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Messages - gruff

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Classic Roguelikes / Re: CRAWL I HATE YOU TO DEATH
« on: November 28, 2010, 11:43:57 AM »
I have played hundreds and hundreds of games of Crawl and I have never once even seen a rune.

Last week I saw the Vault for the first time ever.

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Classic Roguelikes / Re: Omega
« on: October 29, 2010, 01:50:11 AM »
word, thanks

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Classic Roguelikes / Re: CRAWL I HATE YOU TO DEATH
« on: October 06, 2010, 05:26:51 AM »
All right get this now.

2nd best character ever. Still alive as I write this.

MDFi, favoring axes and Okawaru.

Okawaru grants me a gift: pitted war axe.

I wield:
flame, +Rage, rElec, rPois, rN+, MR

Beautiful, right?

but

it's


-4, -4


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Classic Roguelikes / Re: help choosing a game
« on: October 04, 2010, 04:05:05 AM »
1) do not confuse laws of physics/physiology/etc and logic.
2) unnatural behavoiur can be very logical. but still unnatural.
3) unbalanced games are usually not fun. balance flaws are exploited and that ruins (at least) some portion of fun.

1) Your examples were of violations of realworld laws. The Crawl skill system is perfectly logical: it assumes a set of axioms (kills give xp, certain actions practice certain skills), and adheres to those axioms with complete consistency.

2) Again, unnatural means "violates realworld laws".

3) Crawl is fun, and therefore balanced, for some but not for others. May it ever be thus.

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Classic Roguelikes / Re: help choosing a game
« on: October 01, 2010, 10:51:37 PM »
IMO: Properties of good skills/exp system:
1) Сonsistency. It shouldn't defy laws of common logic.
2) Fluent? It shouldn't force player to do unnatural things to progress.
3) Balanced.

In order to achieve (really?) 3, Crawl somewhat fails at 1 and 2.

I've thought about this and it's wrong.

1) "Common logic" in your usage means real-world logic. But all of Crawl, and all roguelikes, violate reality. Consider the healing system: you can stand still and go from 1% health to 100% health in minutes. According to common logic you'd be hospitalized for months. So if logic matters, roguelikes are not the game of choice for you.

The only logic a roguelike needs is internal logic - consistency with itself. Crawl has that.

2) "Unnatural" is just a disguised restatement of 1), and therefore not a separate criterion.

3) "Balance" is not a real goal. The real goal of a game is fun. And fun being a matter of personal taste means that not everyone will like the same game. Crawl obviously has very wide appeal. It's one of the most popular roguelikes. Therefore its game systems are successful, in that they create fun for players of the game.

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Classic Roguelikes / Re: CRAWL I HATE YOU TO DEATH
« on: September 26, 2010, 09:18:14 PM »
My condolences on your loss...a moment of silence.

Got to be careful in the mines. Never take trapdoors or emergency stairs - only go down regular stairs. Never teleport. Clear one area at a time.

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Classic Roguelikes / Re: help choosing a game
« on: September 25, 2010, 01:27:04 PM »
What, you don't go on killing sprees between violin practice sessions? I thought everyone did that.

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Classic Roguelikes / Re: help choosing a game
« on: September 25, 2010, 11:33:28 AM »
It's weird to think about being able to use a skill many times without ever getting any better at it, like when you put a skill on hold. 

This is actually realistic...if you think about it you only really get better at something when you put your full attention on it with a clear intention to practice and improve. If you just noodled around on a violin, you'd never really learn to play well, even if you noodled for eight hours a day. True skill comes with hard practice.

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Classic Roguelikes / Re: help choosing a game
« on: September 24, 2010, 04:48:29 PM »
Actually I was thinking about a real-life roguelike. Like Passage but a roguelike. Levels of dungeon would be years or stages of life, you'd start out in a playpen practicing basic hand-eye co-ordination, by level 20 you'd be on car driving skills and so forth...Death would be inevitable but there could be some sort of afterlife concept, perhaps one that differed depending on the religion you chose.

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Classic Roguelikes / Re: help choosing a game
« on: September 24, 2010, 04:33:33 PM »
SEX DUNGEON

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Classic Roguelikes / Re: help choosing a game
« on: September 24, 2010, 04:22:42 PM »
Nice analogy...I'd modify it by saying that before achieving that first strike, you had to kill a bunch of kobolds first to build up the XP pool, then spent the XP practicing approaches, dates, etc.. Actually bedding down for the first time represents going from Sex Skill 0 -> Sex Skill 1.

Now I am getting a crazy good idea for a roguelike....hmmm...

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Classic Roguelikes / Re: help choosing a game
« on: September 24, 2010, 09:55:29 AM »

I don't mind practicing at all.
I dislike the fact that in order to practice you need some exp in exp pool.
Even for practicing non-combat skills.
It's clear that in order to cast high level enchantment you have to
practice on low level for quite some time.
But what connection have haste with killing monsters?
Why I MUST kill monsters for, say, casting swiftness to become "practice enchantment"?
If I don't kill monsters than by casting swiftness I'll just waste my mana and won't
improve in enchantments a bit.

Let's go back to your troll character. He doesn't start out with spellcasting skill, so there's got to be a mechanism for him to learn spellcasting. Are you suggesting that troll berserkers be able to cast spells right off the bat? What would that look like?


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Once again. I don't mind practicing on weak dudes!
It's very reasonable (except for a fact that I don't really need that fighting skill at all).
But in order for this practice to be of any effect, I need to kill pack of strong
monsters with my powerful spells. Why?
What is connection between killing mobs with spells and practicing fighting skill with sword?
And as I stated, you need to find some bad ass monsters for a high level character
to gain some serious exp in the pool. And than find some weakling at the other end of dungeon...
It's just time consuming and not a single bit difficult.

You could always start practising the skill early on, not leaving it till you reach zot. Surely you can do it in the lair or the hive or some other corpsefest. And the connection, as I see it, is that general experience in combat, which stands for experience in dungeoneering in general, gives you the savvy to know WHAT you need to practice You can't walk into a dungeon as a newly graduated mage and expect to pick up a claymore.



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But almost always there is a fun way to overcome these barriers.
That's what games are about. Overcoming barriers in a FUN way.
If all you need is to press button 1500 times in order to progress further, that's not fun at all (IMO).

Try a different class/race combo. OR...suggest how Crawl could be improved. What would the ideal skill system look like?

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Classic Roguelikes / Re: help choosing a game
« on: September 24, 2010, 06:52:05 AM »
No. You can't. Haste is high level spell. And miscast effect can be not very pleasant.
You need to pump a lot of exp into enchantment before you will be able to cast haste more or less reliably.

That still makes sense to me. To get better at enchanting you practice enchanting.

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IMO grinding is effortless action that grant you some reward.
I can kill draconians with my caster. But I can't even try to engage in close combat with them.
I kill pack of draconians in zot, return to dungeon, find someone more or less harmless,
and pump exp into fighting. Repeat. And it takes a lot of time to pump fighting to a level
when I will be able to use it with more or less serious opponents,  to avoid long trips.
Worst thing in this - I don't really need fighting!
I don't want to fight with sword! I'm spellcaster!
But training fighting is the only way to increase hp.
And with hp below some threshold you can't enter several areas without risk of being instakilled.

I have to take your word for this as I've never been in Zot and I rarely play spellcasters. However it still sounds realistic to me. I wouldn't go up against Mike Tyson without practicing on some weaker dudes first.

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That's bad example. Actually pure fighters usually do not care about exp pool and such at all.
You just kill thing. With sword or crossbow - it doesn't matter.
Firing crossbow when there are some points in exp pool doesn't hinder too much,
fighter are tough enough to withstand a few extra punches, and you don't need to
find specific enemy for that.

The example illustrates my point that the XP pool system is not a major hindrance if you pay attention. I can get five levels in crossbows in a very short time, before being sent to the Abyss and slaughtered as usual. Also fighters have to make sure they practice traps, and evocations, and get a couple levels in spellcasting, all of which requires XP pool managment. Again, it's realistic: if I'm wandering around the dungeon I am going to have to put conscious effort into learning certain skills.

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Pure specialized casters are nearly the same.
But both pure fighters and pure casters are very dependent of equipment.
Even in order to simply win with 3 runes you need some serious luck.

This I agree with.

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Add 'almost' there. Even turned off skills can consume exp from pool time to time.

I almost did but didn't revise before posting. They do consume some but it's much slower.

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And that is what I don't like in crawl the most.

Imagine that you decided to learn how to make macrame.
You got book with lessons and some threads.
You successfully completed couple of lessons.
Your progress suddenly stops. You can't do new tricks, no matter how hard you try
and how much time you practice.
Now you need to take swatter and kill a few flies.
After killing them, you can make new tricks easily.
Where is logic here?

Putting logic aside (there is no much logic in fireball anyway), game forces me to do boring actions
to overcome some artificial barriers. They call this 'balance'. I call this 'bullshit'.
Both words start with 'b'.

Have you considered that all games are artificial barriers.

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Classic Roguelikes / Re: help choosing a game
« on: September 24, 2010, 05:31:38 AM »
No. It's not about lvl0->lvl1 only.
It's about all skills that are not used often.
If you want to cast haste, you need enchantment at relatively high level.
But if you don't need any other enchantment, you need to do cast something meaningless
every time there is exp in the pool.

No, you just have to cast an enchantment spell when there's XP in the pool - and that spell can be haste. No need for meaningless spells.


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Have you ever tried to train fighting with caster?
Kill powerful foe with spell. Return to dungeon, find some weaklings,
swing with sharp piece of metal at them (you don't even need to kill them, just attack).
Repeat. At what point this isn't some perverted form of grinding? :)

I guess I don't see that as unrealistic or weird. A skilled magician gets battle experience while using magic, then tries physical combat on weaker enemies, because he's not sure of his new skill yet. And because skills can level up pretty quickly when you've got a big XP pool, it doesn't take that long - not grinding.

Example: I usually play an MDFi and aim to get a crossbow. These rarely show up before DL 10. When I get one, I wait till I have a big XP pool then I make sure I shoot the bow as often as possible, plunging all those points into the crossbow skill.

Also, you can turn off skills on the (m) screen, which means they won't train when you don't want them to, saving points for the skills you do want.

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I don't really know why they didn't make training of combat spells by damaging
enemies and training of non-combat spells by usage only.

Non combat spells are trained by usage but the points that go into that training come from combat. The points have to come from somewhere - where if not combat, which is what Crawl is about?

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Classic Roguelikes / Re: help choosing a game
« on: September 23, 2010, 04:14:12 PM »
That happens in Crawl too but only when you've already got the spells skill and you've got XP in your skills bank. Xecutor is talking about the weirdness of going from level 0 to level 1 in a skill by using XP earned from killing.

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