4DRL Challenge October 2010

[ido]

Hi,
on the roguelike dev chat room (#rgrd @ quakenet), we have spontaneously decided on a new challenge - the October 2010 4DRL Challenge!

To join in you only need to register yourself at http://typewith.me/kbrJYIJHqT.

The challenge takes place on 23-26/10/10 (Saturday to Tuesday, inclusive), which is in almost 2 weeks from today.

-Ido.

[Kalantir]

Onew of these days, we should have a 1MRL contest... a few days is just not enough time to get a decent game out.  I mean, look at the 7DRL contest... 95% of those are... not that fun.  Nevertheless I shall try anyways.  With 4 days, it seems like an interesting design concept will almost certainly prevail over complexity.  Everybody get in your thinking chair...

Also, will there be any sort of review aftewards of each individual roguelike?  Like... maybe going over what it has going for it, what could use improvement, etc...  I mean, you obviously can't expect much in 4 days, but some sort of review process is good, because it helps developers figure out what they are and aren't doing wrong.

[ido]

Onew of these days, we should have a 1MRL contest... a few days is just not enough time to get a decent game out.  I mean, look at the 7DRL contest... 95% of those are... not that fun. 

But many are interesting, and some are even fun

The problem with 1 month is that it's too long to dedicate for just RL dev, but feel free to announce a 1MRL challenge! I will probably join you if it's far enough apart from the other challenges.

 BTW there is also the ARRP which gives you a whole year.

Also, will there be any sort of review aftewards of each individual roguelike?  Like... maybe going over what it has going for it, what could use improvement, etc...  I mean, you obviously can't expect much in 4 days, but some sort of review process is good, because it helps developers figure out what they are and aren't doing wrong.

Sure, why not.

[Z]

I mean, look at the 7DRL contest... 95% of those are... not that fun.

I don't think this speaks about quality, or is related to the short timeframe. Surely more time means better quality, but 90% of everything is crap (Sturgeon's law), so if 95% of 7DRLs are "not that fun", it is actually quite a good score. Do not compare the average of all entries from a 7DRL contest to the average of the roguelikes you have played a lot (which are probably among the best roguelikes there are). If the challenge lasted for 1 month, I think that 95% of 1MRLs would be still "not that fun", only their authors would lose more time on creating that junk (or maybe not junk, just something that does not suit your tastes).

7DRLs are good for testing original ideas (assuming that they are based on something simple, not on complexity), and if the idea proves good, there is an option to continue for the next month. (That gives me an idea for an incremental challenge: every entrant starts with a 4DRL, better ones advance to the next stage and grow to 7DRLs, then to .5MRLs, then to 1MRLs...)

There was a review board for the last 7DRL challenge, I have tried only those which have obtained good scores and/or were interesting for some other reason. Hopefully a similar review board will be organized for this one.

[Kalantir]

But many are interesting, and some are even fun

That, I can't deny...But unless you've been keeping up to date on all this as they come out(which i definitely havent)...Looking for the good ones is like looking for a needle in a haystack...  I have probably about 200 roguelikes on my comp... No way I'll ever have the time to thoroughly play all of them.  Hell, I dont even remember which ones I've already played... I must have booted up quick quest like 4 times before I finally remembered I had already played it.  Started to make a .txt full of in-depth reviews... but then I never actually felt like writing them so that failed... I dunno.  I'm tired and tipsy... peace

If the challenge lasted for 1 month, I think that 95% of 1MRLs would be still "not that fun", only their authors would lose more time on creating that junk Wink (or maybe not junk, just something that does not suit your tastes).

I partially agree...  I think that in 1 month any given developer would have more time to come up with clever ideas and themes and such... Although you're right that the ratio of fun to not fun would probably not change by much. But I do think we'd have more complete worlds to explore and probably more of them too... I imagine a longer contest would bring in more competitors?  Or maybe the roguedev community is a small one... I dunno.  I've just been watching from the sidelines for awhile while doing my own thing

In conclusion, the good roguelikes would be better, and the bad ones would still be bad(with a possibility of "less bad")  Also, I like your idea of 4drl, then 7drl, etc...If it extended to a 1YRL and the projects were continued from one to the next, then by the time it reached the end, there'd probably be at least a couple full featured, complex roguelikes for us to play(besides the usual...)

[ido]

In conclusion, the good roguelikes would be better, and the bad ones would still be bad(with a possibility of "less bad")  Also, I like your idea of 4drl, then 7drl, etc...If it extended to a 1YRL and the projects were continued from one to the next, then by the time it reached the end, there'd probably be at least a couple full featured, complex roguelikes for us to play(besides the usual...)

Again you seem to ignore the fact that the main reason for the nDRL challenges is to make people finally complete something and release it - not having a tight deadline is a recipe for never-ending development.

The reason for keeping it so short is that we are all busy people with lots of other stuff to do, and it's a lot easier to set aside 4 or 7 days for developing a game than longer periods of time.

I also like the idea of the "continuous" challenges, we should try to set something like that up after this one is done.

[Nolithius]

Kalantir,

As Ido mentions, you are missing the spirit of the nDRL challenges. Much like a game jam, which lasts a handful of hours, the purpose of an nDRL challenge is to funnel your creative juices into a strict timeline, forcing you to cut the fat and focus on putting out a playable game. Again, much like a game jam, the game is far from finished at the challenge's completion, which is why many 7DRLs continue to be developed after the challenge has ended.

The nDRL challenges, game jams, Ludum Dares, the experimental gameplay project, and any development challenges are, in essence, intended for developers to flex their development muscles in working within the restrictions of the challenges.

Restrictions such as those imposed in these challenges help focus the creative process and solidify the concept for a game. For example, you might be bewildered if I challenged you to "make a game"; however, if I challenged you to "make a card game with physical cards, the setting must be post-apocalyptic" or "make a game with a ball, using only ASCII" or "you have 3 hours to make a game, it must use square tiles", your gears might start to turn in your head. This is why, whether they be veterans of the community or newcomers, for many developers 7DRLs represent their first finished game, regardless of quality.

Challenge on!

Ebyan "Nolithius" Alvarez-Buylla
http://www.nolithius.com

P.S.: I am uncertain as to my availability during the 4DRL window. I will sign up as soon as I find out if I will have time!

[Krice]

Even less idea than in 7DRL. You can't expect to get anything playable in 4 days. The only good thing about nDRL is that some of the games may be developed further into real games, but I think people should concentrate on that and not in nDRL contests. I think there are developers who have only 7DRL games made (several of them, never trying to make anything better). That's not the way it should be.

[Nolithius]

You can indeed get something playable in 4 days. Can you make a sprawling world with warring factions, a dynamic quest system, a complex skill tree, etc.? Of course not; that is not the point of an nDRL.

Instead, find the nugget of gameplay that you want to tackle, and focus on that. Cut the fat: inventory system, stats, skills, quests, magic system, NPCs, anything that is not absolutely critical to the core of what you want to do.

With a 4DRL, you might expect to have only an @ walking around the screen, a rough level generator that gets the job done, some simple enemies, a simple combat system, and a winning condition. By no means a fleshed-out, epic roguelike, but a completed game nonetheless.

I agree with you, Krice, that a healthy balance of larger-format games and smaller format games like 7DRLs rounds out a developer. It shows both the ability to tackle projects with a longer development cycle and higher level of polish as well as smaller, more experimental projects. However, it's really up to the individual whether they want to focus on one or the other!

Looking forward to your entry in this challenge!

Ebyan "Nolithius" Alvarez-Buylla
http://www.nolithius.com

[ido]

I think there are developers who have only 7DRL games made (several of them, never trying to make anything better).

Never trying != never releasing 

[ido]

Ebyan "Nolithius" Alvarez-Buylla
http://www.nolithius.com

You know that is already inserted automatically into your sig, right?  You don't need to also manually add it to the end of every message

[guest509]

  Oh shit I missed it man. This really sucks. I totally had the time to join this competition too. Nothing like a deadline to get you going.

  Screw it. I'll do my own one man 4drl here next week. I'll post the announcement soon.

[ido]

  Screw it. I'll do my own one man 4drl here next week. I'll post the announcement soon.

Good luck! 

BTW, the winners are listed at http://mirrormatchgames.com/post/1417473633/finished-4drl-entries

-Ido.