"Extended ASCII"

[Fenrir]

Using C++ & pdcurses

I store all the characters that I print to the screen as integers so I can use the characters from code page 437. When I was developing with Dev C++ it worked, but as soon as I switched over to Visual C++ Express Edition it stopped displaying those characters. I don't know the first thing about "code pages", so I've no clue why this happened. Why would switching IDEs cause this?

[Krice]

I don't know the first thing about "code pages"

You could try to set the character set in general options to "not set". I had to set that to get SDL work in VC++. The problem is most likely related to character set. I don't know how modern OS is emulating console codepages (is it possible to choose them), but back in DOS age there was no standard codepage, each countries or regions of world had different codepages. Some contained more graphic symbols, others had extra letters needed for language reasons.

[Fenrir]

I discovered that I need to use the Unicode values for the symbols instead of their decimal values. Thanks anyway, Krice.

[Z]

I am not sure, but I think your characters might still not be displayed for some people (because they live in a different country and don't have these characters)... better to avoid extended ASCII, or have it as an option.

[Etinarg]

If you aim at the old terminals, then Z is right, and only 7 bits are save to address characters in a portable manner.

The major OSes these days have little problem to show text in an otherwise graphical window - if that is acceptable, unicode fonts will be available on all of these systems, and you can use a much bigger set of characters. Also, some of the terminals may support unicode - still you will most likely lose the ability to run such games over telnet. Question is, if this is really a problem anymore today, or if one can drop this requirement.

[purestrain]

Drop ASCII as a whole... its almost 2010 !

[Etinarg]

Drop ASCII as a whole... its almost 2010 !

Working on it 
http://www.roguetemple.com/forums/index.php?topic=487.msg4289#msg4289

[Fenrir]

An expression of horror and rage sweeps across Fenrir's face.

ASCII shall never die!

[Etinarg]

If we speak about Roguelikes, there always will be traditional ASCII ones, I'm sure. Just look at the retro trend in other game projects. People like the old times, and want to preserve them. Don't you worry. It's like an open fire - people enjoy central heating in their houses, but in spite of all the comfort, they just don't feel like an open fire. And so people go camping, and enjoy an open fire in the evening

In terms of business applications and such, Unicode is taking over though - support for east-asian and middle-east languages requires that. Maybe that's like everyone wants central heating now in their houses

[Fenrir]

The great wolf wipes the foam off his mouth with a forepaw.

I was never worried about you killing ASCII; I was appaulled at your heretical talk! One may as well say that humanity should abandon books. Who needs to read when we have movies? Bah! Long live ASCII!

ASCII is more than just clinging to old days; ASCII gives the imagination freedom. A player is free to fabricate his own world from the abstract symbols. He is not fettered by graphical constructs from an artist's mind. We may be playing the same game, but it will be different in the minds of each of us. That is the true spirit of roguelikes: no two games are the same.

Bow and be humble before the might of ASCII! All hail ASCII! Glory to ASCII!

Fenrir's praise slowly deteriorates into deranged rambling.

[purestrain]

ASCII is not a spirit; it was a restriction back in old days. The most stupid thing up to day in roguelikes is to render pictures with ascii - although it may be a different kind of art. But if you just need imagination to play a roguelike, why do i need animatld fire, ascii rendered pictures, colors?

Even very abstract graphics like wayfarer are much better than most ascii tweaks & workarounds imho.

The other extreme are purely 3d roguelikes (if the developers can't do it right) - textures, lights - but everything bad texture and model makes it worse.

Its almost 2010.

[Anvilfolk]

I'm fine with it as long as it's text-based and doesn't have tiles. I hate tiles.

[Gravecat]

Even very abstract graphics like wayfarer are much better than most ascii tweaks & workarounds imho.

I'm inclined to disagree there; while I mean no offense to the artists who make roguelike tilesets, I cannot stand playing them with, and tend to find ASCII much more appealing for the format. I'm sure I can't be the only person out there who feels this way.

There seems to be plenty of people on both sides of the line, but I for one will support ASCII in roguelikes (even rendered ASCII in a graphics windows) until the day I die.

[Ex]

I think tiles tend to attract a wider user base, who eventually move on to the ASCII version. The Crawl poll showed that a lot of people who play crawl either play the tile version currently or started with the tile version. With Dreamhack and Grendel's Mother, I've only ever had about 1 download per day, where as the tile based Crawl gets many, many more than that. Of course, this isn't a fair comparison since Crawl has been around for so long and is so popular.

Still, I think that tiles and better graphics in general attract new players. I've read a lot of stories related to the crawl poll that go something like "I use the tiled version to show my family and friends." Since most of our distribution is likely word of mouth, graphics may particularly help us reach new audiences. The entire computer industry moved toward better graphics in part because it was attracting so many new users.

That's not to say there is no room for ascii! The crawl poll also showed that a lot of the people who started with the tiled version moved to the ascii version. I just think that a tile based or graphically pretty mode is nothing to be ashamed of in roguelikes these days. Better graphics can lure new people in, and I think that's something to be supported. Especially since there are no more commercial tile based games anymore, anyway.

Better graphics are like better advertising, they lure in more people. I'd personally love to see what developers came up with as graphics for their roguelikes..