Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Development => Design => Topic started by: TSMI on January 14, 2014, 08:35:10 AM
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Are there any good roguelikes out there where combat doesn't happen all the time, but when it does it's dangerous? I am not a big fan of the whole "lots of easy/meaningless monsters" style of game, so I'm looking for something different.
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I don't know of any.
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I will think on this...a super hard roguelike is going to have death all around but your speed of play/clicks and the length of the game is going to play a part in how you perceive the game.
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It is unlikely. In most games, the combat is the content that keeps the player interested, with a thin wrapping of world around it. I'd say it is easier to add main content related to combat, than to do differently.
Have you looked at Ulimatim Regina Gary Busey or whatever it is called? Erm, googling something like those words gave me this link (http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/). That has rather a detailed world, so perhaps might have combat approached as being less of a crutch.
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Forays Into Norrendrin is something like that. It's not that difficult at least in first levels (might be later?) but each combat is interesting and you can't just walk around bashing monsters.
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I'm looking to mine ideas for good combat. I guess it doesn't have to be infrequent, but i find most roguelike melees boring. Even something that relies on stealth a lot in an interesting way.
Forays Into Norrendrin is something like that. It's not that difficult at least in first levels (might be later?) but each combat is interesting and you can't just walk around bashing monsters.
Forays great, already going to steal some ideas from that
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If combat is infrequent, how do you fill in the gaps? With riddles? Exploration? Good topic, I'm interested in it myself.
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Like miki, I'd be interested in what to replace frequent combat with, as RLs are typically hack'n'slash games. I'd love to play (or make ;)) something that tones down the psycho killer aspect whilst retaining RL replayability et al. I guess "exploration" is one possible key word to start thinking about features that might make a less combat-focused RL fun and interesting. "Random story" seems still to be more or less a holy grail, though – as in, it would be neat to cure humanity of all ailments, but I don't see it happening anytime soon ::)
URR has been mentioned, I think that is planned as not too combat heavy. The current version is very much alpha, featuring no battle whatsoever. It's got a neat system for random puzzles, though. I guess Dwart Fortress might be a place to look also, although I'm ashamed to say I've yet to play it.
As always,
Minotauros
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If combat is infrequent, how do you fill in the gaps? With riddles? Exploration?
How about with nothing.
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I guess Dwart Fortress might be a place to look also, although I'm ashamed to say I've yet to play it.
Oh yeah, Dwarf Fortress has infrequent and dangerous combat. I dunno if you'd count it as interesting or not. It isn't very deep but it's unique.
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Actually, Wayward might fit the bill here.
http://www.unlok.ca/wayward/
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If combat is infrequent, how do you fill in the gaps? With riddles? Exploration?
How about with nothing.
Then all you have is gap, which is tedious as hell. Try the first floor of Uushuvud. Might as well be asleep.
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Then all you have is gap, which is tedious as hell. Try the first floor of Uushuvud. Might as well be asleep
What is Uushuvud? Never heard of that one. I think gaps can be interesting too. You don't always need continuous action and roguelikes aren't even the best genre for action. If you really want you could put something else than monsters in the game world to fill those pesky gaps between battles. Only the imagination is the limit as I have said many times.
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Actually, Wayward might fit the bill here.
http://www.unlok.ca/wayward/
Thanks for that link - I played Wayward a long time ago and then completely forgot what it was called when I wanted to find it again! It looks like it's evolved quite bit since then, and I would agree it seems like the sort of thing the OP is after. Enemies are relatively rare and anything bigger than a Giant Rat presents a serious danger - even when you do encounter one it's usually wiser to run away than it is to fight it. The 'gaps' are filled with survival-based resource gathering, crafting, exploration and treasure-hunting.
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I guess Dwart Fortress might be a place to look also, although I'm ashamed to say I've yet to play it.
Oh yeah, Dwarf Fortress has infrequent and dangerous combat. I dunno if you'd count it as interesting or not. It isn't very deep but it's unique.
What it may lack in depth it makes up for in sheer hilarity.
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If you really want you could put something else than monsters in the game world to fill those pesky gaps between battles.
Indeed, which is exactly what people were saying up until you threw in "how about nothing". So by "nothing" you meant "something that's not combat"?
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Indeed, which is exactly what people were saying up until you threw in "how about nothing". So by "nothing" you meant "something that's not combat"?
Walking.
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Would a roguelike without any combat be possible? I mean a game that's still interesting and belongs to the genre.
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You could make a roguelike about navigating deadly traps and avoiding your enemies without fighting them. Or you could re-skin roguelike mechanics so it's about something other than combat despite playing the same.
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Would a roguelike without any combat be possible? I mean a game that's still interesting and belongs to the genre.
Sure! It would be great with something like a procedurally generated, ascii/minimalistic graphics, turn based, single character control game about (for example) being a merchant/explorer. You could travel on the sea, exploring new lands, trading spices and exotic materials, etc - it wouldn't need combat at all. I'd definitely say that was a roguelike anyway if it had the right features and aesthetics.
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Would a roguelike without any combat be possible? I mean a game that's still interesting and belongs to the genre.
Sure! It would be great with something like a procedurally generated, ascii/minimalistic graphics, turn based, single character control game about (for example) being a merchant/explorer. You could travel on the sea, exploring new lands, trading spices and exotic materials, etc - it wouldn't need combat at all. I'd definitely say that was a roguelike anyway if it had the right features and aesthetics.
I'm sure there must be some 7drls that are combat-less, although the only one I can think of off the top of my head is A Day @ The Zoo (http://www.happyponyland.net/zoo.php), which is probably not the best example since there isn't really anything else replacing the combat - you just wander around a procedurally-generated zoo. Perhaps The Aurora Wager (http://7drl.org/2013/03/17/the-aurora-wage-success/) comes close if [INSERT TEDIOUS 'BUT IS IT A ROGUELIKE' DISCUSSION HERE].
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Yeah but how do you recreate those intense moments when you have to get yourself out of trouble? Maybe a Macguyver roguelike? :D
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Yeah but how do you recreate those intense moments when you have to get yourself out of trouble? Maybe a Macguyver roguelike? :D
That would either be the best crafting system ever or the worst one. Inventory: Half pack of chewing gum. 1 cotton wool bud. 2 Paperclips. You can craft: ANYTHING.
To answer the first part; perhaps a stealth game?
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If combat is infrequent, how do you fill in the gaps? With riddles? Exploration? Good topic, I'm interested in it myself.
You don't have to fill the gaps.
When I think of this, the two main games which come to mind are Thief and Deus Ex. In these games which are of course not roguelike, combat is often an option. You can play the game and choose to make combat as infrequent as you can, pick locks, walk in the shadows, activate a speed augmentation/implant thing, enter a giant weirdly man-sized air conditioning system etc. And so it isn't so much that a gap is a gap, but rather that the gap is an exciting event where the attempt to avoid the potential combat is content in and of itself. This can be factored into game design, procedural generation and the rest.
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Would a roguelike without any combat be possible? I mean a game that's still interesting and belongs to the genre.
If you took all the combat out of rogue what would you have left?
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You don't have to fill the gaps.
When I think of this, the two main games which come to mind are Thief and Deus Ex. In these games which are of course not roguelike, combat is often an option. You can play the game and choose to make combat as infrequent as you can, pick locks, walk in the shadows, activate a speed augmentation/implant thing, enter a giant weirdly man-sized air conditioning system etc. And so it isn't so much that a gap is a gap, but rather that the gap is an exciting event where the attempt to avoid the potential combat is content in and of itself. This can be factored into game design, procedural generation and the rest.
that's kinda what I tried to do with Mujahid (http://sites.google.com/site/mujahidrl/) and to a lesser extent Rasatala (http://sites.google.com/site/rasatalarl/). In fact Mujahid was pretty much supposed to be a Thief/Assassin's Creed roguelike where planning how and when you engaged in combat was the most important part of the game. The problem with it is that there is only a limited number of ways you can set up interactions between the player and enemies before it gets a bit overdone. You'd probably need to go down the road of adding z-levels and complex interactions with the environment (like climbing, attacking from above or below, or hiding under things, etc) to make it work in a longer game.
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When I think of this, the two main games which come to mind are Thief and Deus Ex. In these games which are of course not roguelike, combat is often an option. You can play the game and choose to make combat as infrequent as you can, pick locks, walk in the ...
that's kinda what I tried to do with Mujahid (http://sites.google.com/site/mujahidrl/) and to a lesser extent Rasatala (http://sites.google.com/site/rasatalarl/). In fact Mujahid was pretty much supposed to be a Thief/Assassin's Creed roguelike where planning how and when you engaged in combat was the most important part of the game. The problem with it is that there is only a limited number of ways you can set up interactions between the player and enemies before it gets a bit overdone. You'd probably need to go down the road of adding z-levels and complex interactions with the environment (like climbing, attacking from above or below, or hiding under things, etc) to make it work in a longer game.
Agreed. Thief and so forth have a huge advantage in the flexibility their game view gives. I think it's entirely possible without z-levels or too complex interactions with the environment, but really until someone does it that's mere hand-waving.
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PG plot, might be a way to replace combat with exploration and gradually discovery of a PG story.
But it's hard.
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If combat is infrequent, how do you fill in the gaps? With riddles? Exploration? Good topic, I'm interested in it myself.
I like what AliensRL did, or almost did. Fighting was both dangerous and a waste of your resources. There were mostly harmless drones that kind of broke it up a bit, and I think would have been better without. But if combat is reasonably infrequent, dangerous, and consumes your resources, the spaces between can be filled with tension.
Just so long as there is enough danger that it could be lurking around every corner.
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This is actually exactly what I'm planning for Ultima Ratio Regum. Combat will be very rare, and very risky - even a 2v1 battle will potentially be a significant danger.
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I've been thinking about implementing fine-grained combat, i.e. something more than bumping into enemies. Some examples off the top of my head, so you get the idea:
- 2-step attack: first turn - take a swing, the second turn - hit if the enemy is still there; would be much stronger than normal attack; if he dodges then you're in trouble
- parry: if you have a shield and the enemy attacks from that direction in the next turn, then the attack is harmless
- dodge: you step back or sideways; if the enemy attacks in the next turn, then he is thrown off balance, otherwise you are
Of course you'd get limited information on what the enemy is up to next turn, depending a reflex skill or something.
Pros: more interesting combat, and more realistic - some real life scenarios could come naturally instead of being explicitly added
Cons: slows down the player, hard to learn, and possibly hard to implement good AI, could turn into a rock-paper-scissors game if not implemented well
The question is, are there any roguelikes that have this kind of thing, so I can see if it's worth trying, and possibly shamelessly copy from ;)
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A 7DRL from last year, Fisticuffmanship (http://tametick.com/fisticuffs/), features combat where your positioning makes a big difference, increasing or decreasing your attack and defense. Not quite the same, but still an interesting and more tactical twist on combat.
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Everyone seems to have a different game I've never heard of in mind, but I would suggest that Angband is not too far from what is being described here: Yes, it's highly combat oriented, but the key to playing well is not fighting dangerous monsters that may kill you or consume your resources unnecessarily -- this makes "real" fights kind of uncommon. The fights that aren't optional (Morgoth, Sauron, some of the uniques you really don't want to fight at the same time as Morgoth or Sauron) are actually reasonably dangerous with normal play and mildly interesting (although I'm definitely sympathetic to the position that Angband is kind of boring in general).
Maybe if you took Angband and got rid of all the small fry, you'd have what you're describing. I kind of remember Sil being almost like that, but then I was too terrible at Sil to really judge -- every fight seemed pretty hard after a few dungeon levels.
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Would a roguelike without any combat be possible? I mean a game that's still interesting and belongs to the genre.
I'll throw out another game you've probably never heard of, my 7drl from last year: A False Saint, An Honest Rogue (http://humbit.com/rogue/).
It has no combat. I think it's pretty roguelike, though some people will disqualify it precisely because it lacks combat. Essentially, your body temperature replaces your health, the cold/wind replaces monsters, and layerable clothing replaces armor. The combat gap is filled with exploration and finding items. There's a little bit of hunting too which, if expanded, could fill up a lot of time.
Yeah but how do you recreate those intense moments when you have to get yourself out of trouble?
Ah, yes. It definitely has those moments. You get some bad luck and crack through some ice. All your clothes get soaking wet and you take a huge temperature hit. Your low body temperature causes hallucinations, which makes falling through ice again more likely and you start having trouble identifying items; now you're on a death spiral. The best part of the game is getting out of that situation successfully.
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I'm just responding directly to the opening post, so I apologize if someone already mentioned any of what I'm about to write.
Having an infrequent and deadly combat system is actually my preferable skirmishing setting, however it tends to fail miserably if the interesting factor is low, if it is somewhat unfair due to its unexplained deadliness or if it is too infrequent. An infrequent and deadly combat system should not be too fast paced because it may not give the player a chance to learn how its combat mechanics should be conducted as well as having its deadliness giving no proper room for the player to exercise a sort of escape plan when facing a foe too powerful to overcome. Being not able to escape from a potent foe because you had the bad luck of crossing your path with it will feel very frustrating, at least I would feel this way.
When I refer to a combat as being deadly I'm actually referring to its unforgiving nature in terms of the player not being ready for it, like lacking the right gear, set of skills and by trying pushing victory too hard towards a stronger opponent. The combat's deadliness should be more about wrong choices than bad luck. Another thing to consider is not to make combat too infrequent as the game might become very boring, especially when we are talking about games with large worlds containing tons of areas to explore. Combats should be way less frequent than the ones found on common hack&slash games but don't make them too rare.
Though it is nice to have a combat system where the playable character's head can be chopped off with a single strike, such unfortunate act should still be justified. "How did this happened?" - the player might ask. Well, maybe the foe was simply too powerful; maybe the player didn't have any neck protection; maybe the character was simply too tired to effectively dodge the attack or maybe the character's reflexes were simply poor due to an active disease. Whatever the cause, there should always be a valid explanation preventing the player from cursing unfair misfortunes which he has no control about whatsoever.
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Maybe if you took Angband and got rid of all the small fry, you'd have what you're describing. I kind of remember Sil being almost like that, but then I was too terrible at Sil to really judge -- every fight seemed pretty hard after a few dungeon levels.
Sil isn't Angband-like at all despite being built on its code. In Angband you have a huge number of options for detection, offense, escape, and everything else, and to make up for that, all of the really dangerous enemies can kill you in just a few turns.
In Sil your choices are way more limited, which makes the options you do have more meaningful. You can't just cast teleport away from a dangerous situation. You need to have an escape plan ready before things turn bad.
One of the cool things about Sil is that it works as both a kill-everything-hack-&-slash and as a game of infrequent, dangerous and interesting combat.
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Sil isn't Angband-like at all despite being built on its code. In Angband you have a huge number of options for detection, offense, escape, and everything else, and to make up for that, all of the really dangerous enemies can kill you in just a few turns.
In Sil your choices are way more limited, which makes the options you do have more meaningful. You can't just cast teleport away from a dangerous situation. You need to have an escape plan ready before things turn bad.
One of the cool things about Sil is that it works as both a kill-everything-hack-&-slash and as a game of infrequent, dangerous and interesting combat.
Right, of course things like scrolls of teleport level (or more hilariously spellbooks with teleport level spells, word of *destruction*, genocide, etc.) short circuit tons of tactical depth that comes out when you remove them as in Sil. The capacity to escape in Angband is so absolute once you've gotten past the mid 20s in character level, it's pretty nuts. (Some variants take half-measures to mitigate this, e.g. no-tele vaults, no *destruction* or genocide levels, etc. as soon as you have the ability to unconditionally remove monsters or instantly teleport out of line of sight, it's really all the same.)
But yeah, I agree about the versatility of Sil and the that difference is primarily down to lack of canned/automatic escapes and to a lesser extent lack of easy detection (as well as mechanics that allow the player to gain experience without killing anything).
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I thought this was about games like PrincessRL and Fragile Wraith, which have multiple attack options instead of simple bumping.
The title also sounds like a description of RPG games in general. Although classic RPG battles are really no different than fights in roguelikes, people would probably say RPG battles are more interesting, and perhaps that's what you are really after.
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You could have a look into Dwarf Fortress in Fortress Mode (already mentioned) because it has exactly what you are asking for. Maybe it's not the type of game you are looking for but it can still give you some insight into how it fills the gaps and makes those ultra dangerous bouts of combat interesting.
I would also recommend UnReal World. Combat is one of the most interesting parts of the game even though it can be very rare.