ToME 4 - Discuss it here!

[Omnivorous]

Just curious about how you "hardcore" RL-players feel about ToME4..

[Darren Grey]

I find it interesting how it gets rid of much of the complexity in item and environment interactions, but instead has a lot of complexity in combat abilities.  Makes for quite a different feeling game, but very much still has that roguelike feel with discrete turns and procedural content combining to make fun and tense situations.

I quite like the interface myself.  The mouse use is mostly very intuitive, and the different windows and bars are generally well done.  I've not tried using keyboard alone very often, but it seems to work well for this too.  I'm not too fussed about the graphics and music, but they're not offensive either, so I keep them on usually.

The difficulty level is pretty good at present.  I've gotten far with a few chars, but never won.  Deaths have almost entirely been through overconfidence.  Early game isn't too hard unless you encounter some out of depth stuff, but I hear a new AI for the next version will make many enemies much harder.  Class variety is nice and keeps replayability good, in spite of the linearity of dungeon progression.

The most remarkable thing about the game, as a roguelike, is the pace of development.  The number of updates is insane, as is the huge breadth of changes that come with each one.  And this is from a guy with a wife and a full-time job.  It puts the likes of Thomas Biskup and the Angband dev team to shame.  It also puts to shame all the people working on projects in the background that have released little after years of work and spend all their time griping about other people's games (not naming anyone in particular... )

The game is still in beta, and it is both exciting and worrying to think how it may change.  I've not liked all the latest changes (such as an extra lives mode for new players), but then some things have been done extremely well (like replacing potions and scrolls with cooldowned abilities).  The new graphics look quite astounding in areas, but overall for a roguelike that's not something I care too much about, and I'd worry if it became important to the game.

[getter77]

Much potential to it, particularly the T-Engine 4 that is growing with the game and should come to be an iconic one for ease of getting other Roguelikes into existence so long as special efforts are taken to get the ease of use boosted up proper.  Though I still have hope for Sharplike, Neon, RoguelikeGCS---ToME 4 seems to have the most robust and lively dev environ which grants it much via momentum alone, to say nothing of the growing and active community springing up on the boards there.

[jim]

I'm not crazy about it...

...but I spent about 10 hours playing it over the last couple weeks. I guess I'm majorly (unfairly) predisposed against it because I hate the *band town setup for whatever irrational reason and I also am not a big fan of WoW-style fighting, where it's all about queueing up tons of abilitites with cooldowns of varying lengths. It feels kind of mechanical to me and takes my attention away from the sense of adventure and excitement.

So yes. Don't like the design, don't like the philosophy of the battle system, and spent a long time playing it anyway. Aside from the fact that it's a roguelike, it's not my kind of game. And yet I enjoyed it. Pretty damn impressive, if you look at that way.

[Omnivorous]

I agree with most things being said here. I chose to play in "Normal", and have died about 10 times now..kinda looking forward to this character getting killed for good, cause it doesn't feel like a RL but a RPG atm. In my opinion, what RPGs referr to as "Hardcore" should be called "Normal" in a RL!

Other than that, I like it quite abit. I do have some problems with keyboard-only, and like with every single RL I have ever played, I have to toggle between: "Numlock ON = I can move with keypad", "Numlock OFF = I can now hold shift+direction to run" This is the same for when trying to freelook-targeting (or look).

Also, I kept looking for the cost of using infusions, scratching my head, until I understood..it doesn't have a cost! Earlygame felt really easy until my wizard got murdered by the first boss.

And I don't like the maze-layout. 1-grid corridors into infinity is not challenging, not to fight in and not to find you way in..it's just boring. I hate the fact that I will have to run through that maze with every character I make in this game. I also hate the suicidal bastards on every 5th floor or something that asks for your aid, then rushes off screen into certain death..I guess I can just decline helping them if I obsess about clearing all quests!

Anyway, I like it alot..first ToME I've liked since the original, and quite a suprise.

[Darren Grey]

Latest version has the game mode names changed (at my request).  I personally can't stand the idea of extra lives.

Maze doesn't have to be done if you don't feel like it.  Pretty much all early dungeons are optional and can be done in different orders, though that's not always advised.

[jim]

After many such ill-fated escort missions, I slowly learned (I think) that the folks you're trying to guide to the portal kind of intuitively know its general direction. They will charge to their deaths if they see monsters, but I believe that the main reason they seem to deviate from your course aside from suicide by monster is that you're not headed toward the portal. So what you can do is use them as a kind of divining rod.

Still very hit or miss, but since the rewards are potentially huge for success, it seems fair. The stakes remind me of portals in Crawl - dangerous, uncertain, but potentially very rewarding.

EDIT: Man, you know, the more I play it, the more it's not my kind of game. Every time I fight something that poses a challenge, I have to queue up all this stuff... and since there's no need to eat, sleep, or drink, and since wandering monsters are really a nonissue, there's no reason not to wait until the cooldown times out between battles. Gah... it's maddening to me when the most cautious playstyle is so gleefully rewarded. If I'm not feeling the pressure, what's the point? Alright, that's all I've got to say about it.

[getter77]

I think you are supposed to be able to give some temp commands to Escorts now, even if just stop and "move elsewhere".   Perhaps the hardest difficulty would jive more with your style jim, or one of the odder classes that the "wait" mentality doesn't work for?  One is powered by "hate" essentially to where if you aren't in combat often then you will often be in trouble when it starts after a dry spell...

[Krice]

After many such ill-fated escort missions, I slowly learned (I think) that the folks you're trying to guide to the portal kind of intuitively know its general direction. They will charge to their deaths if they see monsters

This happens mostly in all games that have escort missions. Unless you can order the people stay behind and wait in a spot without moving. I think developers use escort missions when they try to drive players mad. Or alternatively when they don't have any idea about good game design.

[kipar]

After many such ill-fated escort missions, I slowly learned (I think) that the folks you're trying to guide to the portal kind of intuitively know its general direction. They will charge to their deaths if they see monsters

This happens mostly in all games that have escort missions. Unless you can order the people stay behind and wait in a spot without moving. I think developers use escort missions when they try to drive players mad. Or alternatively when they don't have any idea about good game design.

You CAN say them to stay for several turns (this feature was added in beta 19) - so perhaps darkgod have ideas about good game design.

But sometimes this command is not enough - these guys aren't very patient (for example they won't stop if they see the portal just in few steps from them).

[Darren Grey]

The escort quests remind me of the cute puppy quest in ADOM - frustratingly difficult, especially when the bloody eejit goes running off to fight a troll on its own, but can still be a bit of fun.  Of course ADOM also had the option of murdering the puppy, throwing it in the tiny girl's face and then picking it back up and eating it in front of her...  ToME does give an achievement for killing several escorts yourself, but that isn't quite as satisfying.

[jim]

Perhaps the hardest difficulty would jive more with your style jim, or one of the odder classes that the "wait" mentality doesn't work for?  One is powered by "hate" essentially to where if you aren't in combat often then you will often be in trouble when it starts after a dry spell...

I do play on the roguelike setting... not quite ready to face hardcore because it just seems like it'd be more fixated on the queueing stuff up from the get-go... things would be even slower.

I haven't unlocked the american psycho class yet, but you're right, that might be an interesting change.

Alternately, what I would like to see is a single "refresh" keystroke that recharges all mana, stamina, skill cooldowns, and HP using the most expedient means available. I might even want a designated "auto-refresh" on/off switch, something that powers you back up to full when there are no monsters around, perhaps one that automatically turns off when there is an escort mission (or the like) involved. In the words of my favorite band, "if you're gonna do wrong, buddy, do wrong right."

[Fenrir]

Of course ADOM also had the option of murdering the puppy, throwing it in the tiny girl's face and then picking it back up and eating it in front of her... 

I can but wonder to myself "why didn't I think of that?" It never once crossed my mind to eat the puppy.

[Darren Grey]

Well, it actually curses and dooms you, on top of being rather a chaotic act, so in spite of how fun it is it's still not advised.  (Talking to the tiny girl after you've done yields some funny messages though.)

[Omnivorous]

Hehe, my first game in ADOM I found out about the protector of Terinyo...first turns was spent towards trying to harvest some early XP in-town.. As for the puppy, I got so annoyed with the quest (since I spent several characters inorder to get down to the puppy, only to find it dead over and over) so I started every game by going down to pick up the dead puppy, eat it, then go on with my day.

As for ToME4.. Isn't basically the "R"est button an "autorefresh"-command? I kinda wish it wasn't so easy to just inbetween battles, autorefresh everything aswell. Because at times when fights are tough, it doesn't feel challenging, it just feels inconvenient. And when fights aren't tough, it just feels -too- easy.

I wish the combat-system was used like it is, because regular monsters require somewhat skill..but that harder foes would require more thought (for my figther for example, all tough fights have been resolved like this: Fight till hp is low. Teleport away. Rest. Repeat.)