Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Game Discussion => Early Dev => Topic started by: jasonpickering on July 18, 2013, 12:50:50 AM
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So I have finally decided to go back to Microgue. I have been reworking it slowly art and design wise for the past months. I am starting from scratch though as the code for the original version is basically held together with tape. It was one of my first major games and the code is extremely poor.
So on to the actual design. I am going to try tossing out the dive in and return gameplay I think. I am going to try building the game similar to Auro where the score is based on how far the player gets. I am also thinking about doing away with the idea of stairs. instead it will be clearing an entire level to move on to the next one. I would also like to add some items or something to make the game a little more varied each playthrough.
if anyone knows how to host SWFs on a tumblr that would be great to know. I had some code but it didn't display in some browsers
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Worked on this a bit more. I currently have
1. Player Movement
2. Enemy Rat
3. Turn System
4. Randomized Enemy Placement
So I have all that in and working. I still need to add Player death, and going to the next room. Right now I am working on level design. The old version had pre-built boards which I feel work a bit better, then randomizing the level construction, but I want the floors to remain fairly open, so I might set it so it places like one or two columns around the room for the player to dance around.
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Another Update. Game contains 3 enemies currently.
1. Rats: can move in the cardinal directions
2. Skeletons: can only move Diagonals
3. Goblins: can move in all 8 directions
I will have a build up for testing this week so everyone can enjoy.
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I rather liked the stairs progression before - it's nice to not have to kill all enemies on the level.
Anyway, good to see your restart is proceeding well. But you really should set yourself a hard date and finish it. You had plenty of versions before that were sufficiently polished to call done!
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Yeah I am thinking about adding the Stairs back in. After doing a lot of testing without them. I have noticed that sometimes it is beneficial to not kill all the Monsters.
as for a hard date I am aiming for September. That gives me all of August to work on it. Largest item now is figuring out a good score system and also the art. The original was okay, but looked far to abstract at large screen sizes.
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868-HACK is toying with a score system based on back to back wins - could be interesting to do the same. In general you need some motivation for repeated plays.
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does he ramp up the difficulty each play through or is it just a base line difficult? I always felt my first version of Microgue could be a bit to easy.
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Difficulty stays the same throughout, though with the randomness there's highs and lows.
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so Game coming along much better. stairs are in.
Not sure if I want to do the in and out gameplay I might just have the player aim for 10 floors to get the treasure. I also might do it where each time the game is deeper. so if a Hero grabs the stone from floor 8, the new final floor will be 9. forcing the player to always get deeper after each successful run. I think this adds a level of difficulty.
still unsure about specials. in the current version they almost seem needed because the game is very hard, but I have not added in Traps yet, which were a great way of disposing of monsters in the original. I would just like to add a few different characters.
I want to have a build up but I am having trouble with a web build at the moment. I am hoping to sort it out this weekend so I can get tons of feedback.
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Added traps back into the game and they increase as you play. Tomorrow I will add winning when reaching the eighth floor. And restarting upon death and then I can start moving right along. Still unsure about a PC build. It would be really nice but I am looking for sites to host it as I don't want to do it myself.
I am either going to make floors increasingly harder. Like after floor 2 there are traps, or make each run harder. So second run has traps. Still up in the air. Difficulty is a hard thing to do.
I don't know about score. I was going to do floor is all that matters, but I really love the score mechanic of risk vs reward in 868-HACK.
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868-HACK has score integrated into the game very carefully - I'm not sure you can just tack that on in Microgue. Unless maybe score is number of monsters killed? There'd be an inherent risk to deliberate monster chasing when you could just run for the exit.
For PC hosting maybe speak to Aaron Steed? He's got good experience at that sort of thing, and also knows about which hosting sites are good to use.
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Yeah, Keeping track of levels will probably be enough. Replay-ability is always something I always worry about.
as promised here is a build. Check it out.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21825227/Prototypes/Microgue_Newest.swf
controls:
tap a space to move and kill Enemies
hit R to restart after dying.
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another update. added the UI in. The UI will have the floor number. space for your two spells or items. and then a Help block. the player will be able to tap that and a spell or a monster to get info on it.
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another update!.
added the first test spell. You can hit the A key to cast freeze. it will freeze all enemies for 3 turns. I have also added Mines as traps too.
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Difficulty stays the same throughout, though with the randomness there's highs and lows.
actually some plays are kind of "boss levels" that temporarily ramp up the difficulty, but it's not a constant increase
this turned out to be important so that "playing a million times getting 1 point each" wasn't a viable strategy for streak score, bc that's not very interesting. as it was the randomness would probably kill you eventually, but it was pretty slow since i'd balanced the game to usually be completable - now you will get killed sooner so there's stronger pressure to score in each play-through. (it also gives a motivation other than score to play through repeatedly - to see the cool/hard challenges.)
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another update!.
added the first test spell. You can hit the A key to cast freeze. it will freeze all enemies for 3 turns. I have also added Mines as traps too.
I must say I preferred the original idea of no player powers, with all special effects being on enemy deaths or interactions.
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Monsters will still behave the same way with Yetis freezing enemies, but I kept finding myself getting into an unsolvable situation. Where the player was doomed, no matter what they did. It always feels really unfair.
I wonder if its because I make the levels larger. I plan on doing testing today with different sized levels. It also seems levels with pillars to hide around are much better then ones that have the walls jutting out.
Also if I did do the "spells" they would be a one time use. just a small boost for the player. It would be something for use only in desperate situations. I think the enemies are a bit shallow at the moment. so as I add more and they get to be a bit more diverse then just rat and skeleton it might feel completely different.
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did some more work. I am still on the fence about the spells. I might do something where I add more traps to the game and those traps are spells. so there may be a tile that freezes all enemies. I could also make it so monsters could use the traps too. This is all backburner stuff though.
My next goal is to add the ending. I really liked a game called Cave Noire. It has a mechanic where you choose a "Quest" before going in. so for example a Quest might be collect 4 gold. when you collect 4 gold the exit appears and you win. but now that quest reads collect 5 gold. so it slowly increments the player as they travel forward. I might try something like that with the final Level, as the player wins the dungeon becomes deeper and deeper.
I would also like to add unlockables but haven't really thought of what to add, aside from just different player sprites like the original game had.
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Do we really need to see the turn order of all the baddies? I know it has a fundamental impact on the game, but I think that most roguelikes have managed quite well without it. I mean, you might as well illustrate the logic order of which directions are examined first (in some roguelikes you can game the AI in certain directions) - that would be more important than which enemy acted first. But both of those I think get in the way of just playing the game.
60fps is noble, but not really essential for a turn based game. It's putting a strain on older phones as well. 30fps is quite acceptable.
Gameplay is good. Squads of rats are quite hard to deal with because the create a wall of check, which is quite interesting. Not quite sure about the timing on spikes, but managed to tactically use them in this version as opposed to classic Microgue where they seemed like decoration. Was a bit on the fence about the bigger map, but it seems to create more interesting problems. Wouldn't go larger though.
Re hosting: If you want ultra cheap hosting then you should take a look at Amazon S3. It's pay as you go:
http://aws.amazon.com/s3/
As for hosting a site, I can't really help. My host is pretty shit. But I've got all the executables for my games on S3, because I only get charged when people download and I get charged next to nothing compared to most services. At least you won't exceed your bandwidth limit like you can on dropbox.
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Yeah I think you are right about the turn order. I could Just have all the enemies move at once. Originally Microgue was built turn for turn because I did not know how to do all the enemies move at once. I have since then figured that out.
as for frame rate. It doesn't really matter. I am using a variable timestep so I can just swap the framerate and the game will play exactly the same. It was just left over from a previous prototype that was a platformer that I grabbed the loading code from.
The spikes currently go off every 3 turns. although there are some bugs that are interrupting turn order. as for the map I wouldn't go bigger then this. I spent a lot of time trying different sized maps and this one felt just right.
Thanks I will check out that hosting. I guess I would need to build a Microgue site too.
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Another Update. Added in the Yeti, and rebuilt the level loading code, so monsters don't spawn on traps, and traps dont spawn on stairs. Next is redoing the enemy movement code so they all move at the same time.
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This is a big improvement on the old version you posted a while back. Allowing the player to move up to two squares in one direction was a great choice. I like the different enemy types too.
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Thanks. I hope to continue adding enemies. I am still trying to figure out how to do the enemies though. I have a few ideas.
1. Enemies are in a big list with different rarities and just drawn and placed (Original Microgue worked this way)
2. Build a List of enemies prior to entering and also theme Dungeon possibly (Tomes full of Skeletons and Rats)
3. Enemies are added to the pool by level. (Yetis show up after level two)
Edit:
Added my new favorite enemy tonight, the Demon. He switches from Cardinal to Diagonal movement every other turn. Makes it a pain to keep your eyes on.
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Jason I like enemies to fit the level theme, if there is a level theme. For that you'd need various themes and then populate from a list coinciding with that theme. So you'd need lots of monsters, some of which only show up in certain themes, maybe some that only show up after a certain level.
You can cheat a bit and have the white mice show up in snow level, the brown ones in a forest, etc...merely a reskinning of the monster. As long as you have some that are unique to each theme I think you are okay, and maybe one per theme that only shows up after a certain level.
Like The Snowman only shows up in the snow levels, and the Yeti only shows up in later snow levels.
The Bat is a cave level only, the vampire bat comes in later caves.
Imp is in lava/hell/fire levels, and the demon in later lava/hell/fire levels.
The soldier in the castle, the knight in later castle levels...
So that's 4 themes, 2 uniques per theme, 1 lower level and 1 higher level...You can even string 3-4 levels of the same thing together and then face the boss of that 'theme' or 'zone' before moving to the next.
Just spit balling here. Good luck Jason.
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Here is a Mockup guys.
(http://i44.tinypic.com/16axn6g.png)
Jo: I like the idea of different areas with different Rats. I am thinking perhaps 4-5 enemies per areas. with some crossover on enemies if it makes sense.
I really dont know about bosses yet. I initially asked Darren about that for their Roguelike Radio. I had a couple ideas but it would require me to have to do premade levels like 100 rogues did. so I am still on the fence.
The main reason I worry about the enemies is just allowing replayability into the game. its such a fast game that I want to make sure people have a reason to continue playing. using 868-HACK as an example after completing the game you can begin playing for a higher and higher score.
so what would keep you coming back for more?
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Well I've thought on this, for a short game I figure that it has to have enough content that it's significantly varied each time. Maybe each time you play you'll see at most 20% of that it has to offer, or each time there are standards but say 1/3 of it is rare.
I tried that a bit with KlingonRL, you won't see the Romulans every time, or the space whales or Federation battleships or a pirate stronghold. They are rare events, but you should hit one of the rare events in EVERY GAME. I do not think I succeeded in making anything worth more than about 2-3 hours of real interest, bt that's the approach I took. Frequent rare events.
If you are hoping for a game that keeps getting played for years, then it's probable that a TON of variety needs to be included. Also if you can somehow track progress from game to game like a high score or deepest dive. Or like Spelunky did you can open warpzones to later levels to speed progression through the easy parts as you gain experience and skill. Some games have 'achievements' which are really just complex scoring mechanics IMO.
I like the idea of Realm of the Mad God and Dungeonmans where you pass something, anything, from game to game. So you are progressing. That's the way to produce addiction, reward play time with fleeting nuggets. In Dungeonmans' case you can put items in a sorta museum, but all items are lost that the player has on them if they die.
Again I'm just spitballing, I don't know the real answer except that VARIETY and a sort of CONTINUITY help people come back for more.
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I think Darren described Binding of issac very well when he described it as being very wide and you get a sliver of game each time. I think that's probably a pretty good idea. I really like the idea of Player progression also, but haven't really thought of a good way to do it. I really liked the feeling of progression in Shiren and I have been thinking about some kind of base or town your hero leaves from. but the game is so tight there is not a lot of maneuver ability for upgrades and items. I have like 10 different heroes and I was thinking of allowing the player to find and rescue other heroes, but they would most likely just be skins. I also will probably allow the player to unlock new enemies to make the game harder as you play.
New build is up also. It has the demon in it now, which they kill me the most as I never pay attention to where they move from. I also shrunk the entire resolution of the game from 11 x 6 to 9 x 5. The 11 x 6 felt like there was a lot of wasted room. the smaller map feels much better, but not quite as crowded as the originals 7x4.
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Speaking of Binding, the more you play the more content gets mixed into the game. So it increases in variety if I remember right.
Binding also makes you unlock characters. I don't like this generally, but it can be useful to promote repeated play. Realm of the Mad God does this too, you have to make it to a certain level with your initial character class to unlock other classes. You should check out how they do it on their wiki, it's pretty cool.
I think every designer should look at Realm of the Mad God, many great ideas in there. Tons.
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Jo: I think its cool that binding has you unlock characters, but they have stats, and starting items to play with, which I do not. I thought about giving each playable character one spell and then creating some way to recharge it. so the ice sorceress gets a freeze spell, the wizard gets a fireball, the knight gets a charge. I don't know how it will feel. I think it might make the game a little to easy, but that's what testing is for.
I also thought about giving each player a spell. but making them tiles. Currently the game is all about position, and I thought about basically adding a "Spell Tile". it works similar to some of the creatures so you can think of a "Freeze Tile" as a unmoving yeti. It sticks with the idea of the placement of yourself and enemies, but also limits it use and it would randomly show up on levels.
I also thought about doing something where a player can "purchase" new heroes. I was going to do the idea of running in to get some magical artifact. well each Artifact would have a monetary value and that would be kept. so as you win you build up this coffer to spend on new heroes. It gives the player some choice, an overarching goal, and a feeling of progression.
I have been looking at binding of Issac also. I think what I might do for quests is give the game a large pool of enemies, areas, traps. and then when a quest is started select an Area and then a slice of enemies and traps for this certain quest. I think that might lead to a lot more variety. I can also build weighted matches if I find good combinations of enemies that work well together to be troublesome.
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You could give each character a different movement/attack pattern. For instance:
- Move range 1, attack range 2
- Attack diagonals, move cardinal
- Move in knight style
- Alternate between diagonal and cardinal each turn
- Move range 1, attack range infinite but only left and right (maybe a wizard chucking fireballs)
- Move 1, but triple movement speed, cannot attack
Terrain effect based on class could work, but might not be as intuitive.
Balance between classes wouldn't need to be an issue.
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I thought about that. But I think different Move and Attack range can be really dangerous and very confusing. I worry a bit about having very specific movement patterns like Knight style or only diagonal, but I have thought about creating characters with different movement patterns. the few ideas I had were.
1. 2 space cardinal movement (Currently whats in)
2. 8 directional movement 1 space.
3. increasing move range, each move an enemy is not killed. (Cleric themed around not killing)
I think as long as I have cardinal movement the levels should all be passable.
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Another update. I added The ninja, Eye, and Snail. bringing the total enemy count to
1. Rat
2. Skeleton
3. Yeti
4. Demon
5. Eye
6. Snail
7. Ninja
and here is a character mockup sheet. Top row are heroes, the rest are all enemies.
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2m6wpw4.png)
I think that's a good starting point to start working on some type of progression. and thinking about different hero's and how they will work, if its simply a sprite change or something more. I am really thinking about giving each character a spell, but going with my idea of "Spell Tiles" where when a player moves to that it sets off their spell. I need add it in as a prototype to see how it feels. this will probably feel similar to my Dungeoneer prototype.
I am still working on making the game feel larger. My current plan is as the player wins new unlocks are added. unlocks will be:
- New Characters
- New Traps
- New Enemies
- Increasing final floor number (game ends at depth 5, but it will increase as you go)
I am also thinking about possible expanding with other dungeons with other possible goals. such as a cave where the player is sent in to kill a certain number of monsters and floor does not matter, only how many monsters you kill. the kills required expanding each time.
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So I am wondering if Floating Eyes, should move around when they are not swapping with the player. they just kind of sit there. Comments?
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It's always worth experimenting, but my gut reaction is that they're better off as is. Right now they can function as a trap, a resource to be exploited, or both, all depending upon context. They aren't unfair, and they're completely predictable, but should always be taken into account. To me that makes them stand out.
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I have been looking for ways to upgrade enemies, as a way of making the game harder. Maybe a second level of the eyes could be large floating be holders or something, and they can move about and swap places. I am also thinking about making it so eyes can attack. It seems odd just to stand next to an eye and have it do nothing.
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So working further on the game. going back and forth on the gameplay. if it should just be endless or it should have a definitive ending. I am feeling like it should have a definite ending, but I think the game is a bit to easy at the moment. Although I might just be really good at it.
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I have been looking for ways to upgrade enemies, as a way of making the game harder. Maybe a second level of the eyes could be large floating be holders or something, and they can move about and swap places. I am also thinking about making it so eyes can attack. It seems odd just to stand next to an eye and have it do nothing.
Try a slow but invincible enemy that forces the player to move forward. Add a ranged attacker of some kind. Add enemies that are extremely difficult to avoid, but who can only hinder the player rather than killing them outright.
Maybe add traps or other dungeon features that the player and monsters can interact with?
So working further on the game. going back and forth on the gameplay. if it should just be endless or it should have a definitive ending. I am feeling like it should have a definite ending, but I think the game is a bit to easy at the moment. Although I might just be really good at it.
If you're torn between the current, possibly too easy ending, and adding a harder ending, why not do both? You could allow the player to keep heading deeper in when they've found the final treasure, or make an optional final dungeon with more floors or nastier enemies. Something like that.
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I have added some code for invincible enemies after adding the Dragon. So more invincible enemies might be a good idea. I want it to make some sense so it would need to be something you can't walk into, like spikes or fire.
I have been thinking about adding more varied enemies now that effect your movement, and are not really dangerous but make it easier for other enemies. One of the original enemies I had were Blobs, killing a blob "Coated" the player in slime and dropped the players movement to only once space.
I currently have Spike traps, and I have mines, but the mines are not really that great and will probably be removed. I want to add a few more Trap types but haven't thought of anything good. I have been thinking about creating a trap that shoots fireballs, which move across the map. I am also thinking about making an enemy that fires a laser or something in the cardinal directions each turn alternating the direction each turn. I want traps that are visible and set off at certain intervals.
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I currently have Spike traps, and I have mines, but the mines are not really that great and will probably be removed. I want to add a few more Trap types but haven't thought of anything good. I have been thinking about creating a trap that shoots fireballs, which move across the map. I am also thinking about making an enemy that fires a laser or something in the cardinal directions each turn alternating the direction each turn. I want traps that are visible and set off at certain intervals.
Perhaps you could have visible trigger tiles that, when stepped on, trigger other traps on the map? So you could trigger traps that others or standing on or be killed because someone wandered on the trigger while you were standing on a trapdoor. All the parts would be visible so the only surprises would be based on how others move; which is sort of under the players influence.
My little roguelike Pugnacious Wizards (browser version at http://trystans.blogspot.com/2013/08/pugnacious-wizards-2-version-07.html) has several visible traps. There's arrow towers that shoot in all 8 directions every turn, rotating 4-way towers that shoot in the cardinal directions one turn then diagonals the next, rotating 2-way towers that are similar, rooms with one of several patterns of floor spikes that are visible when triggered, rooms where one of the 4 walls shoots arrows across the room every 3rd turn, rooms that have moving blocks that will squish anything in their way, and visible floor traps that freeze, poison, or light on fire anything nearby when stepped on. There's also fire, ice, and poison versions of most of the traps. Plus the "traps" of unintended consequences - like using a fire spell when surrounded by flammable grass and trees. As well as a few spells that place traps - but I guess that wouldn't really fit the theme of Microgue.
There's also the 2013 7DRL Dungeon Themed Starvation Simulator (exe and python version at http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=3130.0) that had some interesting traps I haven't seen in roguelikes before.
And the previous 2012 7DRL TrapRL (python version at http://codingden.net/traprl/) also had some novel traps.
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I was going to mention a fireball trap, but in Turnament they came with their own issues.
Because they move and you move, you either have to insist that they kill if you enter their tile and if they move into your tile (like moving spikes in Bump!) or; you kill the player only when they walk towards the fireball and when it moves into their tile.
I went with the latter in Turnament, which made for good puzzles and the behaviour makes sense when you think about it, but players struggled with learning the concept.
In Microgue however you have the added problem of moving two tiles.
We thought of an axe swinging round on a pillar as a trap in Turnament, it would hit you it it swung into you or you moved into it. We also thought of splitting enemies - which would create some interesting problems in Microgue.
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Fireballs would probably be invincible. Meaning you won't be able to move into their spots, currently with the dragon the tiles treat them as a wall, not even giving you a tile to walk into. They would essential act like a one direction rat. I might make the fireball have a face, meaning the player would probably recognize them moving the same as other enemies. I also want to add flying enemies, that will be above the traps. Meaning spikes won't harm them. But I am not sure how well that will read.
The idea with the trigger is pretty good. I also thought of something that has really complicated some of the levels. I am still playing around with the idea of placement and positioning. I was thinking about possible adding a Rune tile where you need to kill an enemy on that tile.Meaningthe player needs to worry about notjust killing the enemy but also movingthem into position. I have been playing with it while ctesting, picking a tile when I start a floor and trying to kill an enemy on that specific tile. It's been a lot of fun. Not sure what I can do with it in game play yet. If I could maybe even use it as some sort of lock mechanism. Meaning you would need to kill an enemy to progress any further. This is of course late game stuff. I thought it might be good for different paths or maybe even opening a shortcut that skips you ahead a few floors. Or opens a set of stairs right there.
The trigger idea could be fun and I could maybe even recode the enemies to aim for triggers if you are on a trap tile. I also like the idea of the crushers. They have been very cool in ending, but not sure how well they would work here. I also forgot about one of the best traps in shiren that of the trapdoor. I think I will add that next. It will drop the player down a floor instead of killing them.
Also I have written out the "story" or framing device. Basically an evil wizard has stolen some random artifact from the queen and you must get it back. The artifact will stay the same until you rescue it, but each time you die you will be spawned as a new character ( sprite and name) and sent in to get the item. Not sure if i will track how many heroes it takes to get an artifact back. it might be nice to track but not sure if it would be an exciting stat, or if I could use it in game somehow. the story is close to the original framing device I used but this one feels a little more fleshed out, it will also allow me to create a decent villain for the player to focus on. And makes better sense as his defenses get stronger as you continue to thwart his plans. It also gives me a way to tell the player of upgrades. You head into the dungeon and the evil wizard says " ha ha, I just bought a ton of giant snails." And now levels have big menacing snails ( as menacing as snails ca be) in them.
As for new enemies I added the golem today, which replaces the rat as an upgrade. On death it crumbles to dust, but will rise again in a few turns time and liches are in now. They are buggers summoning skeletons randomly. Best to take them out ASAP before they flood the map. Also added giant eyes which wonder the map if they can not swap with you. They upgrade the regular eyes.
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working on the message system that will frame all the info for the player. Currently when you die the evil lord gives a message. On retrieving the Artifact another message pop ups, and when starting a dungeon if something new has been added a message will pop up there.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/f2si2p.png)
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Nice to see Microgue get some lovin' again. The current build is quite enjoyable. An idea for the skeleton, maybe a higher level version of the same, might be one that doesn't move adjacent to you, but rather retreats than puts itself in "check". A few nitpicks: I don't really love the "bouncing" effect when you get a message, it's just slightly too comic-y for me, or something. And maybe you should have a woman's name for the female avatars. (Desdemona?) Keep up the good work!
As always,
Minotauros
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Fun fact: If you get a golem to die in a spike trap, it will reanimate just in time to get spiked again, and again, and again. Finally my turn to laugh.
As always,
Minotauros
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Yeah the Desmond is actually written in the UI. I have not started randomly generating characters yet. That will come later.
All the AI is really simple, so Creating something that looks to get you in check might be a good idea. Actually the skeleton currently updates to the Lich which summons Skeletons. Its very annoying and can be a bit hard to deal with.
Yeah the bounce is a bit odd. I just put it in but it does feel a little goofy. I might fix the tween to just an ease.
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Spent the morning adding a new trap called the lock. It was a lock and the player needed to kill an enemy on it to unlock the up stairs. while being a cool idea. It was incredibly hard to accomplish. so a wasted morning. >:( well Back to working on the message and unlock system.
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Spent the morning adding a new trap called the lock. It was a lock and the player needed to kill an enemy on it to unlock the up stairs. while being a cool idea. It was incredibly hard to accomplish. so a wasted morning. >:( well Back to working on the message and unlock system.
Rather than unlocking the stairs, perhaps you could repurpose them as sacrificial altars. If you kill something on it, that works as a sacrifice to the goddess Microgia and you get something in return - perhaps (depending on how hard it is to do) it could act as a smart bomb and clear the current floor of monsters or something.
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I like that idea. Especially since the current art for it is a big skull tile, that turns red when activated. Not sure what the player could get though. Its a pretty simple game with not a lot of lee-way.
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So here is a question. Currently rooms are prebuilt by me then randomly selected. Would it be better if I prebuilt the rooms with set traps. I think that would give me more control over making traps a bit more interesting.
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Both options have merit. The random generator probably isn't capable of creating the kinds of situations you could come up with, but hand-made levels also make the game more of a memorizer instead of a pure test of tactical analysis.
If you're willing to put in the extra work, you could always do both.
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Well right now all the levels are hand built, and the only thing that would be pre-placed are the traps, so Monsters would still be random. Most likely what I will do is build a Room, then create multiple trap layouts for that room.
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Added in the new Trap I wanted. Its a large block that is Up for three turns and then down for three turns. Its basically Wall,Wall,Wall, Space,Space,Space.
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You get crushed if you stand on it as it rises, right?
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Of course!
I also added in a wolf. It takes two turns for each one of yours. It can be pretty cruel. Also thinking about adding a second tier dragon, that will always move toward the player and will just steamroll any monsters in its way.
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More work more work.
Actually thinking about trying something different with the unlocks. As I currently have it designed each time you win the game changes subtly. I can actually use that system to just set all monsters and traps. So I could in theory give the player a couple "quests" and have the game be completely different. So this time could be in the woods with rats and wolves, next time it's in a tomb with skeletons and liches. Next time it's dragons and demons.
Might be something to consider and solves the problem of to much stuff being thrown at the player at one time.
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Mostly redoing a lot of the enemy code, to make it a bit easier to create enemies. I also had a code error that created a new trap. I had a mistake where an enemy stood in place until you got next to them, then they attacked. I played like this for a few rounds and decided to keep it. So "Statues" are going to be another trap added to the game.
I am going to be redoing the level creation the rest of this week, then hopefully I can get some people beta testing and trying out the difficulty curve I have coded in. then I can start adding polish. Also game works really well on my iPad. The controls are really good, and the sprites don't look as large and abstract as they did with the first version I made with the tiny levels.
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Redid the level creation system. I hope to have a new build up this weekend. And then getting some testers to really try it out. I really need to flesh out the difficulty curve.
Added slimes in. The player can only move one square after killing them. And here is an enemy and trap list
Traps:
Spikes
Walls
Statues
Monsters:
Rats
Skeletons
Eyes
Demons
Yetis
Ninjas
Giant eyes
Wolves
Dragons
Liches
Snails
Slimes
Golems.
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So big update to the game. A started doing the unlocks. if you want you can hit clear to erase all data and then refresh to start from the beginning. Each time you retrieve the Artifact a small change is made. Now I can start working on the difficulty curve and also the whole presentation. I will also be keeping track of how many hero it takes to retrieve an artifact. So you will be able to see how many times you dies trying to get to the next level of unlocks. if someone wants me to post the full list of unlocks in order let me know. I am moving them all around trying to get a nice gradual curve.
There are a lot of bugs still. and a few enemies that still need to be added because they dont really work at the moment. and sometimes traps are invisible. I think that's an engine thing, but I am looking into it.
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Found the bug about the invisible trap. Its something to do with the engine and not my code. The fix is suppose to be in this week, so we will see.
I swapped the Evil lord sprite for a actual face portrait. So that should be in now. drawing out artifacts now. I am thinking about writing a small story for each artifact. describing what it is, because why not.
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working on the title page
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2gxjx8g.png)
the clouds may be animated.
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Nice title screen!
At the moment it feels slightly unbalanced, since everything of interest is in the top half of the screen, but I'm guessing that you'll be filling the dark space with a menu of some kind which will probably counteract that.
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yeah there will be a three big buttons on the bottom, Treasure, Options, and Adventure.
working on the after win now currently there is a treasure chest. I was thinking of doing artifacts for each level, but that would require me to draw like 20 different artifacts, but it would be cool because I could show how many heroes died to get this treasure. SO the player will know that they died 20 times between this treasure and this treasure
So that got me thinking about maybe doing just treasure. Open up the treasure chest and BLAM!!! money. So when the player clicks treasure it will just show them a gold pile that will get increasingly larger as they go. They wont know how many heroes died on eich unlock tier though. I could also make the money be an actual value. Like as a player goes through maybe the faster they do the more money they will get, but I think that is going more towards score and I dont know if fastest way through is the best way to do score.
I was also given the idea of instead of treasures doing "evil lords" their portraits would be easier to draw. and the player kills a new one each time, which explains them strengthening their defenses.
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Hey guys. I was just wondering. How important do you think it is to know the actual turn order. Or at least be able to have a good idea of the turn order in Microgue. I need some input.
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I think it would be nice if the turn order were fixed, with each monster type moving in a set order (for example, if the eyes always swapped first or last). But I don't think that the order needs to be explicit or documented--let it be a bit of knowledge that experienced players can exploit.
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Was that really obvious? Because I kept trying to think of an idea on logic sorting and my wife suggested the same thing I don't know how I missed it. I am going to implement that today. Also if anyone would like to test the game out I have a brand new build with a lot more stuff. I just need the ending system. On the fence between treasures or boss battles to end the game.
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By the way, I'm very happy to see that you're picking up Microgue again. To reply to some of the other concerns you've raised in this thread (I have been playing the build(s) posted at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21825227/Prototypes/Microgue_Newest.swf for the last few days):
Difficulty
Obviously, perceived difficulty varies for different people. My perception is that the game is too easy for too long at the beginning. To get to a point where the game is interesting, I have to play at a pretty low level for a long while. Even up to the dragon stage, where I am now (haven't reset my data for new builds, since it isn't obvious when a new build appears), things don't really get interesting until about level 4 (of 7). It would be nice to have a different way of handling difficulty so that players who are doing well don't have to play so many rounds that don't challenge them.
Gauging difficulty
It seems as though the main heuristic you are using for difficulty is the single enemy taken in isolation, with perhaps the number of enemies being a secondary factor. You might consider whether combinations of enemies might be a more useful heuristic; i.e., are some combinations of enemies more difficult than others? There is also an issue regarding rooms: some enemies are much less capable in a room where there are passages of only 1 tile in width. I'm thinking especially of skeletons and demons, which can't even do their diagonal move in such a situation.
Unfair difficulty
I have played many, many games over the last few days, and only encountered one situation where the room setup was such that I could not have survived. So I think this is not something I would worry too much about, at least up to the level of difficulty that I have reached.
However, I do think that there is a problem with unfairness that comes in with all of the timed effects--the demon moving differently every other turn, the Yeti power, the two types of floor traps. These require memorization, which isn't a skill that I'm particularly interested in exercising when I play a game, and currently a heft percentage of my deaths are coming from not having memorized the state of one of the timed things. Please consider having some kind of indication on each of these timed effects that the trap will trip, the freeze will run out, or the direction the demon will go after the player's next move: maybe the demon's eyes flash red before he goes diagonally, the tips of the spikes show in the spike traps, the color palette for frozen enemies shifts to a lighter blue, etc.
Should the game have an ending?
My first impulse is to answer that it should not. There is only one factor that makes me say otherwise, and that is the fact that the upper difficulty level would be defined by simply unfair setups. That is, if monster numbers and difficulty are increased algorithmically, you will eventually reach a point where most or even all setups are impossible to win. That's a recipe for frustration, and a clear endpoint that comes just before impossibility sets in probably makes sense. The problem is that, if I win and then play again, I really don't want to start at the boring lowest difficulty.
Specific enemies
- I miss enemies that move two tiles. Are they coming back?
- What about slimes? Miss them too! If these two types of enemies don't appear until later (beyond the dragon), I think they should probably appear earlier.
- I haven't faced the dragon many times, but he seems pretty wimpy. Why does he mostly run away from me?
- The Yeti freeze lasts too long. Maybe decrease the duration by 1 turn? Currently, the level size is such that, by the time you have killed a Yeti, you have basically beat the room because you can just waltz right out while everybody is frozen.
- Maybe some enemies should be immune to the Yeti freeze? The dragon immediately comes to mind, since he is--I think--invulnerable?
- Floating eyes logically shouldn't be killed by the opening pit traps.
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So its been a long time since I updated that original build. (Testing in Stage3D which doesn't work as a regular swf and needs a HTML wrapper.) I just updated it to the newest build. Take a look at it because some of the changes you mentioned are already in. but I will go through your comments.
Difficulty: the comment of "to easy" has been brought up a bit ( I am at the point where I dont know if its easy becasue its easy or because I made it). I have done a full mix up of the enemy unlocks with some of the beta testers so the difficulty seems a bit better now. I suggest clearing your data by hitting 1 on the keyboard and starting over to see the new unlock order. what do you think could be done to make 1-7 all interesting?
Gauging difficulty: I don't really know how I would increase the combination of enemies and use that as a difficulty setting. I mean I understand that some enemies work well together sometimes, but I don't know how I would translate that into a difficulty curve as it seems very dependent on level and placement. I think its a really good idea, I just don't know how to go about that whole thingy, open to suggestions. I do need to redo some of the levels to give them a more open layout.
Unfair difficulty: I always thought of the game being about memorizing, but it is more about interrupting the rules laid out by all the enemies. the idea of a small note for the player could be a good idea. Similar to how st33d did Turnament. but It would need to be something that the player can notice, but isn't like a large neon sign. I just added in the small tip on the spikes to show they will strike next.
Should the game have an ending? I am thinking about some type of ending, but then perhaps unlocking some sort of other mode. maybe just a really hard like 20 level dungeon. I also think that you can do something similar to people playing Spelunky, where players will play to get their "Win percentage" higher.
Specific enemies:
- the arctic wolf is currently in the game. It takes two turns for each players one, although it is fairly broken and needs a full code rewrite
- Slimes are added in now. they should appear after about 7 wins. I am also going to add a Spider. which will put down webs, that are basically like unmoving slimes. limiting the player if they walk into them. They will last for about 3 turns.
- the dragon may just not have any other moves, and that's why he is moving away.
- yeti freeze has been dropped from 3 turns to 2
- that is extremely easy to do. I didn't want the dragon to be all powerful, but I can add it in to a build for later.
- the opening pit traps are going to be replaced by the moving walls, the trap doors looked cool, but they raised many problems like why eyes couldn't see through them, which was one of their main designs I liked. the main problem on the moving walls, is some good art. that reads well. also some people asked why the raising walls killed the enemies so I will need a "Idea" to show that.
- Also not sure if this was mentioned yet, but clicking and holding on an enemy will bring up a description.
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Thanks for cluing me in to the update. I see you have a note asking about whether there is a way to use Tumblr to host .swf files. Is there somewhere else that the latest version is always posted?
I've now reset the difficulty and played to the point where there are six levels in the dungeon. I still think it's too easy up to this point, but a game that started with the sort of difficulty that you see in the last three or so rooms of the six-floor dungeon might be about right. What about having a tutorial dungeon of 5 floors that's about the same difficulty as your current first stage dungeon? After beating that, new players should be ready for something a bit tougher. Players who are used to roguelikes & tactical movement games could pretty easily skip the tutorial and get right in w/something more challenging. (All this assumes you're looking for the widest player base possible.) And another mode that's unlocked by getting to the end of the staged dungeons sounds like a good idea.
I think the warning for the spike traps works really well. Especially for a mobile game--which you often have to put aside for 30 seconds to do something else--memorization seems like a cheap way to increase difficulty, and certainly Microgue can be difficult enough without it. Hope you roll out such subtle cues for all delayed timers, from moving walls to giant slugs.
As far as treating difficulty as the product of combinations of enemies (and possibly rooms), the best way to do that is probably by running simulations and capturing statistics on the win-loss ratio for different combinations. The only real reason to do that in a hobbyist project, though, is if it's something that you enjoy doing (never done that sort of thing myself)!
Some thoughts on enemies:
- One on one, giant slugs currently are like easier rats (or they will be if you give some kind of subtle visual cue the turn before they move). But that isn't bad, because as part of a mix of other enemies, slugs change the rhythm and give the player new patterns to deal with--whether to work around or exploit. One way to make slugs more difficult might be to have them leave behind slime that slows the player down (maybe up to 2 tiles of slime could be onscreen at a time per slug)--wait, I guess you're already planning that with the spider!
- I haven't encountered the arctic wolf yet, but it sounds like his moving twice for each move of the player means that he can actually follow you around a corner in a single turn (e.g., move west and then south in a single turn). For the sake of the sort of rhythmic patterns I mentioned for the giant slug, it might also be good to have something like the old orc/goblin which could move up to two tiles in a single direction.
Am just trying Turnament for the first time...
EDIT: I wanted to say that the change to allowing enemies to attack you on the exit stairs seems like a good one. It makes the last 1/3 of many floors matter more than it did. (Yeti still makes it easier to end the level, but it's definitely improved with a freeze of 2 turns. Maybe the Yeti should be a little more difficult over all?)
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Its a separate link but its using Stage3D, and the graphics are extremely broken.
so as you go up the tower the floors have different A. Monster Counts, and B. Monster rarities. So I just need to take the 4th floor and set that as the starting difficulty. That should be easy to do. I am also thinking of doing a tutorial dungeon to just teach the basic mechanics.
the stepping away from a mobile game is an excellent point, that i had not even taken into account. I am going to have the snails eyes closed when it wont move, but i am trying to figure out some thing for the demons. thought about changing the eye color, but not sure if that would work.
as for the treating difficulty, that all seems beyond my feeble scope. and I automatically thought of a dude in like 50s era nasa suit getting a a stack of read outs from a computer bank.
-so I always wanted to make the snails stronger. they are extremely slow, what if because of their shells I make them unkillable by moving into them, same as a dragon. that might increase their difficulty a bit.
- I am also thinking that the yeti needs to be tougher, especially because they are so big, I could have them do the original goblin thing of moving two spaces in a direction, but I wonder if that might be better for a more abundant monster.
- the wolves can turn corners. (although they are really broken at the moment, Need to completely redo their AI)
- I am also thinking of possibly doing "Special floors" a couple examples are:
1. Dragon Floor. I would really beef up the dragon. It would stay unkillable, and would probably move in all 8 directions. but basically the dragon would be asleep. each turn a countdown would go off above his head, so the player would get like 8 turns to get to the end before the dragon awakes.
2. Locked room. The stairs would be hidden with a large skull symbol where they should be. the skull would have a number on it and each time a monster is killed that number would tick down. meaning the player would need to kill like 2/3rds of the floor to move on.
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I like the idea of special rooms, especially if they are primarily used as treasure chambers (i.e., the final room where the artifact is located).
I've now played to the stage that introduces liches and ninjas, the progression is definitely better than in that earlier build I was playing. Still could use some tweaks though! Some more thoughts on enemies and difficulties:
- Witches bring more interest than they do difficulty, since the randomness of their ability can as help you as often as it hurts. I'm not sure that they deserve their own stage, because the difficulty level kind of stays static or even backs off a little. I think you could stick witches in earlier, in low numbers, w/o making them the primary "star" of their stage.
- Slimes don't necessarily bring much difficulty either at present. Maybe it would be best to introduce them in a stage where there's also an enemy that moves quickly, so that the player's mobility is more at risk? Or else introduce them in the stage immediately previous to such an enemy, so that the player has a chance to see what they do before things get rough? (They needn't be the "star" of a stage either. (Ninjas seem more deserving of that--they currently are not the star of their stage.)
- Liches don't summon skeletons often enough, I don't think (needs a graphic cue the turn before summoning). They should also move around a bit more, maybe? Also, they could look a bit more horrifying. Maybe if the face was lost in blackness?
- I agree that a two-step monster might be better for something less rare than the yeti. A couple of ideas for the yeti: Maybe it can move in all 8 directions. Or leave a trail of ice behind it (max of 2 or 3 tiles before melting). Anyone stepping on one of these tiles slides to the end of the ice, a la Relic Rush. (Or that ice thing could be a trap, too.)
- I think an invulnerable snail could be good, probably with minor tweaks to initial appearance and rarity.
- How about a patroller style enemy that always goes back and forth along the same file? If need be, these could be set up like traps (or just be traps). You could have two variants: one that goes step by step, the other that moves the full distance back and forth every turn, killing the player if he steps in the way at the wrong time.
- How about an enemy that can't be killed by jumping on it but *can* be knocked backward one space (the player doesn't move when knocking)? The trick would be to knock it into a trap or moving wall to kill it; otherwise it would be invulnerable. Maybe that's too different from everything else?
- Giant toads (or however you want to reskin) might be fun. The toad would hop two tiles where possible, and the player would need to try to be sure that he would be on the tile hopped over. In other words, the toad would always kill from two tiles away unless the player is directly against a wall. If the toad is directly next to the player, he will just hop to the other side of the player if not killed immediately.
- A super-evil enemy might be one that moves all other enemies one step toward the player. (Dungeonmaster or something).
Not all of those ideas for new enemies are necessarily going to be useful, and of course I still haven't seen all of the content in the current version of Microgue. But I thought it'd be better to get them out there than forget about them...
And a couple of notes for the monster info that you get on touch and hold:
- The wrong portraits are often displayed.
- Notes (or a graphic) about how the enemy moves would be great, because the first time you encounter them you have no idea what's safe. For example, the ninja should communicate that he moves in a knight's move.
- Witches don't have info at all, they display as yeti or ninja.
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A couple more notes about gameplay:
The ninja is the closest thing I've seen yet to a magic bullet for the gameplay. Interest and challenge go up quite a bit on most floors where there is a ninja.
Two liches is also a fun, challenging combination. With two liches on screen, I'm not sure whether they should move around more or not. I also don't understand the rules they follow when summoning at all.
The first 3 floors or so are still less interesting than 4-7. That may say something about the formulae for determining difficulty. That is, maybe easier floors may have fewer but individually harder enemies (so they're not just freebies), while later floors have more enemies, with an increasingly difficult composition as you go along...?
I feel like there is one main gameplay problem that probably won't be solved with relatively simple balancing-out (It's possible that you won't even see this as a problem.) It doesn't affect every floor in my playthroughs, but it does affect most: the rightmost third of the level is usually not nearly as interesting as the lefthand third to half. This is because most of the enemies follow you toward the left, and all the maneuvering you do early on allow you to make a break for it later, leaving behind the enemies that started on the right. The idea about patrollers in the previous post was intended to help with that. Another idea (something of a band-aid) would be that some monsters on a floor might be tasked with defending the exit, and refuse to stray more 2 or 3 tiles from it.
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No update as it's pretty broken at the moment.
Working on making the game a bit grader. Trying to make level one feel like level three.
I added a new starter enemy. It's a small flame guy called a cynder. They move like the rats, but with two differences. They are immune to the yetis freeze attack and if a cynder is next to another cynder they will combine into a new monster called an infernus. The infernus will move like the old goblins did. Going two spots at a time in the cardinal directions. Later levels will also have infernus on them. I may make it possible for infernus to become a bigger enemy not sure yet. If I do they will basically be like rooks.
Yetis now move in all 8 directions. It's much better.
Laying the groundwork for special rooms. I might also do rooms with just themes. Like a bunch of yetis, or fire guys. I also want to make a demon room with sigils just popping out demons.
I am working on the right side emptiness problem. Trying to think of some different solutions.
Not sure about adding multiple enemies at once. It shouldn't be to different if the guy is just like hey now I got witches and slimes though.
I might also add some enemies that cause problems on death. Like an enemy that shoots out fire around it. Or explodes so you have to be careful when it's on traps. I am also thinking about adding a trap in that shoots fire in cardinal directions and it rotates. ( some enemies will be fireproof, immune to fire traps and freezing)
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All sounds good, like the sound of the infernus!
Having played quite a bit more, I think that the levels 1-3 actually do sometimes produce interesting play, and other times no. The main issue seems to be the monster makeup of the floor. Even at the 7-level stage, it's sometimes possible to have those levels be mostly populated by rats and snails. In that case, it's not very exciting. (Though, with the traps, those might make good levels for lower difficulty stages.) Floor 1 of the 8-level stage can be pretty tough!
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yeah, Monster generation is super basic and pretty random. Let me explain how I do it.
Monster Generation.
As the game goes on the list of available monsters grows. So at the beginning the monster looks like this:
["Rat", "Skeleton" Eye"]
so then it looks at each one and then checks the rarity value for each floor. so for the rat the 8 floors look like this:
[ 3, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, 0]
so the game takes the current floor and then sees how many are listed for the rat. So for the Rat the first floor get 3 into the monster bag. so by the time its done the monster bag looks like this.
["Rat", "Rat", "Rat", "Skeleton", "Skeleton", "Eye"]
then the game just randomly pulls 4 monsters out of the bag.
Its not the most elegant solution but its effective. The one problem is that it can be pretty unpredictable. I am open to suggestions on what might be a better way to do this as I am going to be adding the special floors which would be better weighted to certain enemies.
Also some people have asked for an endless mode, which my current system does not support because of the floor rarity.
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So I have been reading through a bunch of Tabletop RPG books about their Random Encounter tables (Their logic works well for me). they have a good idea of basically having a table from 1 to 100 of monsters so 1 - 20 might be rats, 20 - 30 might be skeletons. and then ifwant tougher encounters you jsut add a modifier to what you roll. so I might be able to do something like that. as I fill my monster bag its filled in order of easy to difficult. I can then just add modifiers to push the selection towards the end of the array as opposed to the beginning. It will take some testing, but might work.
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What if you took your current monster bag system and added another dimension? If you gave each monster type a numerical difficulty rating, and each floor a minimum difficulty target, you could then test to be sure that the combination of monsters is hard enough by adding up all of the numbers in the monster bag. If they aren't hard enough, you dump the bag and try again. For example, given the following ratings (pulled out of the air, obviously):
| Rat | 1 |
| Snail | 2 |
| Slime | 3 |
| Eye | 4 |
| Giant Eye | 5 |
A monster bag of {Rat, Rat, Rat, Snail} would have a difficulty of 1 + 1 + 1 + 2 = 5. If the minimum difficulty for the floor were 8, you'd throw the bag away and try again until you got a total of 8 or greater. Alternatively, you could pick a new monster and replace the easiest enemy in bag with it until you're above 8, or any number of other schemes for adding/swapping enemies. This system could also employ a difficulty ceiling if needed to ensure that a floor isn't too hard.
For special rooms and alternative play modes, you might want to consider just having multiple tables that could be looked at depending on the game mode and/or room type.
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That's a really good idea. I was doing something similar, but in reverse I was trying to take a value and purchase guys to meet it. Randomizing it and giving a minimum value will probably work great. I will try getting that system in tomorrow.
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Yeah, I was trying to think of how to do something exactly what you were trying to do--purchasing monsters based on a fund of difficulty points--but this other method seems like a nice simplification of that.
Quick question: Over and over again, I see the Summoners do this awesome move where they slide into a position where they are protected by one or more of their skeleton creations. They do this so regularly that I assume they must be programmed to do that whenever the opportunity is available. Is that correct, or is it just repeated serendipity? I really like it from a gameplay perspective.
A couple of thoughts on other issues that you raised early in the thread. I'm not sure if you've moved beyond these or not, but just in case:
Hero abilities
Personally, I don't think the game needs these. The minimalism of it being purely about positioning and dealing with enemy movement is pretty appealing to me. But if you do want to do them, I would suggest that they be hail-marys, meaning that the power is only available maybe once per stage (I'm using "stage" to mean a full sequence of floors). This would make the decision to use the skill an agonizing and difficult one (Is this really the best place I can use this? Should I wait?!). It could have a salutary function in that it would enable a player to escape from the rare impossible situation that might crop up, where the random set up of the floor gives the player no possibility to win. I still feel that impossible situations are pretty rare (I've encountered only one clearly impossible situation after many, many games).
Scoring
I like the win percentage as a way of tracking overall skill (due to the randomness, it seems like averaging skill over many games is probably the best approach). However, I wonder if a skill rating based on the win percentage might make sense? For example, a rating that was calculated by multiplying the win percentage by the highest stage number completed (again, I'm using "stage" to mean a full sequence of floors), would also encapsulate how well I've done. If I have a win percentage of 15% and I've only completed the second stage, my rating would be 30. But if I've completed the seventh stage with a win rate of 15%, my rating would be 105. There may be better ways to do this than simple multiplication, which does create much wider ranges at higher levels (the range of possible ratings at stage 7 would be 7 to 700), but I just wanted to get the thought out there.
The old scoring systems that were based on gameplay elegance (i.e. better scores for getting through a floor with fewer moves) could also still be made to work, I think. The main thing is that they should somehow be spread out over multiple games and also take into account the overall difficulty. (Once there are fewer wide swings in difficulty per stage-floor, scoring swings will be less important anyway.) A sparkline (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparkline) might be a nice way to visualize the score over many games, though I'm not sure whether the resolution of the game would allow for a sparkline (which needs to be high-res) to be displayed alongside the low-res graphics.
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Where can I play this? It looks fun :D
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updated the build with a new version. bunch of changes such as
- New small fire enemies, that merge into large fire enemies
- New lich summon animations
- new torches
- new yeti movement
- snails are unkillable.
PerspectivDesigns: currently its at a dropbox link you can check out here (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21825227/Prototypes/Microgue_Newest.swf), but eventually that will be going down and I will be putting it somewhere on the web (as well as iOS, Android, and jsut a straight EXE download). download).
Erik Temple:
I implemented the points check system and its working okay at the moment. Its going to take some balancing until it is better, the mechanics work perfectly, the numbers need to be fine tuned is all.
I will probably not to hero abilities, and if I did they would only be a one time per run use. and the scoring is still pretty up in the air. I might unlock a secondary mode, when the game is completed that has score, so I keep the difficulty build up out of the calculations.
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I like the new timer indicators (demon's arms, slug's eyes, etc.)--they are subtle, but very helpful. They make it much harder to die in a way that feels unfair. The animation for summoning a skeleton is also really sweet, and the treasure pages add a new, fun dimension to things.
I think that you said that the issue with the current trap door is that it should work on the flying eye as well, and therefore a floor that slams up to the ceiling would make more sense. But this is very difficult to draw in a way that reads well, especially at this resolution. So here's an alternative idea: What about a trap door that opens onto a swirling vortex beneath that could suck down even a flying creature? The flag that the trap is about to spring could be the door opening a crack to reveal a tiny bit of the vortex beneath (it could have a bright color, like green or purple, so it's obvious even with a small crack that there is something nasty below).
I agree that score makes more sense with an endless mode. Most simply, the score could just be the number of floors you complete before dying. An interesting thing that I'm noticing about difficulty in Microgue is that, as things get harder, you have to become more aggressive to survive--going after enemies rather than avoiding them becomes the only way to complete a floor. Not that you have to kill all of them, but it often makes sense to take out maybe 80-90%.
I've reached something like my (current) ideal stage of difficulty now, I think, and the game is quite fun. I'd better reset the game, though, to see how the new point-check system is working...
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Weird bug: Went up the stairs, and the level reset, but my hero didn't move back to the left. He stayed where the stairs had been and was immediately killed by a monster (they moved before I did).
EDIT: Also, I've been seeing quite a few skeletons trapped in a corner, i.e. they were initially placed in a corner tile where the only available diagonal move is blocked by a wall. It might be worth testing each monster placement to be sure that 1) the monster has a move, and 2) the player can't kill it immediately on the first move. The second one may not be as important, but it kind of sucks for the level when you can kill a ninja on your first move w/o consequences.
One more thing that may be a bug: When you kill a frozen slime, it doesn't prevent you from moving two squares, but it does show you trapped in slime.
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yeah I am pretty happy with the skeleton summon anim. I am going to be trying to do stuff like that on all the effect anims.
- I have some things with the monster placement Orange Eyes should not be placed next to each other, and skeletons should not be placed in corners. but I haven figured out a good way to program something to check that.
- The slime is a bug, but I have no idea what causes it so I need to figure that out.
- The main problem with the trap door now is I want something that blocks sights of the eye. which is why I think I need something that is up into the Air. the biggest problem now is creating a down position for it. I have been testing a bunch of different stuff. see when its down it needs to take up most of the square, but when up it can only take up about half the square, because I need to show front and side. so its a balancing act.
- the CR system is a little broken because it doesn't take the floor difficulty into account. I need add that in.
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so i figured out a way to do the walls. I remembered the zelda game for the gameboy (Links Awakening) had a great mechanic of blocks going up and down. so I tried doing sprites similar to that and it works great. the only problem at the minute is trying to figure out a way to show that the wall is about to change. i was thinking maybe putting a run on it or something that lights up. any ideas?
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Sound cue? blinking? A little shudder before it starts was very common in old games. A regular pattern might be enough really.
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I'm not sure exactly what you came up with for the moving wall, but could you do the warning by showing the floor panel moved up by maybe 1 or 2 pixels, i.e. that the floor has just begun to move? Another idea might be to have a sigil of some sort on the tile that would change color.
I've been playing the new version from the beginning. It does feel like it's more consistent in terms of difficulty, but the early levels still seem pretty easy. I'm going to start over again and keep track of my responses floor-by-floor to see if I can give better feedback.
Regarding testing whether an enemy can move based on its initial placement: I'm not sure how your code is organized, of course, but if each enemy type has a method for testing whether it can move, could you just call that method for each enemy after the initial placement to see if it needs to be re-placed?
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OK, I ran through and recorded all of the enemies that I encountered, as well as how I did. It's below (each death is shown with a phrase wrapped in **). Primary takeaway: the game still feels like it develops too slowly in difficulty; as you can see, it doesn't really start to get hard for me until stage 9 or 10. It might be good to get some novices to keep track of their deaths this way.
A couple of other notes:
- Eyes should maybe be classified as just as powerful as giant eyes (or very close), and should continue to appear alongside giant eyes, not be immediately replaced by them. This is because their lack of movement creates a fixed point that the player has to contend with. He has to approach an eye in a certain way to be able to deal with it.
- When they have a choice of moving left or right of the player, skeletons (and other enemies) tend to move to the left. It would be better if they tended to move right (i.e., between the player and the goal). When they move to the left, they are too easy to outrun.
- Flames really aren't dangerous unless they get to form infernus. Maybe they should get the same difficulty number as rats (assuming they don't already).
- Consider whether yetis should grant freeze power if the player doesn't kill them. I.e., if a yeti dies in a trap, maybe it doesn't freeze anything?
- Slimes are probably overrated in difficulty (not sure what its actual rating is). They become tougher when combined with statues and yetis (other things too, but especially those). Maybe they don't need their own stage? Just add them in as part of stage 8? There is not really much of a difficulty increase at all from level 6 to level 8.
Bug: If the hero is teleported while he is slimed, the graphic of the slime patch remains on the tile he teleported from.
1.0 Game Begins
1.1 rat, rat, flame, skeleton
1.2 rat, flame, skeleton, skeleton
1.3 rat, rat, flame, skeleton, eye
1.4 rat, rat, skeleton, skeleton, skeleton, eye (trapped skeleton)
2.0 Spikes
2.1 rat, rat, skeleton, flame
2.2 rat, flame, flame, skeleton (infernus)
2.3 rat, rat, flame, flame, skeleton
**Stupid death!**
2.1 rat, rat, rat, skeleton
2.2 rat, rat, flame, eye
2.3 rat, flame, flame, skeleton, eye
2.4 rat, flame, skeleton, skeleton, skeleton, eye
3.0 Giant Snails
3.1 rat, rat, rat, flame
3.2 rat, skeleton, snail, snail
3.3 rat, rat, rat, flame, snail
3.4 rat, flame, skeleton, snail
4.0 Climb Higher
4.1 rat, flame, eye, snail
**Got trapped, own fault**
4.1 rat, rat, eye, snail
4.2 rat, flame, skeleton, eye
4.3 rat, flame, flame, skeleton, snail
**Got trapped, own fault**
4.1 rat, rat, skeleton, snail
4.2 rat, flame, skeleton, eye
4.3 rat, flame, skeleton, snail
4.4 flame, flame, skeleton, skeleton, skeleton, snail (trapped skeleton)
4.5 rat, skeleton, skeleton, eye, eye, snail (trapped skeleton)
5.0 Giant Eyes
5.1 rat, flame, flame, snail (infernus)
5.2 rat, skeleton, snail, giant eye
5.3 rat, skeleton, skeleton, snail, snail
5.4 rat, skeleton, skeleton, snail, giant eye
5.5 rat, rat, flame, skeleton, skeleton, snail, giant eye
6.0 Moving Walls
6.1 flame, skeleton, snail, giant eye
6.2 rat, flame, snail, snail
6.3 rat, rat, flame, snail, snail
6.4 flame, skeleton, snail, snail, giant eye
6.5 rat, flame, flame, flame, skeleton, skeleton, snail (infernus) (aggression necessary!)
7.0 Yetis
7.1 rat, flame, skeleton, yeti
7.2 rat, flame, giant eye, yeti
7.3 rat, flame, skeleton, snail, snail
7.4 rat, flame, skeleton, skeleton, snail, yeti
**didn't think carefully about how to handle double skeletons**
7.1 rat, skeleton, giant eye, yeti (skeleton = free kill)
7.2 rat, skeleton, snail, yeti
7.3 rat, flame, skeleton, skeleton, giant eye
7.4 rat, flame, flame, skeleton, skeleton, yeti
7.5 rat, flame, flame, flame, skeleton, giant eye, yeti (infernus) (aggression necessary!)
8.0 Climb Higher
8.1 rat, rat, giant eye, snail, yeti
**eye-swapping + yeti late turn-order**
8.1 rat, rat, flame, skeleton, yeti
8.2 rat, flame, flame, skeleton, snail (infernus)
8.3 rat, rat, flame, skeleton, snail, giant eye (exploited eye)
8.4 rat, rat, flame, flame, snail, giant eye, yeti (infernus)
8.5 rat, flame, flame, skeleton, skeleton, skeleton, giant eye, giant eye (exploited eye)
8.6 rat, flame, flame, flame, skeleton, snail, giant eye, giant eye, yeti
9.0 Slimes
9.1 rat, flame, skeleton, snail, slime
9.2 rat, rat, flame, snail, slime
9.3 flame, skeleton, skeleton, snail, snail, slime
9.4 rat, flame, skeleton, skeleton, snail, snail, giant eye
9.5 rat, rat, flame, flame, skeleton, skeleton, giant eye, yeti
**killed by infernus due to its being unaffected by yeti**
9.1 ?, rat, flame, giant eye (didn't record well)
9.2 rat, rat, flame, skeleton, slime
9.3 skeleton, snail, snail, giant eye, slime, slime
**stupidly killed by eye-swap + snail**
9.1 rat, giant eye, snail, slime, slime
**stupidly killed eye-swap + slime**
9.1 rat, rat, snail, giant eye, slime
9.2 flame, flame, skeleton, slime, slime (infernus, skeleton trapped)
9.3 rat, flame, skeleton, skeleton, yeti, slime
9.4 flame, skeleton, skeleton, snail, snail, giant eye, slime
**killed by eye-swap + skeleton**
9.1 rat, rat, snail, giant eye, slime
9.2 rat, rat, giant eye, yeti, slime
9.3 rat, rat, flame, giant eye, yeti, slime
9.4 rat, flame, skeleton, skeleton, snail, yeti, slime
9.5 rat, flame, flame, skeleton, skeleton, giant eye, yeti, slime
9.6 rat, flame, flame, flame, skeleton, snail, giant eye, giant eye, yeti, slime (trapped skeleton)
10.0 Statues
10.1 rat, skeleton, giant eye, slime (statue)
**killed by moving wall (no timer indicator yet)**
10.1 rat, flame, skeleton, slime, slime
10.2 skeleton, skeleton, snail, slime, slime
10.3 (failed to record)
10.4 rat, rat, flame, skeleton, giant eye, slime, slime
10.5 rat, rat, flame, skeleton, skeleton, snail, giant eye, slime (skeleton trapped)
10.6 rat, flame, flame, flame, snail, giant eye, giant eye, yeti, slime (infernus)
**killed by infernus + yeti rundown**
10.1 rat, rat, rat, giant eye, slime
10.2 rat, rat, snail, giant eye, yeti (statue)
10.3 rat, flame, skeleton, snail, giant eye, slime
10.4 rat, flame, skeleton, snail, snail, giant eye (statue x2)
10.5 rat, flame, skeleton, skeleton, skeleton, giant eye, slime, slime
**killed by moving wall (no timer indicator yet)**
10.1 rat, rat, flame, giant eye, slime (statue x2)
**killed by slime + statue**
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I thought I should expand on the difficulty question, since just posting that log might just introduce detail fatigue. I understand that one of your goals in introducing content gradually is to make the game longer, and that's definitely cool. As it currently stands, though, stages 1-5 or so are pretty easy to breeze through, and real difficulty doesn't go up that much through those stages (it does increase, but slowly). For me, the game is most interesting when I have to think about things constantly--i.e., when it's challenging. So, it might be best if the "flat" period (the period when difficulty increases only slowly) were the stage 5-7/8 difficulty rather than the stage 1-4 difficulty.
I should probably clarify that not everything on the levels where I just breezed through was uninteresting, but many levels were less interesting. My ideal would be that I'm dying quite a few times per stage before I get through it. Not all stages need to have this level of difficulty, of course, since players will obviously improve at different rates.
There is also a big leap in difficulty between floors 1-4 and floors 5-6 in the harder stages (I'm primarily thinking of stage 9 and 10). In my playthroughs, I almost never died on 1-4--except for simple stupid moves--even on these stages. So there might be a lesson to be learned there too. This issue may sort of solve itself once you introduce special rooms.
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Man, Erik That is a lot of info to parse. anyways here is the new stuff
- Eyes do appear along side giant eyes now, but in a limited capacity
- Skeletons moving left was a bug, which I think I squashed.
- bug in the last version. Infernus can also be spawned into the game now, no need to have to small fire guys.
- Freeze now kills small fire guys, and converts large fire guys into small fire guys.
- Snail is now unkillable every other turn when not moving they hide in their shells
- Since the spike warning is in, Spikes can now actually go at different times
- increased monster count and monster CR level requirements.
started working on special rooms, The code to select special rooms is in and working (Special rooms are a 1 in 100 chance now because they are somewhat broken). Next up is setting it so monsters are weighted to be more abundant in special rooms. the first special room will be the fire room. a large fireball trap is in the center of the room, and the room will be weighted to have more fire enemies. they will be immune and smaller fires will become large ones when hit.
still thinking about the unlocks. I like the idea of adding one enemy at each unlock, but like you said for example when the slimes are added there is no real difference.
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hey guys. So moving on to the next big thing I wanted to add and that's special death messages. these are usually just some flavor text for the player. Couple examples are
Rat - "You are not match for my overly large rodents"
Fire - "To hot for ya"
Eye - "I bet you did not see that coming"
Yeti - "Getting cold. better grab some mittens"
Slime - "Indescribable, Indestructible, Nothing can stop it"
Statue - "You fell for the old magic statue trick. Classic!"
if you an thing of any others feel free to drop them here. I need stuff for:
Spikes, Walls, Statues, Rats, Skeletons, Fire, Eyes, Slimes, Snails, Yetis, Liches, Witches, Demons, Dragons, and Ninjas.
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I like a lot of the new changes! I'm not sure that freeze should kill/decrement flames: I kind of liked that there were enemies that weren't affected by freeze. On the other hand, that behavior often meant that you couldn't take advantage of freeze at all (i.e. when a flame was next to a Yeti).
The fire room is definitely cool. Suggestions:
- Have variant layouts, so there isn't just one "fire room" to run across (I've only encountered it once, so I don't know if you've already done that.) Maybe combine with other traps?
- Increase the number of flame-resistant enemies in fire rooms. When I ran into it, it was too easy--the fire trap basically incinerated all the other enemies for me. Maybe when the trap hits a small flame it becomes an infernus?
- For test builds, it might be good to make it possible to encounter special rooms more easily. Maybe a key press?
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Well this has taken a bit of a side project stance. I am working with a creator named Julian Gollop on his new game a remake of the original Chaos game for the ZX spectrum. The new game is called Chaos Reborn (http://www.chaos-reborn.com/). So this only gets a some side time during the week.
The biggest change is a after playing Hoplite I always wondered why the hero could never block with his shield. I also wanted to get some more tactical feeling with the movement into the game so I added a shield mechanic. Basically the player can block attacks coming from either the left or the right. they cant always block it works as a sort of mini health system. Its done a lot to mitigate the overall difficulty curve, which was really hard.
As for the game itself its currently a 10 floor Tower. The player heads up to the tenth floor to grab the treasure, and then returns to the bottom. The tenth floor is a dragons horde, so the dragon chases the player on the way out. Showing up after a few turns on each floor pushing the player to rush forward.
There is not much replayability at the moment. The game is not terribly different from one playthrough to the next so I have been thinking about that. I like the idea used in Roguelikes of overshooting your goal. So I have been thinking about how to incorporate that.
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I don't see any link, where is the game? Julian made some legendary games. Good luck with Chaos.
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did you mean a link to MicRogue or to the Chaos Reborn site?