Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Websites => Off-topic (Locked) => Topic started by: Insane Chef on April 23, 2013, 10:37:03 AM
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Good morning everyone!
I have been playing a few RL a few years ago (mainly Castle in the Winds, for Windows 3.11) and recently came back with gems like Dungeons of Dredmor, FTL and Binding of Isaac (I know these two aren't real RL, but still...)
So I decided to dig in the genre with games like Pixel Dungeon (android version of Brogue), but looking for something slightly more complex.
This is a list of what I want:
- Random generated levels (dungeons at least, all world too if possible)
- Extreme randomness in items (new unidentified items every game)
- If possible, tileset (not a graphics whore, but need to admit that ASCII is a bit of an eye-sore)
- Easy to pick up, but mainly no need for an external guide/forum/wiki to understand what's going on or what do I need to do
- (not mandatory) No class system, I need to feel customization without finding myself "locked" to a spec/build
That's all I can think for now. I checked ADOM (too complex) and currently trying out UnReal World RPG
Any ideas?
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Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup might fit the bill.
ToME is also very popular.
Both have classes though.
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But which one has the highest amount of random generated content? I want a completely new adventure every time I click "start"
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Almost every RL the items are completely randomized each game. Here's a fun little one from someone on the forum, Kali's Ladder (http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=3237.0), which lets you choose from plenty of skills each game to build your character. No download needed, its online, so try it a few times and see how you like it (games don't tend to last too long)
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Good morning everyone!
I have been playing a few RL a few years ago (mainly Castle in the Winds, for Windows 3.11) and recently came back with gems like Dungeons of Dredmor, FTL and Binding of Isaac (I know these two aren't real RL, but still...)
So I decided to dig in the genre with games like Pixel Dungeon (android version of Brogue), but looking for something slightly more complex.
This is a list of what I want:
- Random generated levels (dungeons at least, all world too if possible)
- Extreme randomness in items (new unidentified items every game)
- If possible, tileset (not a graphics whore, but need to admit that ASCII is a bit of an eye-sore)
Pretty much every roguelike has these three. If you want a tileset in a roguelike that doesn't have one, try noteye.
- Easy to pick up, but mainly no need for an external guide/forum/wiki to understand what's going on or what do I need to do
- (not mandatory) No class system, I need to feel customization without finding myself "locked" to a spec/build
These two are pretty much impossible to find, especially in combination. There are very few roguelikes without class systems.
All roguelikes are randomly generated when you play them, so "highest amount of random generated content" is kindof meaningless since they all randomly generate their content. There are a few that have some static content like ADOM's overworld, but they're rare and the static content is usually confined to a single area or two.
Anyway, here's some roguelikes I recommend, but they don't meet your specifications entirely:
Crawl, TOME, Angband, ZAngband.
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here's some roguelikes I recommend, but they don't meet your specifications entirely:
Crawl, TOME, Angband, ZAngband.
Thanks Elig, could you please tell me which one of these has more random content and is easiest to pick up?
By random content I mean dungeon level maps, always different, not only mobs and objects/loot
Thanks!
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I'd check out TOME if I were you. If I recall correctly, the UI is easier to pick up than Crawl or Angband. Also, why not give Powder a try? Regarding random content, as has been pointed out, this is by many considered the main feature of the genre. In fact, you'll be hard pressed to find a RL without randomized level layouts etc.
If you can live without the fantasy theme, classless games may be easier to find: In my opinion, two really nice games are Infra Arcana (horror/Lovecraft) and Caves of Qud (post-apocalyptic/mutants; UI smells of ADOM and Dwarf Fortress – not very palatable – but the game is a friggin' masterpiece).
As always,
Minotauros
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I think IVAN meets your criteria very well.
- (not mandatory) No class system, I need to feel customization without finding myself "locked" to a spec/build
In Crawl, the class only defines your initial equipment and skillset. But you are not locked, you can learn whatever you want.
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Caves of Qud uses a skill system for character advancement, you get points based on your Int and you spend them to buy the skills you want. Very flexible.
Even more flexible if you make a mutant character where you get to select and buy mutations at character creation and as you level.
Even _more_ flexible if you play a mutant with 4 arms, 4 legs, and double jointed mutations......
I just got my friend into Caves of Qud, he'd never played roguelikes and never played a game with ASCII graphics, and he's loving it.
Tip: there's an option in the options menu to "Disable Floor Textures" which toggles off a lot of the visual clutter that many people seem to object to.
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A for a new dungeon, loot and monsters each time. I can't think of a roguelike that lacks these qualities. Procedural generation is the corner stone of the genre, meaning that every time you start the game it digs out a new dungeon for you and scatters about items and monsters. There may be only a finite number of items and monsters, but they are strewn about in infinite ways.
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here's some roguelikes I recommend, but they don't meet your specifications entirely:
Crawl, TOME, Angband, ZAngband.
Thanks Elig, could you please tell me which one of these has more random content and is easiest to pick up?
By random content I mean dungeon level maps, always different, not only mobs and objects/loot
Thanks!
All of them have random levels. Random dungeon levels are the most core aspect of any roguelike. If it doesn't have random levels, it's really not a roguelike. Like Jo said, procedural generation is the cornerstone of the entire genre.
As for easiest to pick up, it's a draw between Crawl and TOME. TOME is probably technically more complicated, but Crawl has a lot of nuances. I find Angband very easy to pick up because the gameplay is so straightforward, but it's not quite as self explanatory as Crawl. Angband requires a certain knowledge of roguelike tropes, but otherwise is very straight forward.
I also second the suggestion of powder. I've never played it personally, but always heard very good things. IVAN is also a quality roguelike.
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Thanks lot for the excellent suggestions.
Will spend the rest of the week trying them and will let you know!
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Some explanations of the ones which best fit you:
Powder - Has tiles, no classes (deity choice ends up a bit class-y, but you can change frequently mid-game) and lots and lots of randomness. Very easy to get into and quick to play.
ToME4 - Has tiles, great interface. Has classes, but there is a lot of customisation within class progression - it's not linear. It has a lot of random items, but you might find some of the dungeons a bit samey between multiple playthroughs. The game doesn't have a good wiki, entirely because all of the explanations are already in the game in the form of tooltips. Really easy to get into, but also very complex when you get into the depths of things.
Brogue - Has a tiles version, no classes, lots of randomness. Generally considered the best "designed" roguelike in terms of balancing. Lots of interesting features and enemies.
There are no games with a good randomised overworld, with perhaps Dwarf Fortress as an exception.
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I challenge you to play brogue and still consider ascii to be an eye-sore!
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Been playing CRAWL for the last few days, very nice indeed, but a bit "simple".
Now trying out ToME (still downloading), will let you know.
Is ADOM that hard to grasp? Too many trips to the wiki?
Which one is your favourite and why?
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ADOM is not that hard at all, but it's an old-school game which may scare off younger players - no tutorial, no tooltips, no mouse support, strange key commands. Of course, these are all things you can quickly get used to and once you do, the game becomes easy (but definitely not "simple").
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My favs are the 'simple' ones. The quick plays with good variety. Games like Aliens, Brogue, Rodney, etc...those are all ASCII games so I didn't mention them before.
If you think Crawl is a simple game I think you might be missing something. It's definitely not simple or easy.
How about Powder? Did you try that one? It's pretty tough game.
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For now I'm learning ToME (love it, lots of variety and seems quite deep). Higher Arcane Sword, I think it's the race/class
When I need something more chilled, I play UnRealWorld (still tutorial, so much to do and learn)
Would be awesome a good one for Android, for my wasted commuting time.
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Oh I hear that man. RL's are perfect for train/bus play I think.
Did you check out Andrew Doul's annual poll results? At the end of every year he does a poll concerning the best RL game of the year. Since most game have an update at least once a year, most games make the list. I think Powder wasn't on there, but it did well the year before.
Here is a link. As you can see ToME kicked but. I think it's won like 3 years in a row.
http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/search/label/ascii%20dreams%20roguelike%20of%20the%20year
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I can see that ToME is by far the most popular (seen many lists like that).
But does that make it the best one?
I imagine it happens the same as with World of Warcraft a few years ago. 13+ million people playing, but not the favourite. Just had a very addictive gameplay for casuals, but no deep systems of anything. People loved Guild Wars or EverQuest (1&2).
SO ToME is the most played because it's the most accessible (great tutorial, popup system, unlocks), but ADOM is far deeper, altho it's extremely limited.
This is my impression, am I too far off?
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For android there is Pixel Dungeon, it did add classes recently, but they basically just change how your character starts out. It's largely based on brogue, and can be quite fun when you're bored.
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I can see that ToME is by far the most popular (seen many lists like that).
But does that make it the best one?
I imagine it happens the same as with World of Warcraft a few years ago. 13+ million people playing, but not the favourite. Just had a very addictive gameplay for casuals, but no deep systems of anything. People loved Guild Wars or EverQuest (1&2).
SO ToME is the most played because it's the most accessible (great tutorial, popup system, unlocks), but ADOM is far deeper, altho it's extremely limited.
This is my impression, am I too far off?
Yes. I'd say pretty far off. Sorry. I wouldn't characterize it that way at all. None of these games are for casuals, though some are easier to pick up and play. ToME is not the easiest game to get into in the Roguelike genre. Probably Cardinal Quest, and the upcoming sequel, are WAY easier to get into. So is Brogue. None are mainstream type games and there's no real WoW. Besides WoW retains its market share in the face of better games because of the rpg aspect. People are invested in their characters, they have online relationships, etc...most other MMO's are just as approachable, or nearly so.
I play a lot of roguelikes and I very much dislike ToME4. Can't say why, it's just not my thing. I can recognize the high quality though. I also don't much get into Adom. I like the smaller, tighter, quicker games. I much prefer Brogue, maybe some DoomRL, Infra Arcana, that sort of thing. Or Slashies new game Rodney, which just today got a graphical tileset. It's still new and working out the kinks but it's a nice basic game. Crawl or even Nethack are more fun for me than ToME or Adom when it comes to the big games. Angband is also another huge game I haven't tackled.
So it just depends on who you are. Some are big and sprawling, some are tight and quick. Some focus more on graphics, etc...it's a very broad genre.
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Yeah, ToME was a huge disappointment for me, too. People are talking about it all the time, but when I launched it, after 5 minutes I had enough. It disgustingly reminds me WoW and just doesn't feel like a good, old-school game. It's made to be popular, but "popular" is no longer something that encourages me to play.
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Aw, so many downvotes for ToME...
Ok, let me bring my previous question back again: what's your favourite (one, not several) and why?
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Currently my favorite is crawl. There isn't really a list of reasons why I like it the most. It's just the one I enjoy the most right now, but you know I still play a lot of other roguelikes. I play nethack very seriously from time to time, and really enjoy it. I used to really love ZAngband, but that was many versions ago back when the overworld was still fixed rather than random.
I don't actually like TOME. I've always preferred ZAngband since the beginning, but most people seem to love TOME and I don't blame them.
Probably 90% of my roguelike playing is Crawl, and 9% is nethack, and 1% is everything else. That sounds bad, but it's more of a reflection of the sheer amount of time I waste in crawl. The worst part is, I've gotten much further in Nethack than in Crawl...
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Have you looked at IRLDb (http://forums.roguetemple.com/irldb/index.php?i=5451b8&s=21.22.)? My ratings and experience (http://forums.roguetemple.com/irldb/player.php?id=rogue8)
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Aw, so many downvotes for ToME...
Ok, let me bring my previous question back again: what's your favourite (one, not several) and why?
Brogue. Classic style dungeon dive. No classes or fussing about, you can just play. Very simple interface but still allows you to do all the standard things. A very tight design.
That's hands down my favorite.
Don't worry about the downvotes for ToME. People are giving you solid entries but we cannot tell you which is best for you.
edit: There is a roguelike radio episode on this topic, sorta.
http://www.roguelikeradio.com/
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Izuna: Legend Of The Unemployed Ninja
but you'll have to have a DS and like Mystery Dungeon mechanics to enjoy it
http://www.atlus.com/izuna/ (http://www.atlus.com/izuna/)
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SO ToME is the most played because it's the most accessible (great tutorial, popup system, unlocks), but ADOM is far deeper, altho it's extremely limited.
This is my impression, am I too far off?
Yeah, way far off. ToME is accessible but still deep, and for many it is impenetrably complex. Though it tries to have a nice interface it doesn't hold back on delivering what is a fairly "hardcore" experience. In particular compared to most roguelikes it has a very involved battle system, with a variety of skills and resources to need to rely on. The usual boring "bump to attack" doesn't work in ToME.
Eben: I really hated Izuna myself, especially when I kept coming up against the enemies that could erase your equipment buffs. It was far too simple with too few options, and artificially extended gameplay length. Shiren is considered superior in every way if you want that style of game.