Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Development => Design => Topic started by: Krice on April 21, 2015, 12:19:05 PM
-
We have some RL libraries, but why don't we have a RPG system which is simple, open source (or rather free from license restrictions) and easy to extend with new stuff? For me the RPG system is really the big problem in roguelike (and role-playing game) development. Do we even have anything like that in tabletop form?
-
. . .
I strongly suspect this is going to be an exercise in "no true Scotsman," but why does the d20 system not satisfy your requirements? As for one actually implemented as software, can't say I've ever looked and preliminary searches didn't show anything obvious. I'd still be surprised if nothing exists at all.
-
why does the d20 system not satisfy your requirements?
It sucks.
-
I haven't really been deep into tabletop RPG-ing for about 20 years, but I'd also believe that's the place to look for a good, explicitly open-source system. I think designing and implementing a generic/basic rule system isn't so hard, though, unless you're going down the simulationist road or doing something quite special (in which case you need to roll your own, anyway). Squirm was loosely based on White Wolf's Ars Magica and World of Darkness series, rolling for successes against a set difficulty. The system I'm using for LoSt is a bit more abstract, and not quite ironed out yet, but loosely based on the roll of a six-sided die.
When I was playing RPGs with my friends back in the days, the rules were never that important, because what mattered was coming together to tell a fun/good story. A tactical RL should probably have a system that's more tailored for the specific needs of that RL, though, lest it feel hopelessly "next-gen" (let's face it, next-gen RLs are just sooo 90-ies).
As always,
Minotauros
-
I think designing and implementing a generic/basic rule system isn't so hard
I think it is. That's why we don't see those often, people rather copy existing systems. At least it feels like trying to design your own RPG system is such a big task. And I'm actually looking for something which may not even exist which is a system without experience levels (or experience). I guess you can create some kind of system quite easily, but balancing it is the difficult part.
-
Here's a (probably non-exhaustive) list of "open source" tabletop RPGs. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_gaming#Open_games) Some are games, some are just systems. Whether or not you'll like them is a different story, but they do exist.
-
. . .
I strongly suspect this is going to be an exercise in "no true Scotsman," but why does the d20 system not satisfy your requirements? As for one actually implemented as software, can't say I've ever looked and preliminary searches didn't show anything obvious. I'd still be surprised if nothing exists at all.
I'll add that the d20 can be tweaked to your heart's content, there is even NO rule saying you need to use d20 in d20, you could use 3d6 or d% or whatever instead :D
-
d20 is somewhat interesting because I think there was a part in the license that prevents using it in a interactive stuff like video games
-
Some are games, some are just systems. Whether or not you'll like them is a different story, but they do exist.
I've been of course trying to find something useful, but most RPG systems are a lot like D&D.
-
d20 is somewhat interesting because I think there was a part in the license that prevents using it in a interactive stuff like video games
Really? I thought the System Reference Document part is open game license, but some special item and monster names are not, because they are part of some specific game.
I starts to look again like I have to create everything myself, because the system I want doesn't exist. What a surprise.
-
d20 is somewhat interesting because I think there was a part in the license that prevents using it in a interactive stuff like video games
Really? I thought the System Reference Document part is open game license, but some special item and monster names are not, because they are part of some specific game.
I starts to look again like I have to create everything myself, because the system I want doesn't exist. What a surprise.
"Q: Does the definition of an "Interactive Game" preclude me from creating an online RPG, MUD, MUSH, MOO, etc.?
A: Yes. Please do not contact us requesting exceptions be made for your game or to inquire about getting a license to make a game. Wizards has an exclusive licensee for all electronic games based on our products and cannot enter into games licenses with any additional parties."
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/srdfaq/20040123b
-
I can list at least 3 d20 MUD/MUSH games, the rules for one are FR-flavored, one runs on Pathfinder-flavored rules and one is Star Wars flavored.
Obviously, none use the project identity or otherwise trademarked stuff. And there is a lot of homebrew content and variant rules involved.
Add to this list Angband, Incursion, your own Temple of Torment...
-
I can list at least 3 d20 MUD/MUSH games, the rules for one are FR-flavored, one runs on Pathfinder-flavored rules and one is Star Wars flavored.
Obviously, none use the project identity or otherwise trademarked stuff. And there is a lot of homebrew content and variant rules involved.
Add to this list Angband, Incursion, your own Temple of Torment...
But mine just uses simulated d20 for calculating my own rules. Only thing that looks like srd thing is the melee hitting that is d20 + To Hit Bonus (basically BAB in D&D stuff) against target AC. And AC and To Hit Bonus are on 0-100 scale that is divided by 5 to make it usable with d20 die.
-
d20 is somewhat interesting because I think there was a part in the license that prevents using it in a interactive stuff like video games
Really? I thought the System Reference Document part is open game license, but some special item and monster names are not, because they are part of some specific game.
I starts to look again like I have to create everything myself, because the system I want doesn't exist. What a surprise.
"Q: Does the definition of an "Interactive Game" preclude me from creating an online RPG, MUD, MUSH, MOO, etc.?
A: Yes. Please do not contact us requesting exceptions be made for your game or to inquire about getting a license to make a game. Wizards has an exclusive licensee for all electronic games based on our products and cannot enter into games licenses with any additional parties."
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/srdfaq/20040123b
Completely unenforceable hogwash. Another example that people can and will put anything into a license document.
-
I can list at least 3 d20 MUD/MUSH games, the rules for one are FR-flavored, one runs on Pathfinder-flavored rules and one is Star Wars flavored.
Obviously, none use the project identity or otherwise trademarked stuff. And there is a lot of homebrew content and variant rules involved.
Add to this list Angband, Incursion, your own Temple of Torment...
Angband is not d20. What are you talking about?
-
Angband is not d20. What are you talking about?
The core things Angband has (AC, to hit, to dam, STR-DEX-CON-INT-WIS-CHA stats [especially percentile dice over 18]) come from AD&D and d20 shares quite a lot of them [except percentile dice]. I am not saying Angband is licensed under d20, but showing how pervasive the base system is. And how you can use their ideas without using their license.
-
We have some RL libraries, but why don't we have a RPG system which is simple, open source (or rather free from license restrictions) and easy to extend with new stuff? For me the RPG system is really the big problem in roguelike (and role-playing game) development. Do we even have anything like that in tabletop form?
We don't have a RPG software library because:
A) it would have to be so generic that 90% of it would be useless in any given application.
B) there is a fundamental disconnect between tabletop RPG systems and CRPG systems, namely referee/game master/dungeon master resolution of edge cases and bounds.
C) tabletop RPG rulesets are a collection of chunks of incomplete descriptions of algorithms.
D) the human useable processes and data shapes do not map well to software solutions.
E) it would be a fuckton of work for no visible gain.
-
A) it would have to be so generic that 90% of it would be useless in any given application.
You might be right about that. I started to work on a RPG system for Teemu and it already seems to be a bit different. But I don't know, it may become "generic" in the context of typical RPG systems. What I'm planning for Kaduria is something that can't be expressed with regular RPG systems anyway. It's more than that.
-
Angband is not d20. What are you talking about?
The core things Angband has (AC, to hit, to dam, STR-DEX-CON-INT-WIS-CHA stats [especially percentile dice over 18]) come from AD&D and d20 shares quite a lot of them [except percentile dice]. I am not saying Angband is licensed under d20, but showing how pervasive the base system is. And how you can use their ideas without using their license.
d20 is a very specific ruleset. Angband AC, to-hit, etc. are clearly influenced by d20, but they are very different mechanically. For example, you can explain how hit-rolls and AC work in d20 in a short paragraph. Experts on angband are hard pressed to explain how AC works there and its impact is more complex than just hit-rolls. As far as I know, there's no uniform system of proficiency/stat checks in angband, as in AD&D. Movement works differently. And on and on.
-
ADOM is also clearly d20-influenced, but still very far mechanically. It even mentions Underdark and Lol'th (Lolth).
-
The old roguelikes are based on AD&D 2.0. D20 was 3.0. Before that, AD&D used thac0, which is similar to D20, but backwards (if that makes sense). Lots of people found it hard to understand or annoying, so D20 was invented.
-
For roguelikes the D&D and other table top systems are not perfect. They work but I would like a system that's RL specific. An RL system takes into account the control system as well as combat/game mechanics. My system links the stats directly with the controls. You don't have strength or melee, but rather a bump stat, you don't have agility or dexterity, but rather a shoot stat.
NOTE: I do not take into account 'to hit' rolls. I do not use them. Armor, resistances and being faster and fleeing are your defenses. There is no, "you miss" nonsense, that's not my style.
Stats
-Bump: melee attack stat with special effect if any...
-Armor: %blocked, magic attacks can ignore armor.
-Move: How many moves, depends on your timing system.
-Shoot: ranged attack stat with special effect.
???-Throw: If it's important to your game, you might have a throw stat, but for me certain things are throwable and do damage based on their weight.
Status
-Health: Start at 9999 and count down like Gauntlet. Eat food to restore health.
-Mana: Reduce this when a magic item is used, it slowly clicks up. You can sit and wait for mana to regenerate but then you are wasting health at one tick per turn...
-Special Effects: Poisoned, stunned, confused, blinded, regenerating etc....
Slots (each slotted item will alter the basic stats).
-Armor, weapon, ranged weapon, magic item, accessory, etc...depends on your game.
Special Effects
-Each item slotted can have a passive special effect on the wearer, each item used from inventory can have a special effect and a target (other, self). Like heal, invisible, fly, polymorph, etc...
The controls are thus:
-WASD = Move in four directions. Bump attack, open doors.
-Arrows = Shoot in four directions. You might us 'f' or 's' plus the arrows to shoot and use just arrows to move.
-Numbers = Equip/Use items in one screen inventory. Meaning inventory is only 9 slots.
-Space Bar = Use slotted magic item.
-T = throw or throw away something.
------------------------------------------
Example character panel
Uncle Jo Health: 8245
Bp Ar Mv Sh Energy: 45%
4 2 6 0
Hand: Flamberge (+4,0,0,0), Fire
Worn: Light Shirt (0,0,+2,0)
Item: Shield (0,+2,0,0)
Inventory:
1. Holy Potion
2. Azderzzcoo Scroll
3. Empty
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
Note your 'slots' can also be a Race and Class giving stats and special effects, like above the 'move' stat should only be 2 if you are looking at the gear but humans will all start with move 4.
Example:
-Race Slot: Human (0,0,+4,0)
-Class Slot: Fighter (0000), May Use Heavy Weapons
You can use that slot system for all kinds of things, like....
-Mutation: 4 Arms (+2, 0, +2, +2*) *applies only if ranged weapon is equipped
So that's one way to do it, some people might want to do the WoW/ToME4 system where you activate abilities and what not, you can modify this to that system as well but I enjoy a more gear/slot type of system.
Anyway I hope that helps people, I've not made a game with this yet but the system is sound. Anything that links actual controls to the stats is cool by me, it's just much simpler to see what's what that way.
Note the game Demon Hunt is a HUGE influence on this system.
Good luck.
-
We have some RL libraries, but why don't we have a RPG system which is simple, open source (or rather free from license restrictions) and easy to extend with new stuff? For me the RPG system is really the big problem in roguelike (and role-playing game) development. Do we even have anything like that in tabletop form?
Actually, I find your question pointless.
You need first to think about how your roguelike will work in general terms. How the character will increase its proficiency? How combat will look like? Is magic D&D-ish or a different system? Is the game skill-based, level-based or anything else? How does the player creates the character? etc...
I don't think a RP library is any possible because nobody knows how your roguelike will work. Also there are so many styles and variables that it would be impossible to create a RP system flexible enough.
BTW, developing a RP system shouldn't be hard once you exactly know how your finished roguelike will work.
-
@Someguy - You'll see that not knowing an RP system or whatever is a huge mental block for Krice. It's been his big issue for some years now. He'll either solve it or he won't.
Also, you cannot know exactly what your RL will look like in the end, but having a nice base system set up is probably a foreseeable thing.
I think many people get hung up on table top style RP systems when they should be creating a game system. All that's necessary for a solid RL is hit points and a damage calculator (probably based on whatever gear is used, can can be as simple as weapon grade - armor grade). There have even been nice RL's that are 1 hit only, but most long ones have at least hit points.
Check out the original Rogue or Brogue to see what I am talking about. Nothing too complex.
You can overthink this part to death and never get anywhere.