ADOM Play #1

[guest509]

  I may have fired up ADOM before, I dunno, but this is the first time I really gave it a go. I have prerelease 5, the free and open release right now.

  Well, I walked around and found a town, but didn't know how to enter, I didn't bother looking at the help menu. Dumb.

  Took a few steps and ran into 100 jackals. I tried to run, but they were on me and I couldn't flee. So I bumped the shit out of them. Turns out an elvish fighter can just bump away with impunity versus these guys. I leveled 4 times in the melee.

  Once they were all killed I found all kinds of gear they were carrying. Jackals don't have hands, but they were carrying all kinds of goodies. Girdles and weapons and magic clothes and what not.

  Sweet. Good start. An epic and gainful jackal battle royal. So I left the battle screen, took a step toward the town where I hoped to sell my loots, and starved to death.

  HA! Must have been a long fight.

Jege: Level 4 gray elf fighter. 1183 xp. 401 turns. Starved in the wilderness. Score of 1143.

[Skeletor]

Pay attention to jackals next time.. Thomas Biskup has a very twisted point of view about natural selction ;-)

[Ancient]

Too bad according to changelog the bug is fixed in prerelease #7. Those Jackals can theoretically still get über in #5.

[AgingMinotaur]

Use ">" to enter towns and other places from the overworld map. Edit: And don't forget to eat corpses

As always,
Minotauros

[guest509]

  Oh I had plenty to eat, I just didn't realize I'd use food in the battle screen.

  I had tons and tons of Jackal corpses.

[Skeletor]

Too bad according to changelog the bug is fixed in prerelease #7.

Really? Can't imagine playing Adom without avoiding jackals like plague haha.

[Ancient]

Well, there are other changes. For example spell casting while wielding two shields is impossible. ADOM was the only roguelike where you could have a two-shield tank firing lightning bolts. The change does not affect the gameplay because players would replace second shield with a spear which gives comparable DV bonuses at middle skill levels. However, the unique flavor just took a great hit. Seems ADOM is becoming less like ADOM after the campaign. Pressure to satisfy backers? If so, game quality may take a hit.

[AgingMinotaur]

Seems ADOM is becoming less like ADOM after the campaign.

I'm not following development closely, so I'm not making any predictions. But the same thought has occured to me, and it would be a real shame if the game lost some of its greatness in "v 2.0".

Still, I frankly expect (at least hope) Biskup to do a decent job, even if oldtimers might need time to get used to some stuff like mist elves. (The whole notion of mist elves seems ludicrous to me, but then again, ADOM is filled with quite silly things that are meant to be taken quite seriously – dispersed in the ideas that are genuinely cool; I'm sure mist elves will become as indispensable to ADOM as drakelings.) Anyway, the latest public beta (1.2.5) is quite good, fixing some canonical bugs ("Skillful" talent crashes game, etc.; and of course it's good that the überjackal bug is fixed). In conclusion, if "finished" ADOM turns out to be crap, we can still play the old version And the fact that the first few development releases are overall better than good ol'e 1.1.1 that we've been playing for ages, leaves me rather optimistic than pessimistic.
[/exhaust]

As always,
Minotauros

[Darren Grey]

Well, there are other changes. For example spell casting while wielding two shields is impossible. ADOM was the only roguelike where you could have a two-shield tank firing lightning bolts. The change does not affect the gameplay because players would replace second shield with a spear which gives comparable DV bonuses at middle skill levels. However, the unique flavor just took a great hit. Seems ADOM is becoming less like ADOM after the campaign. Pressure to satisfy backers? If so, game quality may take a hit.

This is a weird complaint...  Clearly wizards and archers going about with two shields was unintended behaviour, and would have been fixed long ago if Thomas were working on it.  Spear + shield is not much better, I admit, but it's a bit less cheap and easy.

ADOM was also the only game where dragons doubled the gold they picked up and shopkeepers could be trivially killed in darkness.  Just because a bug has become established doesn't mean it should be accepted.

Personally I'm quite happy that "pressure to satisfy backers" hasn't become a load of nerds screaming "Noooo, don't change that, noooo!"  The ADOM community has proven itself to be surprisingly progressive in gameplay reform and rebalancing.  No one actually suggested disabling casting with 2 shields on by the way - the complaint was made that double-shielding with casters was ridiculously better than any other option and should be balanced somehow - it was Thomas' idea to implement things as they are.

[guest509]

  Surely the old double shield version of ADOM will still be available.

[Ancient]

Clearly wizards and archers going about with two shields was unintended behaviour

Assumption. Two shields only granted DV bonus from better one suggesting that option was thought out.

Spear + shield is not much better, I admit, but it's a bit less cheap and easy.

Having won ADOM I respectfully disagree. The spear + shield is better because it leaves you means of melee when you need it. Double shield just doesn't compare.

ADOM was also the only game where dragons doubled the gold they picked up and shopkeepers could be trivially killed in darkness.  Just because a bug has become established doesn't mean it should be accepted.

Well, this is a bug. It certainly hurts the balance and has nothing to do with flavor or theme. Since the two shields was nerfed why more overpowered combination of Spartan spear and shield was not?

Personally I'm quite happy that "pressure to satisfy backers" hasn't become a load of nerds screaming "Noooo, don't change that, noooo!"  The ADOM community has proven itself to be surprisingly progressive in gameplay reform and rebalancing.

I like many changes too. Especially breaking RoDS wish engine. Still, I can't help but think some things Thomas does are not for the best. Back when ADOM was running its campaign I was unemployed and missed out on backer benefits. Today I am glad that no money was spent.

No one actually suggested disabling casting with 2 shields on by the way - the complaint was made that double-shielding with casters was ridiculously better than any other option and should be balanced somehow - it was Thomas' idea to implement things as they are.

I have read the thread. Of course it was his idea - just look at the votes. Sure it is not representative (only 13 in total) but does show something. Well, maybe in future he will reconsider. The change annoyed me despite I very rarely use two shields. Two people said two shields were better than other options and their arguments are feeble. Many more argued two shields is unrealistic. TB does not justify his changes. Frankly, he does not have to. In this case it looks to me he was going with the stronger voices arguing you can't point to direct a spell with a shield. As if you need to do this.

For now I'll go with Jo's suggestion.

[Darren Grey]

Assumption. Two shields only granted DV bonus from better one suggesting that option was thought out.

You get PV from both, full DV from both, and full DV from the skill bonus of the higher.  Overall much better than spear + shield in terms of defence, especially since it's easier to train shield marks like this (with a spear you have to train it up to get the DV, which is a chore).  The only reason to wear a spear is if you want to melee things now and then, in which case you're better off with a better weapon than most crappy spears.

I've often argued that many players are way too fixated on the spear + shield combo.  People often stick to it above clearly superior combos.  I've seen flgs with a crappy spear equipped whilst an adamantium longsword of destruction sat in the backpack, all because of this stupid spear obsession.

I've been making suggestions for staffs to be improved somehow for wizards to make them more attractive above spear + shield.  Some change akin to this may happen in future.  The nice thing in general is that things are changing and voices for balance are being listened to.

I like many changes too. Especially breaking RoDS wish engine. Still, I can't help but think some things Thomas does are not for the best. Back when ADOM was running its campaign I was unemployed and missed out on backer benefits. Today I am glad that no money was spent.

Heh, that's the problem with crowdfunding campaigns - everyone assumes they'll get exactly what they want out of it.  But hell, any responsiveness to change is good.  If you want something changed, suggest it!

Also, some of the cool additions totally outweigh any slightly negative changes.  I'd take chaos knights and duelists over dual-shielding any day.

[Ancient]

Heh, that's the problem with crowdfunding campaigns - everyone assumes they'll get exactly what they want out of it.  But hell, any responsiveness to change is good.  If you want something changed, suggest it!

Everyone assumes? Ah, here is the authoritative tone of yours again.

There are a hundred ways one could nerf dual shields. For example having second shield give no bonuses at all. Or even have it give its to-hit modifier but only if negative. That would still retain ADOM's uniqueness and get rid of the imbalance problem. I would prefer that much more since it effectively boils down to one shield plus empty hand defense wise. Sub-par all the way. However, walking through animated forest and casting farsight when it times out would remain convenient unlike current situation.

Also, some of the cool additions totally outweigh any slightly negative changes.  I'd take chaos knights and duelists over dual-shielding any day.

As far as "slightly" really is what it says on the tin. To me that trade is bad.

[Darren Grey]

There are a hundred ways one could nerf dual shields. For example having second shield give no bonuses at all. Or even have it give its to-hit modifier but only if negative. That would still retain ADOM's uniqueness and get rid of the imbalance problem. I would prefer that much more since it effectively boils down to one shield plus empty hand defense wise. Sub-par all the way. However, walking through animated forest and casting farsight when it times out would remain convenient unlike current situation.

Good idea!  Why not suggest it?  I think a lot of people would agree with that over the current situation.