Roguelike Radio podcast

[Z]

Or, alternatively, someone who likes Diablo and can explain why we were being elitist by hating on it 

Since most of us that talk on the show are fairly progressive in thought, is there anyone with a more traditional viewpoint that would be interested in standing up for what some term elitist views?

I think these two are different kinds of elitism, in Diablo episode it was like "this game is so badly designed compared to our games" (I think that Keith Burgun often makes similar statements), but as far as I understand you want someone who is like "VI keys are clearly the best control system and ASCII is clearly the best UI, so other options are a waste of time" (why not find the threads where such people discuss?). Krice seems elitist about what can be considered a roguelike, but I am not sure whether this is what you want (although saying that 4-directional is not a roguelike would probably count).

[Darren Grey]

We've done the episode, just waiting for the edit.  But yeah, both types of elitism were discussed.

Regarding the episode ideas, T-Engine and libtcod are both planned for the future, as I think it's worth discussing their strengths and weaknesses.  More code detailed ones are difficult though I think - it doesn't lend itself well to discussion, and is better expressed through blog or wiki posts in my opinion.

[Darren Grey]

Well here's the episode:

http://www.roguelikeradio.com/2012/07/episode-42-elitism.html

Not re-listened to it myself yet.  It was a bit messy to record as Ido kept losing his connection.  Also I think we both wanted to talk about different things at various points, which made it a little incongruous.  Hope it's enjoyable regardless!

[kraflab]

Hmm, now the on page player is broken for me in chrome as well

Listening to the mp3.

[PTrefall]

Got this last night, looking forward to listening to it today! An episode on Spelunky sounds awesome too!
Edit: Another great episode, though it was a bit short for my walk... Sounds like I have to go and read up on the Diablo episode comments now
Loved Ido's "..but is it a roguelike?" at the end!

[Krice]

Darren sounds exactly like Hugh Grant. Wait.. what if he is Hugh Grant?!

[Darren Grey]

Hugh Grant?!?!  I'm not pleased 

Regarding your blog post, Krice, I do agree that the RL community is generally better than most when it comes to elitism.  But open source can lead to its own elitism (see debate about OpenLeft etc, or the attitudes to Thomas Biskup for being closed source).  And about accessibility, it's about ease of approach not making the game easier.  A game can be very complex and challenging and still be accessible.  Much of it is about conforming to modern interface standards, not just in-genre standards.

[Krice]

Hugh Grant?!?!  I'm not pleased  

Don't be sorry. You have nice voice, you should really be on radio.

Much of it is about conforming to modern interface standards

Modern doesn't equal better. When I think of command per key it's a good way to handle commands, even it means the player has to memorize more keyboard commands. Or rather it's just another way to do it. However I think less used commands should be placed in a menu (like save/load game etc.) It's possible to improve user interface, but do it with style.

[PTrefall]

Wouldn't a modernization entail having mouse-interface AND keyboard-shortcuts though? You'd ease players into the game with the mouse-interface, but ultimately to play the game efficiently you'd want to use the keyboard shortcuts? So perhaps the key per command doesn't suffer that much from modernization of the UI?

[AgingMinotaur]

A good interface should probably reflect the developer's preferences. (Even though, of course, developers have their blind spots, stuff like multiarch support is good, etc.) Personally, I don't really see what all the fuss is about. So I didn't find it the most captivating episode thus far, but had a nice time doing the dishes with it

As always,
Minotauros

[Darren Grey]

If that was every dev's approach then a lot of games would only have vi-keys  :/

[Quendus]

The other way in which the roguelike community is unelitist is that a one-person development team with no skill at making sprites or writing prose can make a game and have it judged based on its gameplay, rather than on first impressions of its appearance.

But then there's the problem of all those threads in the Development and Early Development Feedback sections of Roguetemple with only the author's and/or getter77's posts... Bay12forums seems to be better in this regard, but given the volume of traffic pushing threads without replies down, this might be an illusion.

If that was every dev's approach then a lot of games would only have vi-keys  :/

I'd worry about the roguelikes with emacs-like shortcuts in that case. Want to tunnel through that wall? Do control-shift-T then alt-j.

[st33d]

A good interface should probably reflect the developer's preferences.

You need to play some of the Dev Log games on TIGSource to find out why this sentiment is utterly, utterly wrong. Developers often have the least idea of usability. Developers are also notoriously lazy.

I think what you need is an entry point for newbies, but support the wishes of the hardcore players. The hardcore are going to play your game the most. But the hardcore may not become hardcore if you don't let them pick up your game quickly.

[getter77]

But then there's the problem of all those threads in the Development and Early Development Feedback sections of Roguetemple with only the author's and/or getter77's posts... Bay12forums seems to be better in this regard, but given the volume of traffic pushing threads without replies down, this might be an illusion.

Well, one can never tell really how such things will pan out---I would say the Dev board in particular is at one of the livelier periods I've seen since I first found this place.  Bay12 is a phenomena in terms of latching onto a few things at a time with great fervor and the large masses of DF folks. There's a lot of diaspora going on in terms of the games that've yet to strike it big---one thing I've suggested in times past is for Roguelike releases, should the devs think to/feel up to it, to include the Roguetemple URL ingame at the main menu start and whatnot screens so as to get more of a hub going for those projects not aiming for the headache of an exclusive forum unless things get wonderfully hectic.

[AgingMinotaur]

A good interface should probably reflect the developer's preferences.

What I meant by this was not that developers should opt for making their own lives easier by making interfaces unusable by anyone other than themselves (obviously, I would have thought ). But rather that a good developer who is concious about UI issues and what kind of game (s)he is trying to make, will be the better judge of which UI suits the game. Regurgitating that "mouse/keyboard is better", or that "big/small commandlist is better", etc. totally misses the point, namely that every game is different, and therefore needs a different interface.

As always,
Minotauros