Messages

1

Off-topic (Locked) / Re: Game Design question regarding movement in text RPG

« on: December 21, 2011, 08:02:29 PM »

Hi,

It's a single player MUD or sort of? Those and roguelikes are from the same "era" but are quite different. Anyway, if you limit yourself to four directions it feels strange not to have a minimap and wasd/arrow keys. That being said it's a bit sad since you can do so much more in a text based RPG, like "hidden" exits, mazes with twisted directions (loops), overlapping rooms and the like.

If you didn't already, I'd give MUDs a go for inspiration.

Do you have a link to your game?

2

Programming / Re: Can a Roguelike with only monsters be fun?

« on: December 21, 2011, 07:49:55 AM »

Nice, doesn't feel as forced now. On the other hand it's a bit confusing at first and too easy. I'd say drop the option to attack+attack, shift lets you move if you kill and that's it.

Managed to get far enough on first try so monsters started spawning on water. At that point you kill monsters facing you till a yeti reaches you and then you kill-move your way (preferably through fairies) to the next yeti.

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Temple of the Roguelike / Re: Welcome to Temple of the Roguelike Forums! (a.k.a. Introduce Yourself Thread)

« on: December 20, 2011, 06:37:11 PM »

Hey!

My name is Luka, I don't live on the second floor tho. I'm from France and I enjoy playing, making roguelikes. As many I have troubles finishing my projects though... Last fail to date is 2 years old, was a L5R themed one and when it started getting somewhere I've been stupid enough to mail AEG for permission.

I work in computer sciences, mostly helping researchers prototyping tools and using them for case studies (mostly model checking and model based testing). Kinda ironic seeing how there's room for improvement in my OO design, obviously I don't work alone.

My favourite roguelike is, by quite the margin, DCSS. It's also the only "major" one I won. Fun thing is I can't do it anymore for some reason, first time I made it to xp lvl 12  I went all the way and escaped with a good amount of runes, now I make it to this level quite often but can't win.

Anyway, love the community here, pretty sure I'll enjoy my stay!

- Luka

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Temple of the Roguelike / Re: Issues with forum / blog? Post here!

« on: December 20, 2011, 06:16:45 PM »

Hi,

Sent (I think) a private message but my outbox is still empty, is that the expected behavior or did I screw up somewhere (and should send it again)?

Thanks
- Luka

5

Programming / Re: Can a Roguelike with only monsters be fun?

« on: December 20, 2011, 06:27:59 AM »

Current enemies are the Mouse, Skeleton, Goblin, Yeti, and Fairy. there is no ending yet, in the full game you win when you reach the Alter on the 5th island.

There's a bug with the level generation tho, as the altar can be "reached" by the ground but have nothing under it. Then looks like a boat pretty much heh. Also not sure how the freeze from the yeti works if monsters are already frozen, couldn't make sure but felt like it sometimes refresh, sometimes not (when the effect already about to wear off).

If you don't want to have premade levels nor an oracle, you still can find some heuristics. Like, monsters shouldn't spawn too close from the player to allow him to position himself.

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Programming / Re: Can a Roguelike with only monsters be fun?

« on: December 20, 2011, 05:10:22 AM »

For the level generation algorithm, you could probably still generate them randomly but then have a method to tell how good the generated levels are.

A way to do it:

Have a graph of game positions, the starting one as a root node. A move means an edge leading to a new position/node. Note that you can have cycles so check before adding a new position. It's easier to do if deterministic but not impossible if not, way more complex though.

Winning node: position where the player escaped
Losing node: position where the player died
Winnable node: position from which there is at least a path leading to a winning node
"Choice matter" node: Winnable position from which there is at least a path leading to a losing node

Once you have the complete graph you can easily extract a few interesting figures, probably something like that:
- Beatable, have at least one winning node
- Difficulty, ratio of winning paths versus losing ones (cycle don't count)
- Interesting, number of "choice-matter" nodes

EDIT: Some fixes.

7

Programming / Re: Can a Roguelike with only monsters be fun?

« on: December 20, 2011, 04:38:04 AM »

Most roguelike are random, IMO it's only natural for a puzzle oriented one to be deterministic.

I didn't try DROD yet tho, thank you for the reminder.

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Programming / Re: Can a Roguelike with only monsters be fun?

« on: December 20, 2011, 04:29:40 AM »

Yep, deterministic is the word. Had some cases where non-determinism (randomness) killed/saved me. Like this one:

=	-	-	-	-
#	#	#	#	#	#
#	.	.	.	.	#
>	.	s	.	.	#
#	.	@	s	.	>
#	.	.	.	.	#
#	#	#	#	#	#

Player to move, only one heart left. If you paid attention till the start and know which skeleton moves first you have 50% odds to make it.

As long as it is random you might design a level, beat it, but if the monsters move another way it's impossible to win.

Also let's say AI now favors vertical movements over horizontal ones (which makes sense as they might tend to block the exit), level designer can use this fact as a very advanced puzzle element. In the above example if the top skeleton moves first, then the player can move left and win.

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Programming / Re: Can a Roguelike with only monsters be fun?

« on: December 20, 2011, 04:01:14 AM »

=	-	-	-	-
#	#	#	#	#	#
#	.	.	.	.	#
>	.	.	g	.	#
#	.	@	.	.	>
#	.	.	.	.	#
#	#	#	#	#	#

In this situation will the goblin move down or left? If it goes down, players goes up and repeat untill there is a way toward the exit.

In this case the randomness is a good thing tho as it can be exploited in a somewhat fun way, but with a tricky setup it might be hard to figure if it's always beatable as monsters move a bit randomly.

10

Programming / Re: Can a Roguelike with only monsters be fun?

« on: December 20, 2011, 03:25:36 AM »

8 ways movements will make the game a lot (too much) easier:
- This mouse will hit first? Move back in a diagonal once, problem solved
- Way easier to run for the exit
- Possible to kill goblins without being hit at all

If you go that way you need to make it harder somehow.

You say the goal is island #5 only? Maybe the answer is to forget about random generation and have 5-10 premade islands for each "level". Some islands can be really interesting even with the current setup, if premade you'd have control over that.

At the very least you'll be able to point out what makes a good setup and come back to random generation later with a smarter algorithm. After all it's more like a puzzle than a dungeon crawler. Because of this aspect, it might also be interesting to make the AI 100% deterministic.

11

Programming / Re: Can a Roguelike with only monsters be fun?

« on: December 20, 2011, 02:50:08 AM »

Yeah the ability to wait a turn would probably makes it even more forced.

Not sure I got Hi's frog idea right, but a somewhat common monster that let you kill it and move in the same turn would be nice. More movement == more options. Make it a slime or something '@' would have to walk over to kill, sword/stick don't hurt them.

I'd keep it the way it is for now and try to tune the death effects with this idea (and simplicity) in mind. Monster rarity will be a must at some point.

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Programming / Re: Can a Roguelike with only monsters be fun?

« on: December 20, 2011, 01:51:35 AM »

Add the ability to throw rocks or something? You start with none and each island would have a rock to pick. Would also add another choice: can you get the rock on this island or do you have to reach the exit?

Probably not good either as you'll always target yetis, so still forced. Maybe with limited range?

Also not sure if you should give the ability to "wait", but it is frustrating when your only available first move gets you at melee range with 2 goblins. Guess you could throw your rock, hence staying on your bridge with only one neighbour tile, which feels like scumming :-/

TBH I don't like this rock idea much. I'll try harder!

Also pretty sure that last island I was on was downright impossible (9 ennemies, mostly goblins and skeletons with a yeti in the far back), what's your take on this for later versions?

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Programming / Re: Can a Roguelike with only monsters be fun?

« on: December 20, 2011, 01:18:33 AM »

Nice work. Is your aim an android application or similar (since it would fit a touch interface)?

As I said earlier the limited movement options hurt though. The basic idea is very nice but you don't really get to choose what monster to kill first so it comes mostly down to how the monsters spawn.

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Programming / Re: Can a Roguelike with only monsters be fun?

« on: December 19, 2011, 08:16:20 PM »

Very nice, I really look forward to play this.

I tweaked my ideas a bit for better interactions, like fear doesn't affect undeads and bombers don't explode if frozen. Is player death the only possible outcome? If not, how to deal with hydras, something similar to that "bomber don't explode if frozen" idea?

There's one thing I'm a bit concerned about. With so few movement options the player might not have the luxury to decide on an order to kill things and it would take a lot of luck. Not sure how to achieve this either, and hard to find out without playtesting.

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Programming / Re: Can a Roguelike with only monsters be fun?

« on: December 19, 2011, 07:49:00 PM »

I like the idea. I suppose it's relatively short since there's no character progression.

Do Yetis take only one hit to kill as well? If so I'd rename the goblin to something scarier.

With the idea of combos in mind, here are some monsters/effects ideas:

• Chief - Fear, all monsters but undeads run away until they get out of LOS - rare
• Necromancer (undead) - All skeletons in sight die for good - rare
• Doppleganger - Take the shape (and death effect) of the last killed monster - uncommon/rare
• Genie - Player hits twice harder for 3-5 turns - uncommon
• Bomber - Unless frozen everything in a 3x3 square (including the player) take 1 hit - rarer than fairies