Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Game Discussion => Player's Plaza => Topic started by: ianpwilliams on October 13, 2013, 01:37:50 PM
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I'm going on a trip soon, and I'm considering picking up a cheap netbook for some low-level gaming, including roguelikes. So would any old cheap netbook run roguelikes? Or would I need to check the specs? I'm thinking I'd particularly like to play Rogue Survivor, Dwarf Fortress, maybe ADOM and others too.
And can I assume that a netbook is the cheapest way to go for mobile roguelike?
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Most roguelikes are turn-based and won't use much processing power, so you can play them on any cheap or old computer. Dwarf Fortress and Caves of Qud are a bit more demanding and might not run smoothly on a netbook.
The main problem with playing on a laptop or netbook is the lack of a numpad. There are a few ways around this problem:
- Learn to use hjklyubn (vi keys), and play a game that supports this control scheme
- Hold down the fn key and hope you don't get RSI
- Get an external numpad
- Play games with orthogonal movement only
- Get a netbook with a numpad
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- play a roguelike where keys can be redefined (like ADOM)
- use 1379 for diagonal movement (not that bad, in my experience... but not good either)
- use NotEye to have Shift/Ctrl turn left/right arrows into diagonals (the Infra Arcana system)
(BTW this thread is posted in a wrong forum)
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The main problem with playing on a laptop or netbook is the lack of a numpad. There are a few ways around this problem:
- Learn to use hjklyubn (vi keys), and play a game that supports this control scheme
Actually, one can meet this solution halfway through: arrow keys + yubn is my favourite way to move around in roguelikes on my netbook. hjkl is just too weird for 4 orthogonals.
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I've seen games which expect people to use arrow keys + home/end/delete/insert (or something like that). I couldn't use those (even when I had a keyboard where that made sense) because for the sake of fluency I prefer to have all of the movement keys close to each other. Less hand movements required.
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Additional thing to consider is netbook's small screen and its weird width x height ratio. Some roguelikes will be impossible to play, because they won't fit on the screen (though this is rarely true for non-minor games) and some will be really uncomfortable to play.
I've seen games which expect people to use arrow keys + home/end/delete/insert (or something like that). I couldn't use those (even when I had a keyboard where that made sense) because for the sake of fluency I prefer to have all of the movement keys close to each other. Less hand movements required.
Fair enough. Arrow keys + home/end/delete/insert/pgdown/pgup have the bonus flaw that amongst 6 keyboards I have 5 have different layouts of these keys, making consistent use of them in movement problematic.
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I play on my laptop. Many games have mouse support. Some you'll need to muddle through with a variety of work arounds for the lack of a numpad.
Or just get a usb numpad FTW.
Performance will pretty much be a nonissue. I've not run into any, even a game that slows down it's not that important because real time reaction isn't an issue.
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Additional thing to consider is netbook's small screen and its weird width x height ratio. Some roguelikes will be impossible to play, because they won't fit on the screen (though this is rarely true for non-minor games) and some will be really uncomfortable to play.
I'm hopeful that the small screen size wouldn't be too much of an issue (my eyesight is fine close-up, it's long distances I struggle with), but I did wonder about the resolution.
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I play on my laptop. Many games have mouse support. Some you'll need to muddle through with a variety of work arounds for the lack of a numpad.
Or just get a usb numpad FTW.
Performance will pretty much be a nonissue. I've not run into any, even a game that slows down it's not that important because real time reaction isn't an issue.
A laptop is the other option. I have been considering buying a powerful laptop for other games anyway (including Football Manager), so obviously I could also play roguelikes on that. But the laptops are quite big and heavy, so I was just looking to see if there was a nice little portable machine that I could go for instead.
I could definitely get around the numpad issue (either via USB or via one of the tricks mentioned), so the only question mark remaining would be the resolution.
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For some reason I`m obsessed with the possibility of playing RLs on portable machines. Somehow this way really appeals to me with this particular gaming genre, despite being a desktop-PC gamer at heart.
Been on a lookout for a netbook for some time now - don`t really need one, it`d be just for RLs, so if I spot some Asus EEE for under 50 quid I`ll get it. I realize that DF and - very unfortunately Qud - might be unplayable, but well, there`s other ones.
What got me into this mobile RLing were my handheld consoles. On NDS you get native Powder which is quite good, okayish-to-good port of Nethack, and excellent port of Linley`s Dungeon Crawl. IMO worth exploring for these alone, especially that NDS+flashcart can be got dirt cheap these days. And, you get to play jRLs like Shiren et al, if you don`t mind the Eastern angle.
PSP has TOME and Angband - ports are solid but controls flawed, making longer plays a chore.
I was even thinking about smartphones for that, though again, I don`t need one and also avoid both Apple & Goggle in general. But I guess I could get some older ANdroid root it, and only play RLs on it. But the touch screen is a deal breaker here, can`t imagine serious playing with that. Has anybody used any of these strange joypad-addons with these? Or maybe USB keyboard? Though this sounds like too much hoops, probably will just stick with netbook angle.
Another angle is the new GWC Zero handheld - Kickstarted recently it`s sort of open source emu machine that runs Linux too. Embarrassingly, I know nothing of Linux and its mysteries - does it mean that it would run RLs that Linux PC does?
There`s also the Esoteric Option: Open Pandora. Kinda old dream come true - dedicated gaming handheld with a keyboard that runs PC games - but I don`t have spare 500 bucks laying around to spend on such a folly.
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I regret buying my mini laptop, or net book. Too small, too slow, hard to type with. I'm going at least 15" for my next purchase. Minimum.
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For some reason I`m obsessed with the possibility of playing RLs on portable machines. Somehow this way really appeals to me with this particular gaming genre, despite being a desktop-PC gamer at heart.
Been on a lookout for a netbook for some time now - don`t really need one, it`d be just for RLs, so if I spot some Asus EEE for under 50 quid I`ll get it. I realize that DF and - very unfortunately Qud - might be unplayable, but well, there`s other ones.
What got me into this mobile RLing were my handheld consoles. On NDS you get native Powder which is quite good, okayish-to-good port of Nethack, and excellent port of Linley`s Dungeon Crawl. IMO worth exploring for these alone, especially that NDS+flashcart can be got dirt cheap these days. And, you get to play jRLs like Shiren et al, if you don`t mind the Eastern angle.
PSP has TOME and Angband - ports are solid but controls flawed, making longer plays a chore.
I was even thinking about smartphones for that, though again, I don`t need one and also avoid both Apple & Goggle in general. But I guess I could get some older ANdroid root it, and only play RLs on it. But the touch screen is a deal breaker here, can`t imagine serious playing with that. Has anybody used any of these strange joypad-addons with these? Or maybe USB keyboard? Though this sounds like too much hoops, probably will just stick with netbook angle.
Another angle is the new GWC Zero handheld - Kickstarted recently it`s sort of open source emu machine that runs Linux too. Embarrassingly, I know nothing of Linux and its mysteries - does it mean that it would run RLs that Linux PC does?
There`s also the Esoteric Option: Open Pandora. Kinda old dream come true - dedicated gaming handheld with a keyboard that runs PC games - but I don`t have spare 500 bucks laying around to spend on such a folly.
Yeah I'm obsessed the the possibility of playing mobile RL too. I have an iPod Touch 4G, and to be honest there are some great roguelikes on that. I have NetHack, Powder, 100 Rogues, The Dungeon, and RogueTouch! But I don't play them as much as I'd like, as I often end up playing Football Manager Handheld instead. But they do play well. And actually, touchscreen works really well (I think). You can just touch in the direction you want to go, so that works for movement and attacking. Powder even has a touchscreen d-pad and A and B buttons (and lots of other buttons) all of which you can customize.
I'd just like to be able to pick up a cheap portable machine that runs windows, so I can play the zombie roguelike Rogue Survivor, because I'm loving it!
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I regret buying my mini laptop, or net book. Too small, too slow, hard to type with. I'm going at least 15" for my next purchase. Minimum.
Are those regrets related to playing roguelikes on it, or just generally?
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There are various refurbished options here, starting at £99 (the £49 one is for spares):
http://www.thelaptopcentre.co.uk/cheap-refurbished-laptops.html
It's odd that there are so many all at £99, but that they vary in processor speed, memory, and HD space. Surely everyone would go for the more powerful ones?
I've also noticed that with many of them they can't guarantee that the battery will hold a charge, so it looks like overall it would cost more like £150 including delivery and buying a new battery elsewhere.
A few of them are widescreen too, such as the Dell D620, which is a little bit more expensive at £129, but has a resolution of 1440 x 900. Would that avoid the resolution and display problems maybe? Does anyone know what kind of resolution is good for roguelikes on laptops and netbooks?
Does everyone think one of these would do the trick in terms of performace and resolution for roguelikes? I know that Rogue Survivor is quite picky about what version of Directx and Microsoft .NET Framework you have, so whichever one it was would need to be able to have these up to date. But they all seem to be XP, and my current 8-year-old PC is Windows XP too, so hopefully that wouldn't be a problem.
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I have a netbook as my main pc, which I use for work and play (=RLs). The machine in question is an Asus EeePC (the so called Karim edition, with a wobbly shell), which I got three years ago. I'm mostly happy about it, except the battery suddenly died after about one and a half years (went from 4hrs battery life to 0 in the blink of an eye). The machine is pretty weak in terms of CPU and such, but for most RLs, that hasn't been a huge issue. I can play Caves of Qud, for instance (slightly laggy, but that may also have to do with the fact I'm force-feeding Qud to Linux through Wine). ADOM, Crawl, Powder, etc. all work like a charm. If available, I tend to use 1379 or uibn for diagonals, or the Fn-key to access NumPad keys. One gets used to it.
The one single issue that keeps popping up, though, is screen resolution. The resolution is at 1024x600, which is frankly too small in today's world. Some web pages are problematic to read, and many games just assume you've got a bigger screen. Polished gems like Infra Arcana luckily provide an ASCII option, but other games are just unplayable because I'd need another couple hundred pixels on the y axis.
From a developer's point of view, at least I can be certain the stuff I crank out is playable on low-end hardware, which I guess is the single highlight of having a crappy pc :P
I'm hoping to get a new computer soon (just need to rake in some cash), and I'll probably go with a regular laptop or one of these ultrabook-thingies – definitely something with decent resolution, and maybe I'll even treat myself to something with a graphics card and stuff.
As always,
Minotauros
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Interesting. All the netbooks on that link seem to be 1024x768 or higher, so I'm guessing they would be ok on that front. They also have a screen size of 12.1" or more - I'm guessing that would be enough. So if processor, RAM, and HD space don't matter too much, I suppose that just leaves software.
I know that Rogue Survivor needs the most recent versions of DirectX and .Net Framework, and Dwarf Fortress needs Windows XP SP 3 (all the netbooks on that link have "XP SP1" or "XP" or "XP Home".
Do you know if these netbooks are able to cope with the latest versions of DirectX and .NET Framework, and Windows XP Service Pack 3?
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I doubt it needs "latest" DX version, which is 11.1 or some such and doesn`t even work on XP. I just played it on my DX 9c machine and it works fine.
Netbook already running XP shouldn`t have any problems with SP3 or latest .NET
But, for me at least, the real allure of a "netbook" would be its tiny, near-pocket size, even if the result would be limiting me to particular RLs. These two in that link are called "small laptops" - with a 12.1 screen, so maybe it`s worth researching the dimensions/weight and asking yourself again how you`re gonna use it - if sitting at a desk, maybe its worth buying one with "proper' 14" screen - dunno, the lines between laptop/netbook get blurry at this point.
Also do research battery availability for the model you decide on - some are very expensive, and if it`s a refurb job the battery will go sooner or later. Probably sooner (which is why their warranty does not include batteries).
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Yeah my home PC ran it with DirectX 9c too, so that should be fine. And good to know that they should run SP3 and .NET.
I too want something nice and small portable, because it will be for trips, and possibly playing on my lap. I'm now leaning towards the Dell D410, because it has Win XP Pro, 2Gb RAM (upgraded from 512Mb it seems), and a 1.86GHz processor. And it's only 276mm x 239mm x 33m, and only 2.2kg. And 12.1" screen seems about right to me (1024x768 too).
And Googling batteries, they seem to start at £20. I'm sure they will be 3rd party ones, but hopefully they would be ok.
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I have a 13" notebook which is pretty fine. It's not too heavy, the screen's not too small for me - my eyesight isn't the best (1366x768), you can type and surf the net and pretty much do everything, and it runs RLs and Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights 2.
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I have a 13" notebook which is pretty fine. It's not too heavy, the screen's not too small for me - my eyesight isn't the best (1366x768), you can type and surf the net and pretty much do everything, and it runs RLs and Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights 2.
Can i ask what the make and model is?
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Do you think I should go for better processor (Intel Core Duo 1.2Ghz with 1Gb RAM) or more RAM (Intel Pentium M 1.86Ghz with 2Gb RAM)?
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I have a 13" notebook which is pretty fine. It's not too heavy, the screen's not too small for me - my eyesight isn't the best (1366x768), you can type and surf the net and pretty much do everything, and it runs RLs and Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights 2.
Can i ask what the make and model is?
Sure, happy to help. (crap, I was off by 1", it's 14"). It's a Dell Vostro 3450.
It might be easier to get 3350, which is 13", or 3550 - 15", but I needed a notebook which I could carry to my lessons. The weight is 3,5 kg, so just like a textbook for school. 3550 clocks in at around 5 kg, so it was a bit too heavy for me - I'm disabled and carrying 5 kg is difficult - and 12-13" was a little too small for my eyes to be comfortable.
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That's quite a bit more powerful than the ones I'm looking at actually, so I'm not surprised it runs RL's so well! I have the Baldur's Gate Collection and Icewind Dale collection, but I've never gotten around to playing them, I must do that one day.
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I've been looking at the laptops in my link, in particular the graphics cards, what with processor, memory etc all being similar, and all but one have Intel GMA 900 integrated graphics, which is what you would expect for machines that are meant for business use. Incidentally the one that does have dedicated graphics is the D810, which has a dedicated ATI RADEON X600 128MB chip, and by all accounts can run some great games on really good settings. But the sacrifice is made by the fact that it's much bigger and heavier. Anyway, the poor graphics on the other ones is demonstrated by the performance graphs at this link:
http://www.trustedreviews.com/Dell-Latitude-D430_Laptop_review_performance-graphs_Page-5
But what's confusing is this link where the D430 is reviewed, where it says the following:
"With a score of 348, it is obvious that the D430 will not be playing the latest games. Sure, it will play Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, Final Fantasy VII & VIII, the original Neverwinter Nights, and maybe even the original Halo game. But anything that is not at least a few years old is going to choke this card. Halo is pushing it, as at the lowest settings it is barely playable, so I think I'll stick to Solitaire thank you very much."
Now surely if the D430 can run GTA Vice City and the like, it must be able to handle Rogue Survivor, Dwarf Fortress and the rest of the Roguelikes mustn't it?
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But what's confusing is this link where the D430 is reviewed, where it says the following:
"With a score of 348, it is obvious that the D430 will not be playing the latest games. Sure, it will play Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, Final Fantasy VII & VIII, the original Neverwinter Nights, and maybe even the original Halo game. But anything that is not at least a few years old is going to choke this card. Halo is pushing it, as at the lowest settings it is barely playable, so I think I'll stick to Solitaire thank you very much."
Now surely if the D430 can run GTA Vice City and the like, it must be able to handle Rogue Survivor, Dwarf Fortress and the rest of the Roguelikes mustn't it?
My guess is that the reviewer hasn't heard of roguelikes and his gaming knowledge ends on NWN 1.
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What I was getting at it that the reviewer believes that the D430 will run GTA Vice City, which although it is old game now, it's still a fully-fledged 3D graphical game with large maps etc. So if it can run the likes of that, then surely it should be able to comfortably run all Roguelikes, including Dwarf Fortress (which sounds like it is the most demanding)? I mean, can any Roguelike really be more demanding on the processor/memory/graphics card than GTA VC?
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DF is a different beast than Vice City, it`s mostly processor/RAM hungry, not relying on GPU so much. It also depends on the size of the gameworld you create and how much stuff is going on there and this is hard to predict since, well, it is Dwarf Fortress. So no doubt it will run on this laptop, it`s just you might need to experiment with game parameters if you experience slowdown. Which you probably won`t anyway.
My advice is to take a plunge and just decide on one of these machines without agonising too much over minor differences in specs. Otherwise it will drive you mad and might affect future enjoyment of the purchase ("OMG what if I went for that other one..."). Speaking from personal experience ::)
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Yeah I think you're right, I could agonise over this forever. And it's only so I have a nice little portable machine for Roguelikes, so it's not a big deal really. And I'm sure DF will run with smaller worlds at least.
Thanks for the advice everyone! :D
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This depends on what kind of travel you're doing. If you'll have internets, then you can play on remote systems, e.g. public nethack and dcss servers, via telnet, ssh, or sometimes a web interface. Not only is this a nice way to have a consistent experience across multiple devices, but playing on public servers is the right thing to do.
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I've come back to this, and I'm now looking at getting the Lenovo x200 or x200s (with 4GB RAM), both of which have 1280 x 800 screen resolution. Presumably that would be enough for displaying most Roguelikes?
Which would just leave the num pad issue. But then I'm sure I could redefine the keys, and if not then I could use a function key to change the arrow keys to diagonal movement, which I actually think could work quite well once I was used to it.
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Never mind, x200s with 4GB RAM ordered :D