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Announcements => Other Announcements => Topic started by: TidusBlade on September 25, 2007, 01:01:23 PM

Title: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: TidusBlade on September 25, 2007, 01:01:23 PM
I really like those extremely complicated games, and was just wanting to ask which is the most complicated and hardest or just most complicated rougelike you guys ever played or know  ;D
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: corremn on September 25, 2007, 01:48:35 PM
Although you should explain what you mean by complicated. Complicated gameplay/commands/skills, complicated as you have initially no idea how to play the game or my guess complicated rules.

You might want to give Incursion a go. Although if you are familiar with d20 and d&d then its not complicated at all, but has potential to be the most command intensive game ever. http://www.incursion-roguelike.org/

Crawl is also complicated in a sence that it is damn hard without getting a feel for it.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: TidusBlade on September 25, 2007, 01:54:39 PM
OH right, I meant complicated as in most options, commands and freedom :D
Thanx for Incursion, ill give it a try  ;) I tried Crawl, a was suprised at the amount of races/classes + :o
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Anvilfolk on September 25, 2007, 03:49:23 PM
In Crawl I end up just having three or so major race/class choices I make. The rest is up to gameplay and luck! Most of the major roguelikes are complex enough for you to have fun with... but if you want true ASCII-complexity: Dwarf Fortress! Not a roguelike per se, but it's a nice little bit of awesome goodness *g*

Also... ROGUE-like, ROGUE, not ROUGE! *fumes* ;D
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Adral on September 25, 2007, 04:47:43 PM
If by complicated you are meaning obscure commands, obscure interactions and general silliness, my vote is for Nethack.

For freedom, Dwarf Fortress.

For options, some Angband variants like ToME (although having lots of options is also bad, in my opinion)

I hope that helped ;)
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: TidusBlade on September 26, 2007, 10:05:32 AM
I tried Incursion yesterday, the options intimidated me  :P Ill probably try later when I got time though.
Dwarf Fortress sounds sweet  ;D Ill try to find it for Linux.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Adral on September 26, 2007, 01:00:50 PM
Dwarf Fortress sounds sweet  ;D Ill try to find it for Linux.

It works flawlessly under wine here. You can try that.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: tseckington on September 26, 2007, 01:12:05 PM
Incursion and Dwarf Fortress, though they really frighten me.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Slash on September 26, 2007, 06:25:48 PM
Geadhead can also get a bit complicated with all that mecha parts and stuff :)
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Anvilfolk on September 26, 2007, 06:50:00 PM
Wow, yeah, I totally forgot about that!

The gearheads are awesome, though sometimes it can be a little too daunting. It's easy to get lost, and not be sure exactly what's best.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Ex on September 26, 2007, 08:54:56 PM
I really like those extremely complicated games, and was just wanting to ask which is the most complicated and hardest or just most complicated rougelike you guys ever played or know  ;D

Nethack is by far the most complicated game I have ever played.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Gamer_2k4 on October 01, 2007, 12:41:36 AM
Nethack is by far the most complicated game I have ever played.

Try Incursion.  It is the definition of complexity.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Slash on October 03, 2007, 02:14:00 AM
What about OMEGA? I wish it was still on development (more than a frozen sourceforge project..)
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Adral on October 03, 2007, 01:08:20 PM
What about OMEGA? I wish it was still on development (more than a frozen sourceforge project..)

It's open source, so if you really like it you can pick up the code and continue it. Maybe someone will pick it up and continue it someday, look at Linley's Dungeon Crawl -> Stone Soup for a practical example of this ;)
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Lavastine on October 05, 2007, 07:37:20 AM
Dwarf Fortress sounds sweet  ;D Ill try to find it for Linux.

As complicated as Dwarf Fortress is now, in a couple weeks it gonna increase by a factor of 10 or something. Though who knows if that will work under wine or not.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Anvilfolk on October 05, 2007, 07:36:16 PM
All I've read about was the multi-level improvement. Which I honestly don't consider much of an improvement at all. I mean, it's hard enough to keep track of everything in one level, let alone several of them. Yeah, it adds some more depth (pun pun pun!), but it's totally unnecessary... you can do pretty much nearly everything right now, and on my 2 year old laptop, it gets really slow when you reach 100 dwarves or so. I can't even begin to imagine how much slower it's going to run with three-dimentional fluid algorithms, for instance.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Lavastine on October 05, 2007, 09:48:27 PM
Exactly, he wanted complicated. Keeping track of all this stuff is gonna be real complicated for sure.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Slash on October 06, 2007, 06:58:44 PM
I would consider that as an step on the wrong direction... DF would be way more popular if accessibility was polished instead of adding more complexity.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Adral on October 06, 2007, 07:04:20 PM
I would consider that as an step on the wrong direction... DF would be way more popular if accessibility was polished instead of adding more complexity.

I think the whole point of Dwarf Fortress is to be as complex as possible, which is a nice concept for those who like that sort of gaming.

Anyway, I think streamlining some actions would really help the game to be more accesible without substracting any complexity.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Slash on October 06, 2007, 07:29:21 PM
Yeah that's what I mean; it would be better if accesibility was their next goal, after that they can keep adding complexity. That doesnt mean reducing the in-game complexity :P
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Krice on October 06, 2007, 08:12:50 PM
it would be better if accesibility was their next goal, after that they can keep adding complexity.

I still don't know how to play DF. But it doesn't really matter, because I know a roguelike that will change everything.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Anvilfolk on October 06, 2007, 08:30:44 PM
Dwarf Fortress, adventure mode? :D

Seriously though, it has a steep learning curve, but it's worth it. Just learn how to setup a farm, start out with a couple of dwarves with some farming skills, and when you manage to have your (small) indoor fields up&running, you'll be able to last the winter!
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: tseckington on October 06, 2007, 08:46:52 PM
You know what I dream of for Dwarf Fortress? A menu kind of like this:

(t)rain dwarf
To be what? (hit key)
1. Farmer
2. Hunter
3. Builder
4. Soldier
5. Specialist

When dwarves level up they can branch out further. Hunters could become trackers or fisherdwarves. Soldiers specialize in weapons or training. Specialists are things like brewers and gemcutters.

Dwarves would be nameless units until they reach Master level of proficiency.

Everything. Easier.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Anvilfolk on October 06, 2007, 09:04:20 PM
Hmmm, don't think that'd be very good. I like the dwarf system so far, although it could use something like a menu where you can filter dwarves based on a certain skill, and their proficiency at it.

I don't think they have levels per se, but I'm not sure. I think the skills/attributes are just along the lines of [0..255] or something, with a description for an interval (e.g. 250-255: "Legendary").
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: tseckington on October 06, 2007, 09:24:02 PM
They could use levels. It would be better.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: dopefish7590 on October 07, 2007, 03:25:40 AM
wow im suprised noone even mentioned ADOM  :o

ive played nethack and caught on quite quickly there are a lot of commands granted but adom... that roguelike is so indepth it even has a key combination to clean your ears out (not kidding). it has an overworld map and many areas you can go to. you can do almost anything, you can change your allignment (which you cant in nethack) or even get close to your deity and get pre crowned crowned and post crowned. the game is very long and has lots of different terrain (the tower of eternal flames really took me for a loop  :P). i really enjoy roguelikes and i think that ADOM is by far the most indepth one ive played yet
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Gamer_2k4 on October 10, 2007, 04:46:05 PM
wow im suprised noone even mentioned ADOM  :o

ive played nethack and caught on quite quickly there are a lot of commands granted but adom... that roguelike is so indepth it even has a key combination to clean your ears out (not kidding). it has an overworld map and many areas you can go to. you can do almost anything, you can change your allignment (which you cant in nethack) or even get close to your deity and get pre crowned crowned and post crowned. the game is very long and has lots of different terrain (the tower of eternal flames really took me for a loop  :P). i really enjoy roguelikes and i think that ADOM is by far the most indepth one ive played yet

Well, the "clean ears" command is completely unnecessary, IMO.  There is one situation in the entire game where you need to use that command, and that's it.  More commands != better.

The gameplay in ADOM is mostly dungeon crawling with a few special areas and situations to add flavor.  I think the game has quite a bit of content, but it isn't as complex as some other games I've seen.  Combat, for example, uses a simple hit point system.  The player can use the same approach to destroy most monsters.  Quests are single tasks, such as "bring me this item" or "kill that monster."

ADOM does have many unique and interesting features, but I don't think that it's the most complicated roguelike ever.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: dopefish7590 on October 11, 2007, 02:13:02 AM
^^^
what do you consider to be the most complicated roguelike?
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Adral on October 11, 2007, 03:59:59 PM
^^^
what do you consider to be the most complicated roguelike?
He already answered this on this same thread.

Nethack is by far the most complicated game I have ever played.

Try Incursion.  It is the definition of complexity.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: dopefish7590 on October 11, 2007, 11:59:16 PM
ah... i didnt see that  :-[
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: Jusaz on November 08, 2007, 09:48:32 AM
you can change your allignment (which you cant in nethack)

Yes you can.. Nethack also has real inventories for monsters, which ADOM does not, to my knowledge. I mean a raider is shooting arrows at you but when killed he doesn't even have a bow etc. Nethack monsters zap wands, hurl/drink potions, read scrolls, intentionally jump on polymorph traps. In general, I feel that the Nethack code is much better, more flexible, and has better AI. ADOM in comparison just feels too clumsy.
Title: Re: Most complicated Rougelike ?
Post by: dopefish7590 on November 15, 2007, 05:17:22 AM
actually you cannot chnage your allignment on nethack, sure it tels you how you act... but it desnt change the alignment, and your alignment doesnt really play a major role in the game (as opposed to adom). as for the monster inventories... that is true, but hey i guess i really dont notice that :p. but this is not a nethack vs adom thread so i guess we should move on...