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Messages - Gr3yling

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Design / Re: An old wild west roguelike? Ideas.
« on: November 26, 2013, 11:22:37 PM »
At the very end of the python tutorial I'm using there's a section on file input/output.  I guess I just need to study it so that I can understand the types of things I'm asking questions about.  Thanks for all your help, though.

Zirael, I had a question for you.  have you thought about adding some documentation to the game to explain the mechanics in a little more detail?  I don't have much of a background in D&D, and finding out the details about how certain mechanics work (like how a dex bonus is applied to armor), was surprisingly difficult.

By the way, Dex bonuses in Veins do follow this formula, right?

1. Subtract 10 from the ability
2. Divide by 2
3. Round down
4. Bonus can't go above the max allowed for the type of armor equipped.

Design / Re: An old wild west roguelike? Ideas.
« on: November 26, 2013, 06:41:41 PM »
Greyling didn't run the script in the folder containing, but rather started the python executable in the python executable directory (where can't be found).

So, I'm still confused.  What should I have done?

I am still working on learning the python language in the tutorial that I mentioned earlier, but it's not going to cover things like this, is it?  Is there a resource that has beginner level information about this kind of stuff?  Like, what scripts are, and how to use them, that sort of thing?

Design / Re: An old wild west roguelike? Ideas.
« on: November 26, 2013, 01:38:14 AM »
So, I'm having some problems starting my roguelike. I am trying to follow the "Complete Roguelike Tutorial, using python+libtcod" on roguebasin, link here:,_using_python%2Blibtcod

First, I downloaded python 2.7 and libtcod 1.5.1.  Then, I made a new folder for my project containing several files from libtcod just like it said.  I then went in the python folder, opened python, and tried to type in the first command that the tutorial instructed me to: rename libtcodpy as libtcod.  And then python told me that there was no module named libtcodpy.

Any suggestions?  I'm guessing maybe I need to move more files around, but I don't want to experiment and end up messing something up. 

Off-topic (Locked) / Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« on: November 26, 2013, 12:56:00 AM »
What do you mean separate hot and cold water? In Finland does all water just come out a constant lukewarm temperature?

In Finland, the water is always the right temperature.

EDIT: krice, I request that you do a USA topic next.

Off-topic (Locked) / Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« on: November 25, 2013, 12:26:34 AM »
I've heard it's a primitive place to live, with things like separate hot and cold water, windows with only single window glass etc. Some have said that it can be colder in England than in Finland, because heating is so poorly done.

This reminds me a lot of a certain other topic involving Russians...

Programming / Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« on: November 24, 2013, 11:47:35 PM »
Most of Bioware's "innovations" have been done before.  They aren't pushing roleplaying games forward.  They make watered down versions of things we've already seen and they somehow get showered with praise for doing this.

I wish this wasn't such a divisive subject.  There really is a lot to be learned from analyzing games that other people have made, but I feel like so much of this discussion is about what is wrong with games rather than what could be done to make them better.   

Can we discuss some of the specific ways that you guys think contemporary games could be improved?  What are some specific things that you would change about the more recent Mass Effect or Dragon Age games? 

Also, what are some specific aspects of older games that you guys really liked?  I know Akeley got into this a little bit with Deus Ex, but maybe we could expand on that and discuss other games too.

Design / Re: An old wild west roguelike? Ideas.
« on: November 23, 2013, 08:33:15 PM »
Hey AlexPT, I think you should check this site out:  The pace is much slower than the other site that you linked (which is good for me).  Each concept is broken down into a number of small lessons, and that helps too.  You might like it if you are still getting discouraged with string formatting.

Design / Re: An old wild west roguelike? Ideas.
« on: November 21, 2013, 06:20:17 PM »
Thanks for all your advice, girls/guys.

I've started playing with python a little using the tutorial in AlexPT's link.  So far it does seem a lot easier to understand than C++ (I made a very brief attempt to learn C++ but then stopped because I didn't know if it was the best language to learn for my purposes). 

In python it seems so far that you can learn by playing with the commands, by switching out components and seeing how the results differ.  With C++ it seems like trying to do that usually just resulted in a error.

I, personally, think I'm going to stick with this language.

Programming / Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« on: November 21, 2013, 06:13:50 PM »
I`m sorry guys, but it seems that you managed to completely turn the initial argument over its head. Made "us" look like some kinda sneering monsters who just sit on the sidelines and wait to devour poor game devs and their gentle creations, while also nodding sagely "coz back in my day, son, it was all glitter`n gold, I tell you (cough cough)" with nostalgic fog enveloping the whole scene.

Sorry Akeley.  I don't think of you that way, okay?  And I realize that you have made some valid points.

How about this: what advice would you give someone who wants to one day make a roguelike?  What is the best way you think that the sort of design pitfalls you have been talking about can be avoided?

I haven't been able to read the whole of this thread and others due to sheer volume of text, but from what I've skimmed it looks like some of the disagreements I've seen stem from a lack of understanding of what computers can feasibly do, and what humans can feasibly program computers to do (and how this relates to differences between computer and tabletop RPGs). Would a quick exposition of those issues be useful?

Yes could you please tell us?  That sounds like it would be helpful. 

Programming / Re: Realism in Roguelikes
« on: November 21, 2013, 12:12:24 AM »
While I realize that you're saying you're done with attributes, one other thing I wanted to throw in:

Oh, whatever you want to talk about is fine.  I appreciate your input.  I just figured everyone else was probably getting sick of me asking attribute related questions. 

And as far as the rest of what you mentioned, yes, I think what you are saying definitely makes sense.  It probably is the most sane way to do things, but for whatever reason, attributes make me feel more like I "am" my character.  I'll have to think more about that and the perks/traits ideas, though.

Programming / Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« on: November 20, 2013, 11:57:57 PM »
Thanks Minotauros.  I appreciate the kind words.  I'll keep in mind what you said.

Design / Re: An old wild west roguelike? Ideas.
« on: November 20, 2013, 11:54:56 PM »
Well, dwarves, pheraps, but the thought of a cowboy riding a raptor seems very old wild fantasy west (does this genre even exist, tho? XD)...

You just invented it.  Not many people can say they gave birth to a genre, you know. 

Honestly, somehow it does all fit to me, in a weird sort of way.  Perhaps there was some sort of dimensional confluence, or perhaps the past and future were superimposed due to the discovery of a powerful Mayan (read: alien) artifact.  I'd be interested to hear what you end up using for backstory.

Design / Re: An old wild west roguelike? Ideas.
« on: November 20, 2013, 11:48:39 PM »
What exactly are you trying to do when you say you looked at a tutorial to "learn programming"? What language?
If you're really just interested in making games, and not really that interested in programming, I'd recommend not trying to learn a major language like C++. It'll take a long time for you to even get to the point you're making a game, because you'll have to learn all this low-level stuff first.
Someone mentioned python and libtcod. I've never used python, personally, but I've heard it's a pretty easy language to program in. Libtcod is a library made for roguelike developers that handles a lot of the not-so-fun stuff already (like display and line-of-sight) so you don't have to worry about it. Again, never used it myself, so others here might have more to say about it.
There's also rot.js, which I believe is a Javascript version of libtcod, for developing on the web.

So, here's a question.  Learning Python sounds tempting, but I noticed that Crawl, Nethack, ADOM, and DDA were all written in C or C++ (at least according to roguebasin).  Is it possible to write a game with the types of features that ADOM has using Python?  What are the pros and cons of C/C++ vs python in general? 

Also, how long would it take someone completely ignorant of computer languages to learn python well enough that they could start making a game?  I realize that's kind of a vague question, since games come in all sizes and levels of ambition.  So, let's say we are talking about a game that consists entirely of randomly generated dungeon environments (no overworld map, towns, or non-hostile NPC's) and includes a few classes which are capable of using melee combat, ranged combat, and magic.  Let's say there are also 50 total equipable and consumable items and 30 enemy types. 

Could anyone give me a rough estimate about how long that sort of project would take?  Assume I don't want to use a pre-existing engine because I'm stubborn and irrational.

Programming / Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« on: November 20, 2013, 04:04:16 AM »
Humm, that made me think of this: "Even in the false needs of a human being there lives a bit of freedom.  It is expressed in what economic theory once called the “use value” as opposed to the “exchange value.”  Hence there are those to whom legitimate architecture [or, as it were, good games] appears as an enemy; it withholds from them that which they, by their very nature, want and even need."

Minotauros, I'm sorry, but I'm not smart enough to understand that quote (or the language in that link).  Any chance you could explain what it means?

I agree with lots of your post, Greyling, but here you're being a bit soft on game creators, I think. Sure, they put a lot of effort, made compromises, worked their hineys off to make as good a game as they can. But if the result is just bad, it's the critic's job to say so, with little regard for courtesy. I'm not defending whining masses of players who have nothing to say except "s0xx", but reviewers et al who work to further the medium by discussing the actual flaws and merits of different games. If you can't bear to get negative reviews, you really shouldn't be in a creative job. Moreover, akeley was making a point how executives tend to evoke the image of the struggling artists/content creators when actually furthering their own interests, thus using the creators as a human shield of sorts. And that certainly is a valid point.

As always,

As someone who would like to one day make a game, negativity towards people who make games really scares me.  I feel like Vanguard is just waiting to tell me that whatever I produce is terrible, because it doesn't meet her/his extremely high standards.  It's very intimidating.  And I know there are a zillion other people who feel the same way as her/him.

I do think it's important for reviewers to discuss the merits of games.  And I do definitely want candid feedback from everyone regarding the ideas I put them forth on this forum.  And I want it from everyone, Including Vanguard.  In fact, I highly value her/his opinion, because I know her/his views are so different from mine.

But, Vanguard, because you seem to have such a tendency to dislike games, it’s hard to know how to take what you say.  I honestly don’t know if I can put forth any ideas that you would embrace which weren’t the same as the ideas you already have.  I mean, at a certain point, I don’t know if you are critical of my ideas because they need improvement, or because they’re not *your* ideas.

Also, why did the idea that you were “nostaligic” about some of the games you mentioned upset you?  I’m nostalgic about a lot of games.  I don’t think that’s something to be ashamed of.  Maybe it’s not the reason that you like any of the games you like, and I’m sorry I ever used that word, but I just don’t see how it can be construed to have a pejorative meaning.

I think that “good” games engrain themselves into our brains during our developmental stages in a way that shapes how we see the medium.  And I think that’s really cool.  I would be honored to make a games that people were “nostalgic” about, whether they were critically acclaimed at the time of release or not (like earthbound). 

Is the point that you want to be so coldly objective about assessing games that you are immune from “nostaligia”?  Why?  That sure doesn’t sound like much fun.

Also, it really scares me how easy it is for us, as human beings, to clump people we dislike into easy to hate groups, like “business suits”.  I really, really, really think life is more complicated than that. 

I urge you guys to remember that everyone is just a person trying to survive in this world.  It’s so easy to judge other people, either by their career, or by the quality of the games they make, but ultimately, I just don’t think that’s the point of human interaction.

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