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Messages - Etinarg

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Design / Re: Item pricing?
« on: March 21, 2014, 10:07:34 AM »
I've said "Thanks" to the guy who pointed me to the D&D references first. The discussion could have ended there, it's been fine for me, I had something to start with.

I didn't want to present my project in detail because it's not roguelike in large parts. I was afraid of just being told it's the wrong forum for such projects and not getting any answers at all. That's why I narrowed my question to just this one aspect of the game.

But let's quit this discussion, particularly if it only becoming personal.

Design / Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« on: March 20, 2014, 10:19:15 PM »
Diablo II offered softcore and hardcore (permadeath) modes and both had their share of players. It didn't seem to be particularly unfair, some hardcore players got incredibly far in the game, and softcore playing was very interesting (at least to me) as well.

It might be harder with turnbased games like roguelikes, though ...

Design / Re: Calculating Monster Drops
« on: March 20, 2014, 09:35:25 PM »
My first impression is that I like "scale with monster difficulty" better. If a new player manages to kill a difficult monster and gets great rewards for that it seems to be just fair. If they use exploits to do so, it's their decision, or may job as designer to reduce such exploits.

Thanks for all the thoughts and tips! This has been really helpful.

Design / Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« on: March 20, 2014, 09:29:42 PM »
My personal preference is to play without permadeath. I feel frustrated if my character dies, and I want to play for fun and the illusion of being successful, not for feeling frustrated. [...]
 I don't need to play difficult games in my free time, rather something to relax and spin down.

This, exactly. You are talking about non-roguelike RPGs here. Or even scripted story games like Heavy Rain. Those are great games and genres, but thinking that roguelikes are suffering because they're roguelikes is just odd. It's like saying you prefer a vehicle to have four wheels and so motorcycles aren't as good of vehicles as they could be.

Uh-oh. Misunderstanding here. I usually don't play roguelikes. I've been playing Angband long ago, even tried to make my own variant, but lost interest after some years. Also, the deeper I got into the game, the more I noticed that the cruelty of such games is not my thing. I consider myself kind of lucky to have never seen the parts of the game with the really nasty stuff, that I discovered in the code and library files while working on my variant.

This thread is called "my two cents about permadeath", and what I wrote, that's just been mine. I don't ask people to make roguelikes without permadeath. I just said I like games without permadeath better, and that seemed perfectly on topic for the thread.

I didn't say roguelikes are suffering from anything. Permadeath usually is considered one of the pillars of the genre, it's been so since I am watching the roguelike crowd. I don't want to change that.

In case you ask why I am here then, if I don't like to play roguelikes: I'm around due to some lasting interest in the genre, and the hope to discover new and interesting design ideas. Roguelikes are at times quite creative. Still I usually like other games better.

Design / Re: Calculating Monster Drops
« on: March 20, 2014, 03:37:15 PM »
Tags have the problem that typos often go unnoticed, and an item with a mistyped tag will never drop. But tags are easy and fit in my system fairly seamlessly, so I like the suggestion.

Would you make an easy monster in a hard region of the game give more valuable drops, i.e. base the drops on the region difficulty or on the monster difficulty?

There always was the complaint about "broken sashes" in D2 hell difficultly, but the sash was in the fallen's drop list, even in hell difficulty, because that drop list didn't depend on the difficulty setting. So once it's reasonable, since a fallen still is a very easy monster, but on the other hand, player expected more in the highest difficulty setting.

Design / Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« on: March 20, 2014, 02:17:19 PM »
My personal preference is to play without permadeath. I feel frustrated if my character dies, and I want to play for fun and the illusion of being successful, not for feeling frustrated.

Admitted, there are points when save/reload won't help either, because the character is titally screwed, but the tolerance is higher.

If I have the choice I play without permadeath in a setting that has a "fair" balance between challenge and reward (usually called "easy") and I make my own projects without permadeath by default.

I know other will call this lame, but it is my way to have joy in playing a game. Life is hard enough, and has enough challenges, I don't need to play difficult games in my free time, rather something to relax and spin down.

Design / Calculating Monster Drops
« on: March 20, 2014, 01:51:00 PM »
There are many ways to handle treasure and item drops from slain monsters. I've set my corridor so that in my project I want both treasure and item drops, and that the items should fit to the monster but can still be quite random.

Now the problem is, I'm in the early stages of this project, and I want to design for expandability. So the question is, how to organize monster drop calculations/data so that is easy to maintain and still expandable - also expandable "backwards" so that newly added items will appear for old monsters without digging through 563 monster drop entries in some data sheet.

Diablo II (If I remember right) had treasure classes and monsters were assigned one or more treasure classes instead of drop lists. This way a new items could be added to a treasure class and all monster which could drop from that class now also could drop the new item. Problems were the balance between treasure classes with many items and classes with few items, in order to keep some items common and other fairly rare.

Are there better ideas? What do you suggest, how should I go at this?

Design / Re: Monster ideas for a "color" themed game?
« on: March 20, 2014, 01:21:32 PM »
There's always self-replicating Grey Goo.

The technology level in my project isn't that advanced, but multiplying, acidic grey slimes, jellies or grey oozes surely are an option.

Design / Re: Monster ideas for a "color" themed game?
« on: March 20, 2014, 11:52:32 AM »

The RGB Breaker remidns me from a line of a song about violence on TV (roughly translated) "Death shines in R G B".

We could also have a Colorspace Transmogrifier, sounds kind of terrifiying.

Thanks for the suggestions! I particularly like the "ashen" combinations. "Silver" reminds me of another novel, which had synthetic lifeforms who tried to take over control of a huge space fleet, and who had a silver skin. Too bad that I like silver (or rather metallic) shines, and will have a hard time to make something evil in silver.


I particularly like the Sepiator. Thanks also!

CMYKol and LABlum ...

Design / Re: Monster ideas for a "color" themed game?
« on: March 20, 2014, 10:21:33 AM »
Interesting. I had another novel as source of my idea, but maybe lovecraft had inspired the authors who inspired me ...

Design / Re: Monster ideas for a "color" themed game?
« on: March 19, 2014, 11:06:34 PM »
You might be able to come up with some interesting monsters if you look into what each color can represent. Some examples would be red for anger, green for sickness, blue for sad, white for scared. Things like that might help give you some ideas.

The opposing side wants to steal the worlds colors and establish grayness, which also means unlively, dull, mechanic - briefly, they steal the joy in life. I don't think it'll be right to make them particularly colored. White, black, gray, that should be their traits.

Not all opponents are part of the gray hordes, so there can be colored opponents as well. E.g. animals in the wilderness, or random dungeon inhabitants.
The final version of the project (if it ever gets there) will have 7 differently themed locations to explore, and I think at least one, better three should be purely gray, the others can be more or less colored.

At the moment I'm trying to narrow blurry ideas into a design which I can implement.

The arch evil is the Gray Lord, but the player doesn't necessarily have to kill him to win. The player just need to protect the colors of the world which he can do by retrieving 7 artifacts (the rainbow jewels) which the Gray Lord has stolen.

Now I need some servants and minions of the Gray Lord.

Gray in this game is a bit like undead in classic RPGs, void of life's joy, still living.

The Colour Out Of Space?

Maybe my English is insufficient. What would that be?

Design / Re: Monster ideas for a "color" themed game?
« on: March 19, 2014, 02:35:17 PM »
The color names from the scond are interesting, too, but not for the project, that's right. Thanks for the links, even if it won't be useful for the project it helps my vocabulary :D

Design / Monster ideas for a "color" themed game?
« on: March 19, 2014, 01:12:23 PM »
I'm working on a roguelike-like which has color and the lack of color as the main theme. The player side will be colorful, the others are the gray side.

I'm looking for ideas, which monsters would be fit in as typical gray or color stealing monsters.

Also I'm looking for interesting monster names like "Gray fader", "Minor Bleacher", "Hand of Gray", "The uncolored". If you have ideas, please let me know. English isn't my mothers tongue, and my vocabulary is just too limited to make up good names in this style.


Design / Re: Item pricing?
« on: March 11, 2014, 04:51:01 PM »
I understand what you wish to accomplish but if you don't create something like I described previously (with tables and multipliers to compute the items' final price automatically) you do risk yourself creating unbalanced items, i. e. creating cheaper items that might be more powerful that expensive ones.

Yes. But seriously, there are plenty of more important balance issues in my project than the item price.

Thanks again, but it's time for me to take a break. I'll work on some artwork and let the game design things rest. Usually artwork is fairly relaxing.

And no, the captain obvious part was earlier in the discussion. E.g.

"The important thing is to offer interesting choices.  If people can buy everything they want when they want it, your system is a failure."

I wonder how stupid I must have appeared if someone thinks that this will help me :(
The sentance sure is right, but it's the basics of game design - interesting choices. And of course, put challenges to the player.

But it's alright. My projects use to get nowhere actually, but in the past it was fun to talk about design issues. This project is intended to become a long lasting sandbox sort of project for me - it's clearly too big for a single person, but I wanted to start on it anyways, and then see how far I can get.

Maybe I'll ask about design questions again, but my other question about where an evil overlord would hide items ran dry also - it seems no one is interested in sharing such thoughts, or it's deemed something uninteresting.

If someone knows about a forum, specifically about game design (not program design, and not graphics design), please let me know. Today I had bad luck with questions in two forums, but somewhere the people who are interested in game design talk must have a place, too. In the past the roguelike crowd was a good place to ask, since these games live from game design more than other genres. But maybe it's just me, and I ask the wrong questions, ask the wrong way, and can't deal with the answers.

The idea with the table is fine. I used that in a former project, and it worked. The tricky part is to work out proper multiplicators, and in some cases it should'nt be multiplicators to the base price but fixed sums added per level of the mod.

But I can't work on that before I have more of the game. E.g. I have no item materials at the moment. And I don't intend materials to play a big role. There is only one attack type, acid, which will be modified by material, and actually the items don't need a material for that, just an "ignore acid", or "resist acid" flag.

But I have some distrust in such table, too. They are too mechanic, and I think there should be some "hand crafted" exceptions, which will result from game testing ... but that I can only do if I have much more of the game. At the moment I only have a walkaround demo, some map generators, and a very incomplete list of "proof of concept" items, to check if inventory handing and item creation works.

Coppers are the lowest currency in this project. I must take care that cheap items will be a few copper coins, I want to avoid that all minor items cost 1 copper without any distinction.

Problem is, I have no simple items yet. But an arow, or a pebble, something like that should be among the lowest. From there I'll try to set prices for the weapons, which is the biggest group of items at the moment. Then implement shops and do some playtesting - I also have no idea yet what and how much my monster will drop. Item and treasure drops would have been one of the next design questions to post. But at least I can then collect some treasure and go shopping, and I'll see if the item relation are sensible, or if better weapons are unproportionally expensive.

Further question is how to compare armor to weapons, in some games armors are way more expensive but no so much more useful.

I had hope that people would start talking about such. Where to start, how to handle cheap items, junk items, how to set price relations between items or item groups (food, weapons, armor, ammo, light sources, misc. items), and finally when all that is set, think about magic item mods, or purely magic items which do not have any base functionality but the magic that they do, e.g. magic rings and amulets, also wands, scrolls and the like. There is also the question ho to set the ratio of selling used items to the prices of new items. E.g. if it's good if the player find one lucky valuable armor, which he can trade for a lot of other equipment. Maybe it's fine if such is possible, maybe it's not. Some games have limits how much gold a shopkeeper will pay out, but then there is other sillyness like all high lvel armor yielding the same 5000 gold or whatever the limit is from the shopkeeper, regardless of their real value.

This discussion didn't scratch any of such issues so far.

"The classical 5000gp bread. It could be interesting to make weapons so rare that they actually would cost more than a bread"

I wonder how this slipped in here. And from which game that is. Angband had fairly cheap food. And I wonder if this was meant as serious advice, since I would never have imagined to make a leaf of bread more expensive than a sword.

But I'm not sure if I want to add food to my game. It usually only adds hassle and no fun for the player. I mean there usually are no (see above) "interesting choices" in food, just to have food in order not to starve.

The project is too big already, I think food will not be on my design list till very late, or unless I get a real good idea of interestin things to do with food in a RGG.

Design / Re: Item pricing?
« on: March 11, 2014, 03:12:56 PM »
You could do this, present your item classes with all base values set so we can discuss them and tune them into the "plausible" criteria you seek, I guess...

Thanks, but the discussion so far ... made me feel misunderstood. Some answeres were from Captain Obvious, and I felt like people are kidding me. Also I feel another depressive phase coming, so I want to retreat from this discussion till I feel better again. It's nice that you offer help, but at the moment I think I must take a break. The past days were too stressful with project demo releases and bug fixes, and I overstretched it already.

Some day I'll have new energy and continue. Must go slower, and put less stress on me.

Sorry. ... it's not even a roguelike project that I'm working on, it's an action RPG. I just thought I'll ask here for design advice, because you should face similar problems in your projects, but seemingly item pricing is not a problem in roguelikes, or comes rather naturally.

Good luck with your projects.

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