Author Topic: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL  (Read 21765 times)

Hamish

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Re: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2012, 10:41:51 PM »
I tried to find the game you made for last years 7DRL comp but the link no longer works. Any chance of makinf it available somewhere? I'd love to see it.


guest509

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Re: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2012, 04:05:25 AM »
Sure. It's kind of embarrassingly bad in hindsight. Many typos. Some wonky rules. But I'll link it. It was on megaupload for a bit. But that site went down. Government crack down.

http://uploading.com/files/21a12f55/Rogue%2B-%2BThe%2BCardlike.rar/

  Lemme know if that doesn't work. Never used this site before.

-Jo

guest509

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Re: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2012, 07:30:41 AM »
  Going back to the Zero FPS genre of game design has been fantastic. Coding was just beating me down.

  I'm putting together a list of the content I might want in my card game and have seriously rediscovered the joy of design. Secret Doors? Yes. Character Classes? Maybe. Keep the old combat system? NO!

Simplify without dumbing down. What a challenge! And fun.

It is surprising how much rogueness you can keep in a card game. Randomly generated dungeons with randomly spawned beasties are easy to produce via card mechanics. Card drawing makes a great RNG. Also most of the interesting choices to be made in a roguelike are there. Which item to use when. What to discard. Fight or Flee. Then you add the Multiplayer competitive cooperative element unique to table top gaming. It all just seems to flow.

It's turning into a real love fest up in here!

Influential for me is this boardgame called Dungeon Quest. If you read some of the reviews you will see people loving the fact that each game is unique and lamenting the painful YASD's.
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/71061/dungeonquest-third-edition

-Jo

Hamish

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Re: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2012, 10:02:40 PM »
Thanks for sending me that link, It looks like fun. I'll have to get my friends to have a go at it with me. or maybe I should wait for mark 2 :¬)


I think i saw on rec games RL that you were looking to use graphics for this version. I think you should stick with the ascii, it looked great, a nice nod to its roots. Maybe add colour though to spice things up and aid identification of cards.

Chex Warrior

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Re: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2012, 11:05:27 PM »
I design games and make mods as a hobby, and I think another roguelike card game is a great idea. I don't know what you use to make the game but I wanted to point you at this: http://www.nand.it/nandeck/

It is, simply put, the greatest program in every way for tabletop game designers (and free).

Skeletor

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Re: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2012, 02:04:39 AM »
I design games and make mods as a hobby, and I think another roguelike card game is a great idea. I don't know what you use to make the game but I wanted to point you at this: http://www.nand.it/nandeck/

It is, simply put, the greatest program in every way for tabletop game designers (and free).

Awesome, thank you.
What I enjoy the most in roguelikes: Anti-Farming and Mac Givering my way out. Kind of what I also enjoy in life.

guest509

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Re: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2012, 04:25:27 AM »
  Yes thank you very much. I was writing my own...not pretty!

@Hamish - Like many roguelikes there will be a text version. The reason being many will want a cheaper print out cost.

eclectocrat

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Re: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2012, 07:08:00 AM »
Edit: You know I hear that many developers do not actually play their own games much...Does that seem odd to anyone? I guess the act of creation and the enjoyment of the end product are totally different experiences.

I can understand that in the non-roguelike non-procedurally built world (it's sooooooo tedious), but I personally play my own game more than any other, and I enjoy it. Wonder what other roguedevs do...?

Ancient

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Re: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2012, 12:04:26 PM »
I play Prime a lot. I develop a game because it appeals to me and is fun. This tendency is strong enough to warrant picking up slowly developing project or in BOSS' case to port it because I liked the manual and wanted to play it.

As far as I know POWDER was born precisely because its author wanted a NetHack on his GBA.

Writing programs for the sake of writing programs would be solving problems on websites like http://spoj.pl. Creating a roguelike not to play it seems weird. Especially if you are not paid. I do not have motivation resource points to successfully pull off such a stunt.
Michał Bieliński, reviewer for Temple of the Roguelike

Chex Warrior

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Re: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2012, 12:34:12 PM »
Quote
I was writing my own...not pretty!

Yes nanDECK will make your life so much easier, I remember the old days of trying to make cards in MSPaint. I only wish this program had been around when I was in high school!

guest509

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Re: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2012, 08:32:27 PM »
  I've come to a key design decision with Cardlike. I've started putting together an outline of the rules and such. Note that for the 7DRL I will be concentrating on making it into a video game. So I don't think I'm cheating by starting early...
 
  Anyway the core of the game is the combat system. I disliked how it was handled last time. Every enemy you didn't kill rolled on a chart to see if you die off. It felt wonky. So I'd like to go with a stat driven system like most RPG's. But in a card game you can do it a little differently. You can go with a result based system over a stat based system..

  For example. When you pull a dragon card you see it's stats and hitpoints and what not and start rolling the appropriate dice to see what happens. Roll to hit and damage. Modify for skill, armor and weapon. This is what roguelikes, dungeons and dragons and final fantasy do, btw.

  OR you can have each monster have a different effect on the player based on a dice roll. For example when you pull a dragon the card will say "Roll a Die: 1-4 = The dragon blasts you with red hot fire. Take 2 fire hits. 5-6 The dragon swipes at you with man sized claws. Take 2 hits." Each monster would also have a 'death number' that the player has to roll in order to vanquish the beast. A dragon would be a 6, of course. Probably a red six (fire immunity).
 
  With heavy armor you could ignore rolls of 4-5-6 (or perhaps just ignore 3 hits per turn), with light armor ignore rolls of 6 (or one hit maybe). Ring of Fire Resistance would allow you to ignore any fire damage hits. A Sword of Dragon Slaying would allow you to roll 3 times vs Dragons. A shield of reflection would allow you to bounce back 2 ranged hits worth of damage allowing you two free attack rolls. As you can see one can get very creative with this and all of the stuff is written right there on the card. It can get complex but the complexity comes in small doses because you'll only be getting a card or two per turn.

  The strength here is you do not have to teach your girlfriend how to play an RPG. She just tosses a die and sees "Oh man I got clawed!" So a result approach will make it more approachable. Easy to learn.

  Using stats, however, would enable me to achieve that very roguelike quality of having monsters behave just like players. They'd use the same rules. This would allow allies and what not. Hell you could even play as one of the monsters if you'd like. It also makes it easier to make minor and obvious distinctions. As in 'this monster has more defense'. A result orientated approach would make it a bit tougher to distinguish between monsters at first glance but it allows a certain uniqueness and narrative quality to the game play.

  So what say you all? Traditional RPG style combat with roll to hit and armor class and what not? It's tried and true. Or an easier to play but hard to design experimental result orientated approach?

I think both will be just as easy to program when the 7DRL rolls around.

Psiweapon

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Re: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2012, 08:54:21 PM »
I vote for result-oriented "creature action" rolls rather than stats.
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Hamish

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Re: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2012, 09:20:03 PM »
I second, the creature actions over stats. It plays to the strengths of board games much more.

modifying die rolls is a pain and best left for computers. Monster specific event tables sounds like much more fun to me, especially if you add evocative descriptions.

"1- The ghouls putrefying stench spoils your rations, shuffle them to the bottom of the deck"

guest509

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Re: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2012, 10:49:31 AM »
@Hamish/Psi

  Yeah. It looks like I'll end up going that way. I find it best to avoid anything that feels like math. Any sort of adding or subtracting turns off a certain number of people.
 
  So even a stat system would not have any adding. For example should stats be Att, Def, Mag, Move, Life
Att = Number of dice rolled to hit.
Def = Number the opponent needs to roll in order to hit.
Mag = Number of dice rolled to hit with magic, and number opponent needs to roll to hit you with magic.
Move = Number of spaces one can move. Also affects trap dodge and fleeing.
Life = Number of hits player/monster can take before dying.

There's no real math there. Just recognizing on the dice which are hits. The math comes when modifying stats with items. Wand of blasting gives a magic attack + 3. The Super Sword gives + 5 dice. Get 3 or 4 cards that modify stats and things start to get a little convoluted for the average player.

With a result based approach I can avoid this somewhat. But not completely.

guest509

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Re: Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2012, 02:16:00 PM »
  Other design questions that have popped up are these:

1. To have hit points or not? The original concept was that each hit forced the player to discard a card (item). There were some complaints about not having hit points. I think I'm going to go without hit points for now. The reason being that in the new rules when an enemy hits you and you discard a card the cards will build up at the feet of that enemy. So this simple mechanic increases the reward for other players to try their hand at defeating that enemy. This can get really tense if you drop the Amulet of Yendor. So HP for now. Sorry to those that requested it.

2. To have a map or not? There was no map originally. The idea was that this game should be able to be played in a space the size of the tray table on an airplane. In coach. Anything bigger and I might as well create an entire dungeon crawling board game with pawns to track movement, buckets of dice, etc...I've decided to add an 'advanced rules' section where setting up the map is viable. I'll also add map tile cards allowing you to do this. It will add some complexity to the game as players will start out their turn drawing a tile and trying to place it next to their pawn. It will also allow less player interactivity. Without a map all players are assumed to be close by and able to help if needed (or bribed).

Not all tabletop developers agree, obviously, but one of the goals of a good tabletop game is the facilitation of social interaction. Not to the point of Dungeons and Dragons or some other role playing game. But players should be playing against and/or with the other players. They should be able to help or hinder the other players in some way.

This facilitates what, for me, makes table top games great. That mighty alliance between friends that comes apart when the Amulet is found. The wife that helped her husband with the dragon but then was killed by a trap in the next room before he could help her. The negotiation. The pleading. The hurt feelings.

Computer roguelikes are great. They can give you the feeling of outsmarting the Dungeon Master (we call him the RNG in this circle). But even the mightiest ascension does not lead to your friend bitching at you 20 years later because you back stabbed him in a game of Risk in high school? <--- True Story. His name is Jeff Aichele and he still guns for me over all others in our weekly FPS frag fest.