Restricted Actions

[AquaTsar17]

So far I've noticed roguelikes tend to have all actions available at the beginning, and I'm wondering whether a variation of that would be good or bad.

Basically, I've considered using 'key items' of some sort to provide an available action. Such as requiring a shovel in order to dig. This would turn a 'dig' command into 'use' command on the 'shovel' item, or something similar. However, that would also mean you cannot dig without a shovel. Another idea would be requiring a quiver before you could get arrows to perform a ranged attack. The newer Zelda and Harvest Moon games use this mechanic, as I'm sure other games do.

Does anyone see potential pitfalls with this idea? I'm sure there could be some actions that may be annoying, such as not being able to attack without a 'weapon' item, but I'm hoping that having a smaller set of actions at the beginning would not be detrimental.

[Ex]

MetroidRL does this quite successfully. The only real drawback is if the player can't reach an item that's required for advancement, or if the player receives an important item out of order. The Metroid series has done this sort of thing since the beginning, and there were plenty of games in even the early 80s that had similar mechanics.

[ywgdana]

A lot depends on the nature of the game you are trying to create (and it's something I've scratched my head a bit over too).  Games like Zelda often have one solution to a problem whereas some roguelikes try to allow chances for creative problem solving and interested situations and combinations.

To draw an example from nethack, there are magic markers in the game that let you write magic scrolls, but you can also write on the floor with certain types of wands to achieve different effects.  Shooting gems with a sling also has different game effects in some situations.

If you disallow the write command unless the character has a quill or pen or whatever, you are closing the door on the more varied possibilities (and if your write command offers the player the chance to write with a wand you're sort of providing spoilers).

That said, if you don't plan a nethack-style game (Angband is very strict in what its items are used for and it's a fine game) then you can probably do a nice streamlined user interface.  This might be especially good if you were making a roguelike for a mobile device or console.

[AmnEn]

For some obscure reason context sensitive (or partially restricted actions) keys are generally considered a really bad thing for a roguelike. I don't quite get the reasoning behind that but while it might technically be a good idea to go for a more intuitive input you can expect your roguelike to be shunned because it breaks with an archaic tradition which was born out of historical limitations.
Just mentioning that you might get some negative feedback if you go down that road.

[Yyrkoon]

I'm not sure I really get what you're saying.  There are many actions in many roguelikes that are not useable until the proper item is equipped.  For instance even though the dig command is available.  Until you equip a shovel, pickaxe, or at least a weapon that can be used as an improvised digging implement it's a useless waste of time.  You might as well be digging into a permenent wall.  If you are suggesting that various skills/abilities should be acquired via level gain or through the introduction of say an item with special abilites, I don't know that it hasn't been done.  Hitting control T in nethack doesn't teleport you unless you've met the prior conditions to be able to teleport.  Is it the fact that you don't like the messages telling you can't do something that you're trying to alter?

[Vanguard]

Generally in RLs with magic the player starts out knowing no or only a few spells and then picks them up as he goes, so there's one set of commands that are typically restricted until they're unlocked later.

[AquaTsar17]

Wow, that was a fast response!

For some obscure reason context sensitive (or partially restricted actions) keys are generally considered a really bad thing for a roguelike.

This I was aware of, and I think ywgdana provided a nice explanation of why. The freedom to perform a variety of actions with the same set of objects (actions that may not be obvious) is a particular highlight of roguelikes, but not all of them do this.

There's also the fact that although the action is available it often does nothing. I've tried digging in Angband without a shovel and realized, as Yyrkoon said, that it's actually pointless; why even allow it? It's allowed because of how the commands were created.


So, from this I'm guessing that key items need to make sense (or at least be accessible when they should be), and I also need to recognize that restricting the freedom of use on items can be detrimental. This at least provides some guidance on how to organize the commands and possible actions of the game.

Really, what I wanted to do was create a progression of useful items that increased the capabilities of the player (though the capabilities of the player's character could just be improved over time as well). My concern was that it would be detrimental, but actually now that I think of it (and think of how Metroid did this) there was also the notion that the new commands opened up more of the game. It wasn't just that you couldn't get past this wall without a shovel, you could explore so much more of the game with one.

So if I want to go down this path, I'm guessing I need to make a game that has a lot of hidden secrets that get unlocked the further the player progresses through the game (and make sure it isn't tedious for the player to revisit old areas).

On that note, do people prefer the range of uses items have (such as in Nethack, Adom, and to an extent IVAN) or do you think having that makes the game more complex than necessary? Assume the game is supposed to be larger than a 7DRL.

[Vanguard]

On that note, do people prefer the range of uses items have (such as in Nethack, Adom, and to an extent IVAN) or do you think having that makes the game more complex than necessary? Assume the game is supposed to be larger than a 7DRL.

It depends on the execution.  Some item uses in Nethack are cool, but as with most of Nethack's content, a lot of the uses are obscure and more or less require the player to use spoilers if they want to play effectively.

I consider Mage Guild to be a shining example of versatile items done right.  Every potion can be mixed with another potion to get a different effect.  They can be combined with jewels, crystal balls, and amulets to accomplish all kinds of different things.  Some of those can be further combined with other items, such as your character's staff, to do something else.  Nearly every item in the game has multiple uses, or the ability to combine with another object to get a new function, and nearly every combination is useful in some way.

[Xecutor]

For no particular reason I recalled horadric cube