Author Topic: SewerJacks Issues  (Read 17231 times)

corremn

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SewerJacks Issues
« on: February 13, 2012, 10:14:00 AM »
Sewerjacks - the Bloodbowl roguelike.

Since I was having this conversation with Legend (I hope you dont mind me posting it here, let me know ASAP), I decided to put it here incase others have had any issues.

An issues regarding using fullscreen in ASCII mode popped up. On some machines running the ascii.bat will not work with full screen. I have no idea why, but apparently running it from a bat file and running it from a windows short-cut do different things, even though they both call "Sewerjacks -ascii". I will drop the .bat file support for all my games now.

Just had a couple run throughs. I think I see what you meant by static lighting. Unless you plan on making it dynamic somehow in the ascii, I don't think it's that bad. It adds a little character to the levels.
Static lighting in the ascii levels was a thought I had but never really followed through with it, I wanted a flickering atmostphere but I kinda dropped ascii development.

I noticed that in ascii mode, the status bar along the right side of the screen and the right side of the dungeon overlap each other. As in the dungeon shows under the stats like my ally and whether I can blitz. Pretty mucky looking and hard to read.
As for overlapping bar in ASCII, I just noticed that my self, I added it to my to-do list.

The level generation seems to be a little different between the ascii and the tile modes.
Level generation between ASCII and tiles is the same. Sometimes you get a run of similar looking levels. This is just a random artefact. I think anyway :)

Is there a way to make the mouse pointer disappear? Kinda annoying when there is no use for the mouse.
Mouse control is half implemented, but should not be used for ascii. Noted.

It would be nice if there was a message displaying what item you are standing on instead of having to step off of it and use the "l"ook command.
I also noticed that messages do not show up when walking on a item. I guess I play in tiles mode and I can easily see what the item is. Problem noted.

When I use the "o'rder ally command, if I don't press something after a couple seconds, it automatically cancels the command somehow without me pressing anything.
Never noticed that the order command time outs. The text might disappear if you move the mouse though. I will check this.

It would also be nice if when the player uses the "o"rder command, the options are a selectable list like the main menu is being able to use the arrows and enter keys to make my selection.
I have considered a selectable list for the order menu. I might add that as an option. Good idea.

Having a hard time using grabs, throws, and kicks since the enemy is almost always "active" whenever I am close enough to kick, throw, or grab.
Getting the enemy stunned or prone and being able to take advantage of it, can be increased by a number of ways. 1/ Having allies to attack/throw at the enemy, 2/ by being faster than the enemy to attack them before the recover (or use blitz), 3/ pushing enemies into walls to immediately follow up with a kick. 4/ by having mighty hit or strong throw to increase chance of stuns/knockdowns.
Some skills, like dirty player, make kicks much more effective.  Grabs are most effective when surrounded by enemies and you need to escape, or when you want to position an enemy closer to a wall. Works well with blitz.
Not sure what you mean by throw. Throwing takes more time than other actions, so you wont be able to make use of the enemy being knocked down (agility speeds up throw actions).  But it makes it easier to 'blitz attack' an enemy thrower.

What's the dice do?
The dice are a 'secret'. Well not really, there is always another 'item' generated with the dice somewhere on the level. The two are combined some how....

It would be nice if there was a message notifying me that a creature is an ally. I kept trying to attack a goblin and wondering why i just kept switching places with it. Maybe if they had the underscore highlight? About ally recognition, in tile mode evil and good creatures have red or blue armour respectively. I guess I need to add this to ascii mode. In the mean time your allies are listed on the side under your stats.

Anyways. Just some initial thoughts. Very interesting game. I also look forward to the warhammer roguelike.


So do I :)

Just some more comments/questions.

Been playing orc/goblin. Are rats suppose to ignore me cause I'm an orc/goblin? Their state is still hostile, but they ignore me and just swap places with me instead of letting me attack them.

Ok, Sewerjacks was originally written to play good races only and evil races, e.g. orcs/goblins were put in for fun. Rats are evil and therefore dont attack evil characters. I do plan on changing this, so they only are peaceful to other 'rat' creatures.

What's the summoning circle do?
Summoning circles can be 'p'icked up to activate it. They allow random summoning of an ally or enemy depending on the colour of the circle.  I should rename the two summoning circles to make it easier to tell the difference.

What does it mean under the exrtaordinary skills section that
"These skills are not available for upgrades"?

Exrtaordinary skills are only for special and unique characters. And yes if you progress further in the game you will actually unlock extra races/classes. Look out for notes that give you clues on special characters. E.g entering in 'Ratboy' or 'Gandalf' will give you a unique or unlocked character.

A race/class section in the manual would be very helpful. There is very little info on them in the character select screen.
Ok, but there are so many races. But I guess info on the starting races is fair enough.

It would be nice to have a command to go back to the main menu from the mortem screen after the player dies instead of having to exit the program and start it again from windows after dying.
 Yes going back to the menu screen is something I should do. Thanks. I noticed that Infra Arcanum does this and it works very well. Its on the list!

I've yet to find a weapon. :( Only instablitz, charm, pogo stick, dice, and health.
The deeper you go the more regular weapons show up. I guess you have not defeated a goblin fanatic or loony yet, as they drop there weapons.  Remember to kick more when you have a pogo stick:)

Anyway thanks a lot for playing and the feedback. Some good stuff there, especially that you have reminded me to actually support ASCII again. I was about to drop it!!

Cheers.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 11:14:14 AM by corremn »
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getter77

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Re: SewerJacks Issues
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2012, 12:38:36 PM »
Looks like some nice gains to come indeed.   8)
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Legend

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Re: SewerJacks Issues
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2012, 02:31:51 PM »
Quote
It would also be nice if when the player uses the "o"rder command, the options are a selectable list like the main menu is being able to use the arrows and enter keys to make my selection.
I have considered a selectable list for the order menu. I might add that as an option. Good idea.

This one would be much appreciated by myself. As I've mentioned a few other miscellaneous topics, I actually like to use a gamepad when playing roguelikes with smaller command sets such as SewerJacks. Being able to make commands and inventory selections like this with the arrow and enter keys makes doing so much easier.  It is a much appreciated  feature to be able to make selections from menus and especially the inventory in this way from me to the devs when they implement it.

Is there a way to heal Allies? Other than being one of the special classes that is.

Quote
A race/class section in the manual would be very helpful. There is very little info on them in the character select screen.
Ok, but there are so many races. But I guess info on the starting races is fair enough.

Kinda sounded like you were joking a little on that one. Couldn't tell though. Either way, Race/class info should definitely be in the manual. When I noticed the thing about the rats and the orcs/goblins, it made me think that the races/classes may have some specific special abilities. Theses and their specific special abilities and how to use them are the types of things that need to be mentioned in the manual.

The manual is a very important part of any game. Sometimes it gets overlooked and some devs simply say "press "?" " in their game manuals instead of going over all that they should. SewerJacks's manual is quite nice besides those couple things I pointed out.

Speaking of the manual, Terrain types and their affects is also something that should be mentioned in it that I don't recall seeing.

As a board/card game designer, I take a lot of consideration to what goes into the manuals to make sure that all mechanics and game play are described as clear and detailed as possible. I try to anyways. I can understand how it might be a little hard to do though if there isn't much feedback about it, especially in a computer/video game as opposed to a board/card game where the rules are usually the first thing people see when checking it out.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 02:57:48 PM by Legend »

corremn

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Re: SewerJacks Issues
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2012, 11:12:14 PM »
Quote
It would also be nice if when the player uses the "o"rder command, the options are a selectable list like the main menu is being able to use the arrows and enter keys to make my selection.
I have considered a selectable list for the order menu. I might add that as an option. Good idea.

This one would be much appreciated by myself. As I've mentioned a few other miscellaneous topics, I actually like to use a gamepad when playing roguelikes with smaller command sets such as SewerJacks. Being able to make commands and inventory selections like this with the arrow and enter keys makes doing so much easier.  It is a much appreciated  feature to be able to make selections from menus and especially the inventory in this way from me to the devs when they implement it.

Go it. Ok you convinced me, I will implement it and will put it in all my future games.
Sewerjacks generally handles this by blanking out the main screen and showing the menu, perhaps this one would be best handled by still showing the play screen. I will have to think on that.

Quote
Is there a way to heal Allies? Other than being one of the special classes that is.

Yeah allies healing is a tricky one. They should indeed pick up potions, if they dont it is a bug. But only if the stand on it, my path-finding algorithm encourages this. However you can explicitly get them to stand on a potion, with some order trickery. E.g To make an ally stand on a specific square you first order them to hold position then swap positions with them until they are standing where you want.
There may be some bugs with different AI modes where they dont pick up items, but I cant remember.

Also the gain healing when going down a level, sometimes I leave wounded allies behind and pick them up later or order them down the stairs early with the escape command.
Cheers

Quote
Quote
A race/class section in the manual would be very helpful. There is very little info on them in the character select screen.
Ok, but there are so many races. But I guess info on the starting races is fair enough.

Kinda sounded like you were joking a little on that one. Couldn't tell though. Either way, Race/class info should definitely be in the manual. When I noticed the thing about the rats and the orcs/goblins, it made me think that the races/classes may have some specific special abilities. Theses and their specific special abilities and how to use them are the types of things that need to be mentioned in the manual.

Ok, actually while I not joking it does seem like I was :). There are many races/classes to choose from, but you have to unlock them first.  I will add info about the 6 starting races in the manual.  To sum up - Humans have average stats but have access to a variety of playing classes. Dwarfs can take more punishment, have good armour but are slow. They can get quite far in the game once you upgrade they speed. Orcs are similar but evil, but unfortunately you get goblin allies. Elfs are the opposite of dwarfs, excelling at agility/speed, i.e they make the best throwers. Goblins are for fun and for expert players only.
Miscellaneous classes are self explanatory and are hard to get off the ground, especially wizards.

Quote
The manual is a very important part of any game.
Noted, quite often I thought the manual was too wordy but at other times I think it does not contain enough. I will bloat it out and add a quick play readme because as you mentioned computer games you just dive in where board games you have to read the manual.  I guess sewerjacks is based of a board game so it should have a manual to match. Sometimes I just read tabletop game manuals for fun even though I don't have the game.
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Legend

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Re: SewerJacks Issues
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2012, 12:43:35 AM »
Quote
Go it. Ok you convinced me, I will implement it and will put it in all my future games.
Awesome. You rock!

Quote
Ok, actually while I not joking it does seem like I was . There are many races/classes to choose from, but you have to unlock them first.  I will add info about the 6 starting races in the manual.

Yeah. I meant for the main characters available at the start. The secret characters (which I have not found yet) would be cool if they had their explanations done when they are discovered on the scrolls (as I understand that's how they are revealed). Maybe even a way to dump their descriptions when they are discovered or have it listed again in the post mortem.

I think the misc characters could use some explanation to them . I couldn't really see at first how a good healer would be that useful in the game.

I think the manual is pretty good aside from those couple things I mentioned in my earlier post. Most RL's and games in general lack a really good or at least interesting manual these days. Got to touch on the subject of manuals (and sewerjacks) a little bit earlier today.

Quote
Sometimes I just read tabletop game manuals for fun even though I don't have the game.


I do that too.

corremn

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Re: SewerJacks Issues
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2012, 05:06:27 AM »
Looks like some nice gains to come indeed.   8)

Yeah Legend has encouraged me to put out a new version and dangled a podcast "carrot" in front of me.  Hmm a new version of Sewerjacks, a 7drl and WH40k roguelike to develop.  Yikes! I still wanted to "finish" my Warlock of Firetop Mountain game too.
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Legend

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Re: SewerJacks Issues
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2012, 06:29:14 AM »
It's definitely a game that I feel is interesting enough and different enough to warrant further development and a possible feature in a future episode of the RLR podcast.

Just to be clear, the "carrot" was me mentioning that I would like to suggest SewerJacks as a featured game for the show sometime in the future like April or May.

I haven't brought it up to Darren or the others yet and I'm still new to the podcast so I don't want them to think I'm getting ahead of myself.

corremn

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Re: SewerJacks Issues
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2012, 12:42:52 PM »
Yeah I know. I just living the dream :)
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jim

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Re: SewerJacks Issues
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2012, 11:00:56 PM »
Corremn, if you could just quit your job/school, abandon your family/friends, and adopt a steady diet of Dr. Pepper and chips, you could crank out an epic roguelike. Dwarves, dude! More roguelikes about dwarves! Abandoned, once-hallowed halls infested with goblins!

corremn

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Re: SewerJacks Issues
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2012, 10:43:49 AM »
Tell me about it. It used to be that I did my best work in my lunch breaks, now I really need the break as work is hectic.

I was so close to developing TrollSlayer in the that exact game you described.  Unfortunately I am better at designing roguelikes on paper than putting the time into programming them. But it would of been awesome, well at least on paper :P

Dwarfs are extremely underdone in roguelikes, other than the generic add a few points of strength and reduce intelligence and you have a dwarf mentality. I wish someone would really go the whole way with the little buggers... it wont be me for the time being. :(
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XLambda

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Re: SewerJacks Issues
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2012, 10:57:17 AM »
Dwarfs are extremely underdone in roguelikes, other than the generic add a few points of strength and reduce intelligence and you have a dwarf mentality. I wish someone would really go the whole way with the little buggers... it wont be me for the time being. :(

I, for one, have a dwarven concept RL I'm working on atm. !!adamantine sock!! not included. I just hope it works out...

corremn

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Re: SewerJacks Issues
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2012, 11:05:22 PM »
I, for one, have a dwarven concept RL I'm working on atm. !!adamantine sock!! not included. I just hope it works out...

Yay! 7drl or full game? Roguelike or Fortress inspired. P.s I think "Adamantine Sock" would be a good title, even if there were not actually any in the game :)
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Re: SewerJacks Issues
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2012, 07:39:08 PM »
I, for one, have a dwarven concept RL I'm working on atm. !!adamantine sock!! not included. I just hope it works out...

Yay! 7drl or full game? Roguelike or Fortress inspired. P.s I think "Adamantine Sock" would be a good title, even if there were not actually any in the game :)

Full game, just a sweet crawl through a lost dwarven fortress slaughtering loads of orcs and picking up whatever treasures you can find. I tend to emphasize interesting tactical gameplay over needlessly complex stat systems, many of the coffeebreak RLs have shown us how effective simple stats are without making the game a no-brainer.

corremn

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Re: SewerJacks Issues
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2012, 11:13:37 PM »
Full game, just a sweet crawl through a lost dwarven fortress slaughtering loads of orcs and picking up whatever treasures you can find. I tend to emphasize interesting tactical gameplay over needlessly complex stat systems, many of the coffeebreak RLs have shown us how effective simple stats are without making the game a no-brainer.

Good, I will cross TrollSlayer 2 off my list of things to do because you just summed it up ;)
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Re: SewerJacks Issues
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2012, 11:26:52 PM »
  http://store.steampowered.com/app/209390/?snr=1_200_200_252_tab-NewReleasesFilteredDLC_1

  THis is a game called Dungeonbowl, bloodbowl in a dungeon I guess. Thought you might check it out.

-JO