Author Topic: help choosing a game  (Read 51478 times)

gruff

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Re: help choosing a game
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2010, 10:51:37 PM »
IMO: Properties of good skills/exp system:
1) Сonsistency. It shouldn't defy laws of common logic.
2) Fluent? It shouldn't force player to do unnatural things to progress.
3) Balanced.

In order to achieve (really?) 3, Crawl somewhat fails at 1 and 2.

I've thought about this and it's wrong.

1) "Common logic" in your usage means real-world logic. But all of Crawl, and all roguelikes, violate reality. Consider the healing system: you can stand still and go from 1% health to 100% health in minutes. According to common logic you'd be hospitalized for months. So if logic matters, roguelikes are not the game of choice for you.

The only logic a roguelike needs is internal logic - consistency with itself. Crawl has that.

2) "Unnatural" is just a disguised restatement of 1), and therefore not a separate criterion.

3) "Balance" is not a real goal. The real goal of a game is fun. And fun being a matter of personal taste means that not everyone will like the same game. Crawl obviously has very wide appeal. It's one of the most popular roguelikes. Therefore its game systems are successful, in that they create fun for players of the game.

Skeletor

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Re: help choosing a game
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2010, 08:44:13 AM »
IMO: Properties of good skills/exp system:
1) Сonsistency. It shouldn't defy laws of common logic.
2) Fluent? It shouldn't force player to do unnatural things to progress.
3) Balanced.

In order to achieve (really?) 3, Crawl somewhat fails at 1 and 2.

I've thought about this and it's wrong.

1) "Common logic" in your usage means real-world logic. But all of Crawl, and all roguelikes, violate reality. Consider the healing system: you can stand still and go from 1% health to 100% health in minutes. According to common logic you'd be hospitalized for months. So if logic matters, roguelikes are not the game of choice for you.

The only logic a roguelike needs is internal logic - consistency with itself. Crawl has that.

2) "Unnatural" is just a disguised restatement of 1), and therefore not a separate criterion.

3) "Balance" is not a real goal. The real goal of a game is fun. And fun being a matter of personal taste means that not everyone will like the same game. Crawl obviously has very wide appeal. It's one of the most popular roguelikes. Therefore its game systems are successful, in that they create fun for players of the game.

I guess Xecutor point is that a wizard who is challenging some random kobold with his boxing gloves just after defeating a blue dragon with fireballs *is* illogic and unnatural even in a roguelike.
I really like DCSS but I have to say I agree with him. BTW I'm sure the game will be improved a lot in future; developers are very active and caring for what the players want. Xecutor, why don't you tell them your problem?
What I enjoy the most in roguelikes: Anti-Farming and Mac Givering my way out. Kind of what I also enjoy in life.

Xecutor

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Re: help choosing a game
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2010, 11:50:08 AM »
IMO: Properties of good skills/exp system:
1) Сonsistency. It shouldn't defy laws of common logic.
2) Fluent? It shouldn't force player to do unnatural things to progress.
3) Balanced.

In order to achieve (really?) 3, Crawl somewhat fails at 1 and 2.

I've thought about this and it's wrong.

1) "Common logic" in your usage means real-world logic. But all of Crawl, and all roguelikes, violate reality. Consider the healing system: you can stand still and go from 1% health to 100% health in minutes. According to common logic you'd be hospitalized for months. So if logic matters, roguelikes are not the game of choice for you.

The only logic a roguelike needs is internal logic - consistency with itself. Crawl has that.

2) "Unnatural" is just a disguised restatement of 1), and therefore not a separate criterion.

3) "Balance" is not a real goal. The real goal of a game is fun. And fun being a matter of personal taste means that not everyone will like the same game. Crawl obviously has very wide appeal. It's one of the most popular roguelikes. Therefore its game systems are successful, in that they create fun for players of the game.

1) do not confuse laws of physics/physiology/etc and logic.
2) unnatural behavoiur can be very logical. but still unnatural.
3) unbalanced games are usually not fun. balance flaws are exploited and that ruins (at least) some portion of fun.


Vanguard

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Re: help choosing a game
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2010, 04:55:47 PM »
I think the best skill up system is one where you just choose which skills you want to improve when you level up/clear a stage/meet some other goal.  My reasoning is that roguelikes are largely about challenge, and not at all about immersion.  Playing as effectively as you can (as in using the best ability for any given situation instead of using weaker abilities to improve them) is important.  Being realistic in that sense is not important.

Bear

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Re: help choosing a game
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2010, 03:30:59 PM »
I dunno about that.  I shy away from the micromanagement of letting the player pick skills and abilities on each level-up.  That's a subgame that I don't care much for, and for a lot of players it isn't fun.  I like class skills by level a lot.  Simple and done to death because it works. Choose a class at game start and it predetermines what you get on level up for many of your primary skills throughout the game.  Maybe there are options along the way where you choose to concentrate on a subclass, and a "branching" class tree.  But even that's too much micromanagement for a lot of players.

That said, I like for the characters to accumulate buffs and intrinsics during play which differentiate them, and I like at least some of those buffs and intrinsics to reflect the kind of challenges that the character has overcome and the methodology the character's used to do it, while the rest can be the random luck-of-the-draw of items found.  With class/level determining truly essential skills, these buffs can be for optional stuff that has an impact on play style without being necessary for survival.

So, all together, I favor a mixed approach.  Truly essential things should be automatic (including not-enough of some things for player comfort, which is part of the essential challenge of some classes).  A lot of very useful optional things should be awarded for thematic playstyle, to support players who are trying to play some sort of thematic character or develop a particular individual strategy.  And finally, there should be enough luck-of-the-draw to prevent characters from being exactly alike and present each with opportunities and challenges the others don't face.

So, does that, um, "embrace the power of AND" enough?

Bear



gruff

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Re: help choosing a game
« Reply #50 on: October 04, 2010, 04:05:05 AM »
1) do not confuse laws of physics/physiology/etc and logic.
2) unnatural behavoiur can be very logical. but still unnatural.
3) unbalanced games are usually not fun. balance flaws are exploited and that ruins (at least) some portion of fun.

1) Your examples were of violations of realworld laws. The Crawl skill system is perfectly logical: it assumes a set of axioms (kills give xp, certain actions practice certain skills), and adheres to those axioms with complete consistency.

2) Again, unnatural means "violates realworld laws".

3) Crawl is fun, and therefore balanced, for some but not for others. May it ever be thus.

Cap n Crunch

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Re: help choosing a game
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2010, 09:33:13 PM »
I'm an Angband player myself, but if you can find the older (3.14, i think) version of Lost Labyrinth, it's a nice, easy diversion from getting punished by DCSS...well I get punished, but i suck. :D

Please excuse me going off topic, but btw, SC2 is available as Freeware under the name, "The Ur Quan Masters". It's the 3D0 enhanced version.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 07:58:41 PM by Cap n Crunch »
I prefer David Gervais to Ricky Gervais...