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Game Discussion => Early Dev => Topic started by: UltimaRatioRegum on August 03, 2013, 02:23:05 PM

Title: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: UltimaRatioRegum on August 03, 2013, 02:23:05 PM
I've just (after seven months!) released Ultima Ratio Regum v0.3, which can be read about and downloaded from here: http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/

You can now explore the first type of dungeon - ziggurats - and deal with some pretty fiendish procedurally generated puzzles. I'd love any and all feedback on the art, controls, mechanics, puzzle difficulty; anything and everything. Thanks all :)

(http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/files/2013/08/Skullo.png)
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: halvorg on August 03, 2013, 03:07:24 PM
I'm a bit short on time right now, so some first impressions.
(I'll edit in more later)

Attempting to start a new game when no worlds exist gives no feedback, nothing happens.
The window border texture in the menus should perhaps be reconsidered, it's a bit big and stands out.
The font for the help text is hard to read. The g's and y's etc are very peculiar.
What I've seen of the visuals so far have been very impressive. I usually get lost in ASCII-ish graphics, but these are very well done.
If possible display the offloading dialogue instantly when walking across "zone borders" or what they're called, for me it takes a second or two for it to appear. The same problem appears when fast traveling.

The game works great right out of the box using wine, assuming there is no music or sound yet as I've yet to hear a sound.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: UltimaRatioRegum on August 03, 2013, 06:36:34 PM
Many thanks for the detailed feedback.

#1 - "Start New Game" should flash red to denote it does not work. Is this what do you mean, or does it not flash for you playing on wine? If you don't see the flash, maybe I'll have it greyed out instead until you gen a world.
#2 - do you mean the double grey lines? If so... I don't agree, but interesting feedback. What would you suggest instead?
#3 - Are you using 8x8, 10x10, or 12x12? I'll look at the g/y.
#4 - Thanks :)
#5 - It should display instantly, and it always does for me. Do you mean you press Enter, the game "stops" as it's busy generating that area, then after a second or two the "Offloading..." bit appears? If so, I fear that is a wine-only problem, but I'll look into it.

Otherwise, very pleased it works in wine (apart from those two issues which may be wine-only). How long does it take to gen a map grid?
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: miki151 on August 03, 2013, 06:59:10 PM
I've just tried your game under VMware & Windows 7. Works nice and fast. I like the way the game looks. You've implemented character facing and it's pretty neat. How do you indicate which way NPCs are facing? By the way, is it possible to do anything in the game besides walking around?

You should put keyboard controls in the guidebook, right now they are only in the menu as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: halvorg on August 03, 2013, 07:37:52 PM
Many thanks for the detailed feedback.

#1 - "Start New Game" should flash red to denote it does not work. Is this what do you mean, or does it not flash for you playing on wine? If you don't see the flash, maybe I'll have it greyed out instead until you gen a world.
#2 - do you mean the double grey lines? If so... I don't agree, but interesting feedback. What would you suggest instead?
#3 - Are you using 8x8, 10x10, or 12x12? I'll look at the g/y.
#4 - Thanks :)
#5 - It should display instantly, and it always does for me. Do you mean you press Enter, the game "stops" as it's busy generating that area, then after a second or two the "Offloading..." bit appears? If so, I fear that is a wine-only problem, but I'll look into it.

Otherwise, very pleased it works in wine (apart from those two issues which may be wine-only). How long does it take to gen a map grid?

#5 yep, exactly what I mean.
#1: Yeah neither start new game nor load saved game flashes red if no worlds/saves exist.
As long as it works properly in windows I wouldn't worry much about it, #5 is only a (minor) issue for people on low end pc's I suspect.

#2: I mean the squiggly white overlapping (pretzel) lines along the main window border. It isn't a big deal, I just think they stand out.
#3: 12x12. I'm unused to read large amounts of monospaced text though, probably why.

Generating a new map grid takes about 10 seconds on an old Centrino 2 laptop.

I can't seem to tell whether there is water under a tree's branches. This could perhaps be a problem in the future if you are fighting something and start swimming without meaning to? Example: The tiles to the east and south of the player is here water. Image (http://i.imgur.com/mQqgLSJ.png)

Consider wrapping for the arrow-key-navigation in the guidebook.

Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: UltimaRatioRegum on August 04, 2013, 12:55:50 AM
I've just tried your game under VMware & Windows 7. Works nice and fast. I like the way the game looks. You've implemented character facing and it's pretty neat. How do you indicate which way NPCs are facing? By the way, is it possible to do anything in the game besides walking around?

You should put keyboard controls in the guidebook, right now they are only in the menu as far as I can tell.

Thanks for the feedback! That's very good news re: VMware. There is another "view type" where you can see arrows instead of @s etc, where the arrows denote facing direction, but I've disabled it for the time being as, until NPCs exist, there's no real use to it. Yes, indeed! You can explore ziggurats, which are 'Z's on the map. There's a large amount of generated artwork and procedurally generated puzzles within. It's only one aspect of what will be there in the end, but it is the first. I have considered adding the controls to the guidebook before... it may happen, but I don't like duplicating information. Then again, maybe it should be only in the guidebook, and not in the options menu. That... would make a certain amount of sense, now I think about it...


#5 yep, exactly what I mean.
#1: Yeah neither start new game nor load saved game flashes red if no worlds/saves exist.
As long as it works properly in windows I wouldn't worry much about it, #5 is only a (minor) issue for people on low end pc's I suspect.

#2: I mean the squiggly white overlapping (pretzel) lines along the main window border. It isn't a big deal, I just think they stand out.
#3: 12x12. I'm unused to read large amounts of monospaced text though, probably why.

Generating a new map grid takes about 10 seconds on an old Centrino 2 laptop.

I can't seem to tell whether there is water under a tree's branches. This could perhaps be a problem in the future if you are fighting something and start swimming without meaning to? Example: The tiles to the east and south of the player is here water. Image (http://i.imgur.com/mQqgLSJ.png)

Consider wrapping for the arrow-key-navigation in the guidebook.

Interesting, and thanks for the info. I'll see if I can find a way to get that working on linux too, though as you say it's only a small thing.

#2, interesting. I confess I have no plans to remove the border, but I'm certainly up to reconsidering it. As for #3, yeah - I have considered making the fonts more vertical than horizontal, though it would be a big shift. One or two other people have mentioned similar, so I am certainly considering it.

10 seconds is pretty decent. I see what you mean for the water image; I'll try and think up a solution to that one. And wrapping - yes. I will make it so.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: Endorya on August 04, 2013, 12:50:19 PM
I've been following your work with great interest since the time your game still had the fantasy world setting. Sadly, you replaced it over a historical setting, which although interesting, leaves not much room for imagination as far magic and fantasy creatures are concerned. Nonetheless, I'm quite excited with your work and I will keep religiously monitoring it!

Ultima Ratio Regum is definitely the best looking "ASCII" based roguelike I have ever seen. It has the cleanest, most appealing and the most artistic design ever. Really! It is mind blowing! I really can't believe that someone that is into roguelike games can try your game without being visually marveled by it.

Regarding the new features, I think they look great. The ziggurats' dungeons are really neat! The doors images are also top notch. Everything is in tune and placed in harmony as far visual appearance is concerned. But I still need to integrate their visuals with game play, which sadly there is none yet. I still need to experience the game's game play to understand if these dungeons are exciting or boring to explore, too difficult or too easy.

The world you are creating seems vast, which is something I really like as long it's consistency level can back it up. Make sure you keep players busy all the time without having large areas of emptiness during exploration periods.

Some things that I would like to criticize now:

1 - I agree with Halvorg. The window's frame white border is too bright. I don't recommend removing it (because I really like it) but changing it's color to something smoother, like a medium gray or so. That bright white over black is breaking the artistic harmony which can be seen throughout the rest of the game and it unconsciously makes itself look more important then what happens inside it.

2 - Fast traveling on water. I don't know if this is meant just to let the player discover the map at this early stage of game development but it definitely should not happen, unless the player gets a ship or so. Or there is another reason for this? Is this a game play reason?

3 - Map offloading times. This gets a bit annoying after a while, well, maybe because I was just quickly exploring areas over and over but nonetheless it does break the game experience (just a bit). Couldn't you do the offloading in a second thread allowing the player to travel without waiting? You could make the offloading area non-explorable until it finishes the offloading process, just to make sure everything is consistently saved.

4 - I second the mono spaced text reading, it isn't comfortable to read. But I don't think there is much you can do about it without a major restructure. I don't think this is a problem as long there aren't large portions of text to read. Nonetheless, mono spaced text should be something one should always avoid, though it does make the coder's job easier to setup text on the screen ;)

5 - I think it would be best to see the water animations being animated independently of the character's movement, otherwise it is difficult to tell in which direction the river is going while halted. Of course this only makes sense if the stream's direction affects the character in any way. Take DF as example, where you can see the water flickering while your character is idle. What do you think?

The world map is generated incredibly fast, honestly it could take 10 minutes that I would not mind as long the game is worth of it. Do you plan to make the URR's generated worlds persistent?

Looking forward for more updates on URR!
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: UltimaRatioRegum on August 04, 2013, 05:02:06 PM
Thanks for this awesome and detailed feedback. Whilst it is now historical, there are going to be a few unusual things in the game in the future - it will not be staying 100% "realistic", though there aren't going to be fantasy creatures and zombies and whatnot. You'll have to stay tuned for the specifics, but some weird stuff will be happening. Thinks Borges/Murakami/other "magical realist" authors for a good idea of what I mean.

Re: "ASCII" (as you accurately put it!), many thanks. When I realized I wanted more characters, I debated moving to sprites, but I like working and designing within the limitations of just a foreground/background colour per tile, and I'm glad others do too. The aesthetic design of the game is a really key part, and one I intend to continue developing. For example, when weapons are implemented, they will all get a procedurally generated image, much like all the structures and things in ziggurats now.

I'm not sure what you mean by the gameplay - for the time being, at least, the puzzle generation is the gameplay. I realize it's not traditional roguelike gameplay, and rest assured combat etc is on the way, but that's the early gameplay. The next release, 0.4, is going to focus on adding traps to ziggurats to "break up" the puzzle solving. These will NOT be the kind of (in my view) rubbish traps you get in other RLs - they are invisible until seen, only take up one tile, etc. These will be visible traps with triggers (like tripwires, pressure pads, etc) and outcomes (like fire, poison, gas, arrows, etc), and it will be up to the player to navigate around them, over them, or trigger them from a distance, or trick enemies into them, etc.

As for emptiness, cities and villages are planned, along with many other types of dungeon as well as ziggurats (pyramids will be the next, then more... unusual ones...). 0.5 will be focusing on history/civilization generation, and will have some of the early stages of cities beginning to appear, though I don't yet know to what extent you'll be able to interact with them. I totally agree though - if I read your paragraph correctly, you are saying a game like this needs to be "dense" with stuff to do? If so, I totally agree, and I'm working on it :)

CRITICISMS:

1) Hmm, interesting. Nobody's ever mentioned this before, but two in one thread makes me think I should tone it down. I'll give it a milder colour, and your aesthetic criticism makes sense too.

2) Correct. You will *not* be able to travel over water in the future without hiring a ship, and similarly, the map will largely start undiscovered. That is just in place for the time being.

3) Agreed. That goes back to the density issue - once you've spent a long time in a ziggurat and reached the peak, for instance, a few seconds of offloading doesn't seem that bad after 10-30+ minutes on the tile. This will obviously be even stronger once there is more gameplay "in" each map grid, as it were (if you spend an hour exploring a map grid, a few seconds of offloading isn't too bad!), but I agree. I do like the idea of offloading in the background though with two threads. I will most definitely look into it.

4) The problem is, with procedural myths, legends, histories and so on, there will later be lots of text to read. I'm not really sure what the solution to this is, unless I make all fonts into 10x12, 8x10, etc. I'll have to consider this, and maybe making "tall" fonts is the best plan. Hmm. The problem is that the entire game is built around a grid-based font system, as is the main library I'm using, and I'd have to really search for a solution to that.

5) A good point. That's going on the list of "stuff to do one day" for now, as water won't play a big role for a while, but I agree with the principle. Making the flow visible whilst stationary makes a lot of sense!

What do you mean by persistent? Although unusual for the kind of game that generates an entire world, not just will there be permadeath, but you will get only one character per world. There's a whole bunch of reasons for this I've posted on my blog, but the long story short is that there's going to be a weird and complicated plot, and I want the world to reroll each time. I mean, all roguelikes without a "world" do this - you do not explore the same dungeon in Nethack twice! - and I'm just expanding that onto a bigger scale. However, death at the start of the game will be rare, so you won't be alternating between dying and generating a new world endlessly. A one/two minute generation window would be annoying as hell if a new player died as often as they do on classic RLs, but although I intend for the game to be very, very difficult, the very early game won't be. Unlike most RLs, I want the endgame to actually be the hardest part! Anyway, thanks for the fantastic feedback. It is immensely appreciated.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: miki151 on August 04, 2013, 05:25:40 PM
Could you explain what these puzzles are about? I entered a Ziggurat and noticed a few blocks lying around that I could move, but I didn't give it much thought. Perhaps an explicit hint within the game about the puzzle and what needs to be achieved would be good.

About the character facing again. I noticed that when walking, the first key press only changes the direction, and only then the character starts moving. This is mildly annoying in a dungeon (or Ziggurat :)), where you move around a lot. I would suggest moving right away on first press, and for changing direction without moving, use a control + arrow combination.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: UltimaRatioRegum on August 04, 2013, 07:20:15 PM
Could you explain what these puzzles are about? I entered a Ziggurat and noticed a few blocks lying around that I could move, but I didn't give it much thought. Perhaps an explicit hint within the game about the puzzle and what needs to be achieved would be good.

About the character facing again. I noticed that when walking, the first key press only changes the direction, and only then the character starts moving. This is mildly annoying in a dungeon (or Ziggurat :)), where you move around a lot. I would suggest moving right away on first press, and for changing direction without moving, use a control + arrow combination.

Try the 'l'ook function (that is a lower case L). That's all I will say. There will be more explicit hints later, but if you use the look function, it's very clear. And I specifically recommended checking the controls at game-start for just this reason! : )

It does - that is because turning around takes in-game time, and that matters for combat (or rather, it will matter for combat). If I switched to the system you've suggested, turning around would take a lot longer because you'd be moving at the same time. You can hold down Ctrl at the moment, actually, to move WITHOUT turning direction, to sidestep, move backwards, etc. Facing is very important, so I want to give you maximum control over it. However, as ever, I'm willing to consider a change there.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: miki151 on August 04, 2013, 07:35:31 PM
Okay, I'll have to 'l'ook around once more :)

So there are 3 types of possible movement here:
- turning without moving, if it's required before movement in given direction
- moving without turning
- moving and automatically turning if required.

You've implemented the first two, and the last one is what a player would normally be used to from playing other roguelikes. What I suggest is to put the first two under control and alt modifiers, and the last one by default. Of course it's a matter of getting used to, and you're probably so familiar with it that you don't even notice, so I'm merely suggesting that it's a bit unnatural for a new player.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: Endorya on August 04, 2013, 08:26:00 PM
Thanks for this awesome and detailed feedback. Whilst it is now historical, there are going to be a few unusual things in the game in the future - it will not be staying 100% "realistic", though there aren't going to be fantasy creatures and zombies and whatnot. You'll have to stay tuned for the specifics, but some weird stuff will be happening. Thinks Borges/Murakami/other "magical realist" authors for a good idea of what I mean.
Now you got me even more curious about URR! :D

I'm not sure what you mean by the gameplay(...)
What I meant was having all features that you have planed for the ziggurats' type dungeons implement so everyone can fully appreciate how these dungeons will play themselves.

(...)if I read your paragraph correctly, you are saying a game like this needs to be "dense" with stuff to do? If so, I totally agree, and I'm working on it :)
Yes, that was exactly what I was referring to, keeping the player entertaining but mainly during explorations, as explorations are prone to become boring if not properly handled. But then of course, it all depends on what you have planned and how you want the game to play and feel.

1) Hmm, interesting. Nobody's ever mentioned this before, but two in one thread makes me think I should tone it down. I'll give it a milder colour, and your aesthetic criticism makes sense too.
If we are really the only 2 people "complaining" about it, then I don't believe this issue is something you should be worrying about. Though, I still think that if this is something you can easily fix you should do it so, trying to keep as much people happy about it as possible is usually a good thing ;)

2) Correct. You will *not* be able to travel over water in the future without hiring a ship, and similarly, the map will largely start undiscovered. That is just in place for the time being.
You will make it then exactly the way I was hoping for! Sweet!

4) The problem is, with procedural myths, legends, histories and so on, there will later be lots of text to read. I'm not really sure what the solution to this is, unless I make all fonts into 10x12, 8x10, etc. I'll have to consider this, and maybe making "tall" fonts is the best plan. Hmm. The problem is that the entire game is built around a grid-based font system, as is the main library I'm using, and I'd have to really search for a solution to that.
Honestly, leave it as it is for now, unless leaving it now means having to redesign ALOT more later on. If that is the case then you should really consider a solution as soon as possible. I think this is an issue which will affect most players. Reading mono spaced text is something our brains are not used to, specially cubic letters having the same with and height. But then again, URR will function perfectly well with or without mono spaced fonts, it is just a matter of providing a more comfortable or less comfortable way of reading text, i.e. it won't make the game unplayable or less enjoyable by having mono spaced text.

What do you mean by persistent?
I asked this because I wasn't sure if players would need to create new worlds whenever they wanted to start new adventures or if they could reuse existing ones. Honestly, it is fine with me either way because I have mixed feelings about persistent worlds. Well, I actually lean towards creating a new world whenever a new character is created as this way I make sure that each world is unique and that previous knowledge regarding world exploration is not inherited between characters.

I'm really glad if somehow I managed to help you in any way. I never thought I could actually "chat" with the URR's creator. The honor is all mine. :D

Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: Endorya on August 04, 2013, 09:01:51 PM
About puzzles:

This afternoon I tried URR again and after I ran and quit it about 20 times in a row I moved towards the zuggurats to explore the puzzles. Don't worry, the game is working fine, I was just executing it and quitting it so I could contemplate the different types of "ASCII" images decorating the main menu. Man, they are really great! It would be really cool to be able to randomly switch the title screen's images by pressing a specific key, just to capture the desired mood before playing it. :D

Anyway, about the puzzles. I got inside this ziggurat dungeon having 5 hints and about a dozen of blocks and a dozen of pressure plates. And here is the problem, I have a short memory so I kept forgetting the hints over and over as I looked at the blocks' figures (they look so very, very cool by the way!) and then I kept forgetting which image was in each cube. Yeah, this can be entirely my fault, no one is to blame for me having a low memory brain. But the truth is, it ended up being kind of a frustrating experience, having also into consideration the way the it works to look at stuff.

Currently you have to make the following steps in order to look at something:
1 - Move towards the object
2 - Face the object (if not facing it)
3 - Press 'l' to enter looking mode
4 - Move the looking cursor over the object
5 - Press 'Enter' to access the features
6 - Read the options available
7 - Press the corresponding key to bring the amplified image related to the selected feature.

My suggestion (see if this makes sense to you):
All hints and blocks related to a specific puzzle could be memorized by the "character" so you could access this information in the character's journal or something. There you could access the "Ziggurat puzzle X" in which you could view all stuff related to that puzzle, this would include the image of the blocks and all hints. This could in fact work as in real life. Archeologists do take notes and drawings of important data (photographs nowadays).

This would decrease the difficult level of your puzzles as they are, but you could actually bump the puzzles difficulty to compensate this feature. One thing I can tell you, it tortures me :'( the way it works at the moment as it keeps remembering of my brain's crappy memorizing capacity. And unfortunately, there are others like me, at least this is what I want to believe. ::)
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: Endorya on August 04, 2013, 09:28:35 PM
About the character facing again. I noticed that when walking, the first key press only changes the direction, and only then the character starts moving. This is mildly annoying in a dungeon (or Ziggurat :)), where you move around a lot. I would suggest moving right away on first press, and for changing direction without moving, use a control + arrow combination.
I think miki151 has a point here. The truth is that you can walk while facing another direction. I remember when I fought trolls in an "ancient" version of URR, I would loose a turn to look back to see how far the trolls perusing me were. In a real life situation you would know how close the trolls would be (assuming trolls were real :P) because you could still twist briefly your back and neck to look back as well as hearing the troll's heavy footsteps coming after you. That's why I think 360º view works better because it simulates more effectively the character's senses, including turning your neck in every direction while moving in a specific bearing.

In your game, I think you could maintain your vision limitation angle while revealing your foes position in every direction, regardless of the direction the character may be facing. They would be revealed by listening to their footsteps, heavy breathing, grunting and other sounds. And if you really want to be detailed about it, this could be relative to the creature's noise level versus the character's hearing capability. Large creatures do tend to make more noise than smaller ones. Sneaking foes could would definitely be harder or impossible to spot.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: Vanguard on August 04, 2013, 11:35:25 PM
The presentation in this game is incredible.  I never knew that ASCII (or pseudo-ASCII?) could look so good.

Edit:

Some of these puzzles are ambiguous.  "The lifegiver" could be the sun or the water.  I have one clue that says "the regrown branches and the average structure are together and adjacent to the falling leaves and a serpent."  Are the regrown branches and average structure together in between the falling leaves and the serpent, or are the branches and structure together and next to the leaves and serpent which are also together?  Does it matter what order are they go in?  I have no way of finding out other than to guess.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: Anvilfolk on August 05, 2013, 08:18:29 AM
Agreed that memorising some things would be nice! I just solved the first level of a ziggurat, but just thinking of "looking" at a tile, then pressing "a" for the block, and then remembering which blocks have what is a process that's a lot more involved than it could be.

Mousing over the blocks bringing you up a description would immediately solve this. Same for the inscriptions! Provided, of course, you've looked at them before perhaps?
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: miki151 on August 05, 2013, 09:36:58 AM
I just realized that only walking opposite to where you're facing requires two key presses, sorry for the confusion.

Another suggestion though. 'L'ooking would be easier if it automatically rotated the character in the right direction. Right now I 'l'ook, realize that it doesn't work because I'm not facing that location, hit escape, rotate and 'l'ook again. I also agree with others that looking requires way too many key presses.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: UltimaRatioRegum on August 05, 2013, 01:03:51 PM
Whew, many replies. Thanks all for taking the time to comment in so much detail. So, messages in order:

Miki #1 - I see what you mean. For the next major release (I'm releasing 0.3.1 with a few fixes in the next week, but I mean 0.4) I'll do some experimenting with that system. I take your point though - right now, turning-without-moving is the default, but that's actually likely to be a very rare situation. I'll make move-and-turn the default, put turn-without-move and move-without-turn on Ctrl/Alt or whatever, and see how that works. But I think it'll work well, and I think you're right.

Endorya #1 - understood. Yes, indeed, there needs to be more to do per map grid, and that's why I intend to focus on traps for 0.4 to add more gameplay. I take your point about the main menu borders - I'll just have to see how I feel about it when I return to the game for 0.3.1 in a few days! See, in principle I know you're right about mono-spaced text, yet it doesn't bother me. But I'm not sure if I've just become used to it, or I've never been bothered! Nevertheless, again for 0.4, I'll do some messing around with different font types and see how things look. For the Travel/Minimap thing, for instance, I double-spaced the text, and I felt that made it a lot more readable. Am I imagining that, or does it really make a difference? Got it re: persistence. Yeah, the entire world rerolls upon death. Your comment about knowledge between characters is one of the big issues - if Character B has Character A's knowledge - how?! If Character B doesn't, it encourages the player to slow down the game and if near death, suddenly scribble down loads of notes about the world, and that's rubbish. Thus, the world rerolls. Haha, thanks, and you really have! All constructive criticism is good.

Endorya #2 - haha, glad you like the opening menu. I specifically didn't want to have a key to generate new landscapes as I wanted it to be a long-term variation (like, say, the subtitles on DF), but maybe I should add a regenerate-main-menu key. Anyway, about the puzzle, I think there's two things here. Firstly, memory, secondly, the process of understanding the puzzle. As for memory, I always scribble down clues when I'm playtesting them, either in notepad or on paper (though paper is better since I can write down the right orientation more easily than in notepad). If you aren't doing so, I'd suggest doing so. I know a lot of other people playtesting have been doing so, and I think it's the best system. Think somewhat akin to Fez, where if you don't have a pen and paper handy, you're in trouble!

As for the second issue of ease-of-viewing-clues, I think the idea of having "unsolved puzzles" recorded in a journal is an excellent one. I've been thinking for a while about the kind of functionality I want in a finalized journal system. I hadn't thought of adding something like that, but the idea makes a lot of sense. I can't say when I'll implement it, because if I'm going to start working on a journal system I want to get the basics of the infrastructure right first time, but I like the idea a lot.

Endorya #3 - I very much like the sound idea. A lot. And I do see your point about being able to detect enemies behind you. If you are moving north, say, then it might print fairly accurate '?'s behind you to denote where you hear sounds, or some similar system. I really like the idea, and will include it, and definitely tie to a stealth/sneaking system. I had been intending to have sounds, though I hadn't thought about how just yet, but that mechanic sounds really good to me.

Vanguard - first, thanks :). Glad you like it. Huh, I hadn't considered the lifegiver. Believe me, I deleted a LOT of clues that were ambiguous, but I hadn't realized any vagueness in that one. Will remove. That clue is meant to mean BCAD, basically. So the first two are the two in the middle, and they are between the other two, in that order. I was expecting the player to "learn" what that wording means, but I agree, that's very vague. I'll change that. I put a lot of work into making the clues "ambiguous but explicit", which is a weird combination, but you've found two issues where that didn't work. Thanks, and I'll change those for 0.3.1.

Anvilfolk - yeah, memorizing is definitely a good idea. I'll think about how to best implement it. The block colours are designed to aid recognition, and when you grab a block, the message saying "You grab the block" tells you what is on the block ("You grab the block with a sun pattern", or something similar), to prevent you having to endlessly re-look. I have considered mouse support, and maybe I'll need to include that. Hmm. One easier way would be to remove the "press enter" step and have it automatically print/list everything on a tile by simply moving the cursor over. Thoughts?

Miki #2 - Hmmmm. Looking rotating you... I'm not sure about that. I'll have to think about it. But I agree looking takes too many keypresses - what do you think about the "removing pressing enter" as a variation, so it always prints the list of things on that tile? I am reluctant to make looking rotate the character since rotating takes time, and again, I don't want to get the player, if they're trying to look at something, maybe accidentally turning in combat. But maybe I should incorporate that. Hmm.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: Endorya on August 05, 2013, 08:44:04 PM
Anyway, about the puzzle, I think there's two things here. Firstly, memory, secondly, the process of understanding the puzzle. As for memory, I always scribble down clues when I'm playtesting them, either in notepad or on paper (though paper is better since I can write down the right orientation more easily than in notepad). If you aren't doing so, I'd suggest doing so. I know a lot of other people playtesting have been doing so, and I think it's the best system. Think somewhat akin to Fez, where if you don't have a pen and paper handy, you're in trouble!
I did take notes of the 5 hints on the notepad regarding the puzzle I mentioned previously and this is exactly what I was referring about. I mean, it is totally fine if you rely on paper and pencil to work out logic to solve a given puzzle but I think the game should save the player from the unnecessary task of storing crucial information about puzzles outside the game.

Storing information is something computers are really good at, so why not letting URR help the player down this path? All information relevant to a puzzle could be placed inside a journal entry (or something), from which the player could view all hints and possibly the images of the blocks at any given time. I think this would have a tremendous impact towards puzzle solving as far as comfort is concerned, because viewing hints and dozens of blocks through a successive and repetitive number of actions can and will be tiring for some people.

But then again, if no one else had complained about it so far, it probably means you can ignore it. :D
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: Vanguard on August 06, 2013, 03:47:03 AM
I just used notepad when the puzzles got difficult.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: Krice on August 06, 2013, 08:30:28 AM
It could be an idea to list keyboard commands somewhere. I don't know if such list exists, but at least it doesn't appear on ? menu where it should be.

I think there are players for this kind of game as there is for Dwarf Fortress, but this is not for me. I wandered about ten minutes in a forest and then quit. I need more action put in front of me without having to desperately search it in a gigantic empty world.

The movement style didn't feel strange, maybe because the fov cone instructed my brains to understand it.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: Endorya on August 06, 2013, 02:12:13 PM
I think there are players for this kind of game as there is for Dwarf Fortress, but this is not for me. I wandered about ten minutes in a forest and then quit. I need more action put in front of me without having to desperately search it in a gigantic empty world.
The world feels empty because the author still needs to add content to it. What you see is far from being the final version but the tip of the iceberg composing URR; at the moment it is simply a showcase for general world and terrain generation. You can conclude this after reading all features that the author plans to include in future releases of this massive project of his ;)
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: UltimaRatioRegum on August 11, 2013, 04:45:26 PM
@ Endorya #1 - yeah, I like the journal idea. I'll have to think of a high-level system for the journal, as I say, if I'm going to implement it in the near future. Nobody else has complained, but I still really like the idea. I'll need a lot of thought first, though, so I can't promise it for 0.4!

@ Vanguard - wise move, sir.

@ Krice - there is a keys list, and I was hoping people would read the intro message that says where it is :)! But I've since moved it to the Guidebook for 0.3.1 which I've just released, since you're right, that makes a lot more sense. Similarly, that introductory message was meant to let people know to use 'T' to travel and what to search for. I'm not trying to be critical, I honestly want feedback - did you just skip through that message? Or did you read but it wasn't memorable/interesting enough? If I need to adjust the opening message, I any feedback on it you may have would be great.

@ Endorya #2 - ah, CONTENT. More content *is* on its way. I do want the game to be very "dense" by the end of things, as we discussed in an earlier message. The world map should be full of stuff after later releases...
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: Krice on August 11, 2013, 07:46:49 PM
Or did you read but it wasn't memorable/interesting enough? If I need to adjust the opening message

I don't even remember any opening message. No one reads those.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: UltimaRatioRegum on August 13, 2013, 12:49:21 PM
Or did you read but it wasn't memorable/interesting enough? If I need to adjust the opening message

I don't even remember any opening message. No one reads those.

Then it seems I cannot win :). Either way, I've moved Controls to Guidebook, but I don't really see what else I can do beyond letting people know where to find the controls.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: Endorya on August 14, 2013, 10:08:38 AM
Just out of curiosity, have you considered adding mouse support, even if it is the last feature to add into URR?
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: UltimaRatioRegum on August 14, 2013, 03:32:52 PM
Just out of curiosity, have you considered adding mouse support, even if it is the last feature to add into URR?

I have considered it, and there's a good chance I will. Probably for the look function (right click?) and move (left click?) as defaults, but I'd have to think about it. The move option certainly wouldn't happen until I've implemented methods for you to implement a go-to function to a particular square without having to take every tile yourself, for example.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: Endorya on August 14, 2013, 04:06:02 PM
I have considered it, and there's a good chance I will. Probably for the look function (right click?) and move (left click?) as defaults, but I'd have to think about it. The move option certainly wouldn't happen until I've implemented methods for you to implement a go-to function to a particular square without having to take every tile yourself, for example.
I was referring to general interface input administration, like managing the inventory, skill trees, pressing buttons etc but mostly importing, yeah, the look function. I would suggest executing the look function simply by hovering tiles with the mouse without requiring clicks and popping out actions over that tile with RMB (if available). As for moving the character, I actually prefer keys. In fact, I would prefer handling char movement with QWE + ASD + ZXC keys, while having mouse-look-function control with the other hand. That would be neat and feel truly comfortable :D
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: AgingMinotaur on August 19, 2013, 08:22:04 AM
Just tried out version 3 (not 3.1), peeked around in the overworld a bit and solved a ziggurat puzzle. I agree with the general consensus that the interface for looking, reading clues, repositioning blocks etc. is a bit clunky ATM, and am happy to see you're working on that.

Some suggestions I think haven't been made, which might work to make puzzle solving more smooth: After a block has been thoroughly examined, it might be "identified", changing name from "stone block" to "stone block with lizard carving" etc. (as they are called when you grab them). It might also be an idea to let the character remember unseen squares, so that once I've looked at all the blocks, I can use the "l"ook command to conveniently see which blocks are where, without having to move around a lot to do so.

Other than that, I must say the game looks gorgeous! Both the ascii landscapes and the block carvings are just mind-blowing -- that does a lot for the overall experience. The procedural puzzles are also quite cool in and of themselves, with room for expansion, as well (imagine for higher level puzzles, stacking a procedural sokoban puzzle on top of the existing system, so you have to figure out not only which blocks go where, but even in which order and path to drag them there -- or puzzles that activate a trap (locked door, poison gas, rolling boulder) if you get them wrong 8)). I think if you get a UI that let players more easily try out different solutions, slightly ambiguous hints needn't be a show stopper. Now, if it takes minutes to try out whether hint A refers to block X or block Y, impatient donkeys like myself might get stopped in our tracks.

By the way, I was a complete Borges nut for many years, I read practically all his ficciones in my late teens/early twenties. I even added the Zahir as an artifact to my game Squirm, but I still think URR has a chance at being the first finished RL with Borges allusions ;D

Finally, for us Linux users, running this in Wine is not an option, as it's impossibly slow. I won't be able to seriously play your game unless a Linux version comes around, as I haven't booted Windows since your last release of URR ;) I'm hoping you'll see the light and distribute the byte code at some point. ::) Here (http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/66616/how-can-i-prevent-a-client-from-seeing-my-code-written-in-an-interpreted-languag) seems to be a relatively calm and collected discussion addressing your needs in this regard.

As always,
Minotauros
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: AgingMinotaur on August 19, 2013, 10:10:03 AM
By the way, maybe utterly off topic, I came to think about URR the other day as I stumbled upon this utterly amazing collection of aztec facsimiles: www.famsi.org/research/loubat/index.html Who knows if they might provide you, or anybody else reading this, with some inspiration or entertainment.

As always,
Minotauros
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: UltimaRatioRegum on August 20, 2013, 11:51:57 AM
@ Endorya - oh, yeah, I'd definitely add other stuff for the mouse too. That kind of hover/RMB system is the kind of thing I imagined for it. Interesting combo preference - hitting 'N' will let you use those keys, though obviously no mouse control yet. I'll definitely look into adding the mouse support, though, as I realize a lot of people would like it rather than keyboard purism!

@ Minotauros - thanks for the two posts. Yeah, I'm going to at least remove a single button-press from the looking system and just have it display what's on the tile automatically. That's the current thinking, but we'll see what else can be done. I agree re: changing the name; will implement. I did have a similar idea, as 'g'rabbing a block does mention in the message log what type it is anyway, but I agree there's no harm in adding another system for that. You've read my mind for the implementation of certain traps for "wrong" answers - I might be adding that in this release, since traps in general are the focus for 0.4's release. I'm not sure I agree about ambiguous hints though - I'm going to be uploading the first part of a retrospective on 0.3 next week, but making sure solutions were cryptic, but unambiguous, was a crucial part of the design. Similarly, if there IS a trap-based punishment for an incorrect answer, you shouldn't ever have to rely on trial and error!

A fellow Borges nut, excellent! There's going to be a lot of Borgesian weirdness, rest assured. We won't see any in the next release, but 0.5 is going to start implementing some hints in that direction. That's weird re: Wine; I've had some people say it works fine, and some like your comment say it's unplayable. Strange. Thanks for the link - is there anything else on the topic you can throw my way? I know *nothing* of Linux, and I'm not even totally sure what the "byte code" in this context means, though I really do want to get a Linux version out. Does the PYC (if that's correct) mean it can't just be opened in a text editor?

Also, that's an awesome list. In the future I intend to add a lot of murals and other graphics to dungeons, and that's a really nice bit of inspiration I've not seen. They will also have gameplay use, I feel compelled to add, rather than being merely pretty decoration...
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: AgingMinotaur on August 20, 2013, 01:19:56 PM
Byte code is the same as *.pyc. If you open it in a text editor, it comes out mostly as garbled machine language, although variable names (and strings?) seem to be intact. As far as I've understood, *.pyc files can be "reverse engineered" in some sense, but not without jumping through hoops, and they're not human readable in themselves.

For example, try to download this: http://www.midboss.net/download/MidBoss_Other.zip and see if you can manage to read the code. (To actually run it, you need Pygame.)

Sadly, I don't know of any way to "compile" a Python script for Linux, so if you want a working Linux version, I think your only viable option is to distribute the *.pyc-files in one way or the other. There exists the equivalent of installers for Linux (with file extensions *.deb or *.rpm), but these are mostly for convenience – the user will still end up with all the *.pycs on his or her hard drive.

Regarding Wine, people having different experience may have to do with the individual setup, running different versions of Wine and so forth. But I'm guessing it's a hardware issue in many cases. Me, I'm sitting on a venerable netbook, hardly a gamer's machine. It's normal for Wine to run slower than Windows, but users with powerful hardware might simply not get noticeable lag.

As always,
Minotauros
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: AgingMinotaur on August 20, 2013, 06:06:32 PM
I looked a bit more into this, and it seems there are ways to freeze (http://wiki.python.org/moin/Freeze) Python scripts into "pure" executables, also for Linux. Read more eg. here (http://docs.python-guide.org/en/latest/shipping/freezing/) and here (http://hackerboss.com/how-to-distribute-commercial-python-applications/). I guess I'd look into cx_Freeze, if I were in your shoes. Sorry for misleading you earlier :-[ As you can tell, I'm talking out of my arse ::)

As always,
Minotauros
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: UltimaRatioRegum on August 26, 2013, 01:25:15 PM
Many thanks for the info. Interesting re: Wine - I think you're right about varying performance from different setups. It's just another good reason to get a Linux version... but at the same time, another good reason to continue optimizing the game. Hopefully I can hack out saving times quite a bit by multithreading it so that when you start moving on the Travel map, it saves the previous grid in the background whilst you move. Loading can be sped up a little, but I think saving can be improved quite a lot more.

Right, freeze must be the one to look at then. Hopefully it works *from* Windows, rather than having to compile on Linux, but a quick Google suggests you have to be running it on the system you want the compiled version for. We'll see. Haha, no worries about said arse-talking. It's not like I have the slightest idea about this Linux whatnot :). It'll have to come last though, since at the moment I'm busy working on the mechanics for 0.4. Developing traps is proving a lot of fun...

(http://s10.postimg.org/71d1gqfpl/Ulp.png)
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: Gr3yling on December 03, 2013, 10:14:56 PM
Your games looks very beautiful, Ultima.  It really is ascii art.  Just wanted to say that I am impressed with it.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: tangoliber on February 03, 2014, 04:08:34 PM
I'm very excited for this project.  I love Borges and world simulation.  I'm not really sure where this game is going to go, but I love your influences.   
Obviously, it is very beautiful too.
Title: Re: Ultima Ratio Regum development feedback
Post by: JollyRoger on April 11, 2014, 06:12:08 AM
I really admire your skill to make true art from basic symbols.