Talents/Feats/"Special skills"

[Xan]

Ok, so surprisingly enough, I'm still working on my roguelike, the Legend of Siegfried.  For some reason I don't see it listed in any of the changelogs, but in one of the previous versions I added "Special skills" or feats (in ADOM they would be called talents... I suppose class powers would fall under this too). 

For example, characters of the mercenary background begin the game with the Shield Bash feat, which allows them to sometimes make an extra attack using their shield, if one is equipped.  Right now there is no way of acquiring new feats after the start of the game.  There are several ways that could happen:

1) On level-up, or some similar significant character advancement, you can choose from a selection, based on your character's level, stats, skills, etc.
2) Feats may be granted as quest rewards, independent study, or other one-time only specific events.
3) Masters of various professions might offer training in various categories of feats;  in order to gain the feats from them, of course, the character must meet their prerequisites in terms of skills, etc.
4) Other ways I'm not thinking of right now

Probably all of these will be used to some degree in TLoS, but I also want to make one of them the regular or usual method of acquiring new feats... but I don't know which is most appealing in terms of game design that allows flexibility, depends on your previous choices, and yet isn't frustrating or disproportionately difficult to form your character the way you want.

What do you all think?  ADOM, Incursion, ToME 4, etc. proceed mostly, if not exclusively, by (1).  I'm just not sure yet if I want that, so I was wondering what other players/developers thought about it.

[getter77]

Ok, so surprisingly enough, I'm still working on my roguelike, the Legend of Siegfried.

YES!!  


Beyond that, I'd favor a mix of all of the above paired with more robust creation options so as to allow you to start as a low level "whatever" to gain from as a base as opposed to having to perhaps slowly assemble the pieces of your archetype bit by bit.  #1 is tried and true, but 2 and 3 have plenty of spark in them that'd make for a nice change of the dominant pace

Another thing I'd like to see more of, even though I can't remember what game I've seen the idea for originally, is an Oaths or some such System that'd take the Conducts aspect of Nethack and such but add some teeth to it both ways to where it has actual effects on gameplay and character customization versus just a footnote in a chardump---it'd be a good fit for this and many others methinks.

Some randomization in the form of Hidden Potential could also work out pretty well so long as it was an eventual discovery as opposed to something that encouraged start scumming or some such.

[Pueo]

1) On level-up, or some similar significant character advancement, you can choose from a selection, based on your character's level, stats, skills, etc.
2) Feats may be granted as quest rewards, independent study, or other one-time only specific events.
3) Masters of various professions might offer training in various categories of feats;  in order to gain the feats from them, of course, the character must meet their prerequisites in terms of skills, etc.

My roguelike will be using parts from those three. 
On level-up, you can choose from a selection, somewhat like DoomRL.

Every boss, you get the (optional) choice to go to a new village, do a mini-quest thing, and learn a new 'power' from a village elder. To prevent over-powering (and facilitate new gameplay), only one extra 'power' can be known at one time (perhaps a trinket or such that you must be in possession of to use the power?)

[eclectocrat]

I personally don't like handing things out for no real reason, ie because you level up. Everytime you gain something it's an opportunity to increase the story and immersion of a roguelike, you can tie it to a quest, like an ancient book, or a legendary trainer or something. Just pressing a key after you gain a number of points is kind of boring (to me).

So of your choices, both 2 and 3 are so much more interesting than 1. Try tying feats to a location (a famous training hall), an item (a book or enchanted X), person (trainer), or action (if you can get past tons of enemies to location Y without killing anything, you have developed a new level in sneak, for example).

My 2c.

[Pueo]

I personally don't like handing things out for no real reason, ie because you level up.

What if the game tracked what you did for that level, ie, how many monsters killed, or how many 'assassinated', or how many floors you went down, and then gave you a trait based on that? For example, if you went down 7 floors without leveling up, you would gain a point in speed, or if you assassinated 14 monsters, you gained a point in stealth, or if you used knives exclusively, you gained a point in Knife work.

That would play upon 'practice makes perfect', in that to gain levels in a certain skill, you have to practice that skill. That would also make the game more immersive, by not getting into the "If I put 2 points here and 5 points here and 7 points here..." mentality, but  by altering your skills to adapt to your playstyle.

[RogueMaster]

I would make a mix between "read book" and "level up to get talent point":

to learn a new skill/talent you have to find a book or NPC. After you learn it, you will get talent or skill points to enhance the known talents or skills. This way the game is immersive but also rewarding. I would never play a game where i need to search a lot just to get a simple skill. Without game rewarding, the game will be doomed because it will not be funny. And being sincere, this is one of the strongest point in Stone Soup.

[Hamish]

I like what Getter and Pueo have said about conducts and challenges. It would create a lot of nice interaction and encourage different styles of play to have the grand master of shadows test your sneekyness to see if you are worthy of the smokescreen spell (or whatever) - ideas like that would be a lot harder to implement in other game genres.