Temple of The Roguelike Forums

Game Discussion => Early Dev => Topic started by: jasonpickering on March 25, 2013, 05:58:50 PM

Title: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on March 25, 2013, 05:58:50 PM

hey guys, so I threw this together to test out an idea I had. basically I wanted to try out a system for spells similar to the Energy system used in the board game King of Tokyo (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/70323/king-of-tokyo).

Try It! (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/21825227/Prototypes/Dungeoneer_prototype.swf)

Overview:
by opening the inventory in the top corner. You are given three spells. each spell has an associated cost. you can also clear the spells for 3. Your money is kills. so killing enemies allows you to buy spells. There are only 4 spells at the moment, but I would hope to have a full deck of them (Like maybe 20 different ones) and also have them in different amounts like several potion spells, but only one heal spell.

controls:
- Arrows,WASD, Numpad to move.
- Use 123 for the Spells
- R to Restart

Remember this was just a test for the skill system. if this actually worked out I would probably expand the idea out and add a lot more Spells, and Monsters. I have also been thinking about code to build Randomized stories, similar to a D&D quest. (Hence the different environments)

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: st33d on March 25, 2013, 09:17:30 PM

I didn't read (lol) and it took me a while to translate kills into spell costs - because there's nothing in the spell menu that shows skulls for spells.

Seems to work okay, but the surround attack has one obvious design flaw in that you can chain it by killing all the things next to you. Ripping of the spells in that 82342342134234 by brog might help (push is a super-useful spell).

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on March 25, 2013, 11:12:56 PM

yeah, I think I might make is so only physical attacks give you money. The Warp was actually taken from Zaga-33. I have been looking at that, but i need to double check "High Number Game", that might have some good ideas. the thing I like is I have card frequency and price to balance with.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: guest509 on March 26, 2013, 01:30:36 AM

  I did the surround with fire attack and got nothing. :-(

  Vista + Firefox.

  I do like what you are doing and have always liked your style.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on March 26, 2013, 02:56:15 AM

it doesn't have an effect in game, but it should kill anything around you. its an attack and not a shield.

thanks. I feel like I am finally starting to find my pixel style. and its helped my regular 2D work. I still need to hook up with a programmer someday and do some collaborations. I really want more graphical RLs on iOS and android.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on March 27, 2013, 11:50:57 PM

small update. Completely redoing the turn system so the monsters all move at the same time. I am slowly building out my own RL engine for Flash so this is turning into a pretty good test. even if the game is boring. The code will be really useful.

additions:
- Goblin = Does 2 hearts worth of Damage to the Player
- Skip Turn Spell.

still on the fence as to whether or not to continue this. I am still trying to fix the one major problem and that is sometimes you just coast through a level because the enemies all line up perfectly so that by killing enemies you are always offsetting what the next enemy is doing so you can just plow through enemies. I am trying to do a ranged enemy next.

so what do you guys think of the spell system? does it have merit? is it to random and does it allow for some strategy?

Edit: Also physical attacks only earn Kills to spend. So the Fire Spell wont earn you any kills.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: guest509 on March 28, 2013, 12:08:56 AM

  Seems strategic and fun to me.

  Adding a monster that moves 2, or can fly over/jump over others might be a fix for all the baddies lining up. I wouldn't call that a fatal flaw in our game though. Hey, sometimes the level is easy, hurray. Next time you die!

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on March 28, 2013, 12:48:22 AM

I had an idea for a character that moves two (Wolf very fast) but I have not figured out a good way to do it in code yet.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: guest509 on March 28, 2013, 01:01:14 AM

Maybe warping would be better? Or a guy that moves diagonal once in awhile? I had Fed Scouts move diagonal in KlingonRL but ended up cutting them for time reasons.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on March 28, 2013, 01:17:36 AM

I was mad cause I drew a ninja and got all set to make it so they only appear when you are in line with them. But then realized that is directly lifted from Michael's new game.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: guest509 on March 28, 2013, 03:34:34 AM

Psshhh. No one will notice.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: AgingMinotaur on March 28, 2013, 08:21:50 AM

I like it. It's nice to see you revisit some of your older ideas, from projects like MicRogue – eg. floating eyes. I like the system with "spell cards", I really believe it has potential¹, and I think using kills/skulls as a currency is a great idea. It forces the player to keep moving, and to make the best of whichever hand of actions s/he has available at any time. It's certainly a system that could be embellished, like allowing the player to build a repertoire of spells, similar to how you'd build a deck of cards in games like Dominion, Magic, etc.

As always,
Minotauros

¹ I've even been experimenting with a similar idea myself. There is an old prototype available here (http://code.google.com/p/out-of-breadth/downloads/list), but it needs Python and pygame to run.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: AgingMinotaur on March 28, 2013, 08:26:43 AM

Nitpick: Continuous movement when you hold down an arrow key would be nice (and pretty standard, if you're building a RL engine). Also a keyboard interface to access the inventory, IMHO. Something simple, like pressing "I", followed by "1", "2", or "3", should suffice.

As always,
Minotauros

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on March 28, 2013, 01:05:10 PM

So the biggest problem I face right now is thinking of spells. I like the idea that spells are not directional and are used as soon as they activate, but I think I might need to change it because I have come up with a lot of good spells but they are all directional in nature. So that might be my next move. Adding some directional spells.

Charge - attack then move into that spot
Fireball - shoot a fireball
Slash - attack in a direction plus the two spaces diagonal from that.
Stun - stun a character next to you making them immobile for 3 turns.
Ice block - create wall on space for 5 turns

Freeze - freeze all characters for 2 turns.
Shield - take no damage next 2 turns.


The game will probably not benefit from a player finding spells as it means they may pickup spells and never get to use them. I also thought about creating different heroes and giving them mini decks of spells for each character, giving physical spells to the fighter, and magic to the wizard. They would probably get like 10 spells each

An idea that I might try for this is from a design dock I have called "Custom RL". Basically the idea is the player starts and they are given a screen with a bunch of options. So maybe they want a short easy adventure in the forest. Well now they are generated a game of about 8 floors in a forest, and all monsters are forest themed, and there are not a lot of them, so it's much easier.

But then I think that really doesn't convey the spell deck idea. And it seems like two different ideas. So I might save that for a future project and just keep building on it. Since limiting the monsters to settings might unbalance the game. Also in difficulty it would have a Darren setting.

Edit: Continuous movement was in a past build. I had to drop it for the current build as a bandage for a strange positioning bug. where a player could get stuck half way between two squares. I will think about designing some keyboard stuff fr the shop.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on March 29, 2013, 01:52:42 AM

Another small update. worked on some under the hood map stuff. Added another enemy. The Zombie. It moves slow, so only moves every other turn. I also drew up a Lich, which will summon Zombies. I might switch that though. I might add Skeletons which do not give kills. and have the Lich summon them. I am afraid it will be easy to farm the Lich.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on April 01, 2013, 02:52:06 AM

working on an update that changes the gameplay. basically the player will still have the Deck, but they will not be able to reuse cards. Clear will still reshuffle the deck, but once a spell is used it will be gone forever. I also plan on doing multiple characters. and each character has a different Deck.

next I have a plan to build "Adventures". these will consist of just data from XML files. It will set the Area, Monsters to use for that area, and also adventuring text. so as an example the first adventure I am building is the "Cavern of Skulls". Its adventuring through a cave with rats, skeletons, and eventually liches.

Also all heroes will be named, and have small decks built of ten to 15 cards. the first one will be Desmond the Wizard.

the Good news is I will probably be teaming up with people to create new adventures and new heroes. I have been thinking about creating a system to let people make their own adventures and trade them, but I dont know how well it will work.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on April 01, 2013, 08:03:51 PM

New updated file. it now has the adventure built from my Quest data file, The cavern of skulls full of Rats, and skeletons. I want to add Liches, but they have a code problem with spawning skeletons. so adventures are really easy for me to build on my end. the current XML looks like this

<Quest Name = "Cavern of Skulls" Treasure = "Crystal Skull" Difficulty = "1">
   <Floor Area = "Cave" Monsters = "Rat" />
   <Floor Area = "Cave" Monsters = "Rat,Rat,Rat,Skeleton" />
   <Floor Area = "Cave" Monsters = "Rat,Rat,Skeleton" />
   <Floor Area = "Cave" Monsters = "Rat,Skeleton" />
   <Floor Area = "Cave" Monsters = "Rat,Skeleton,Skeleton" />
</Quest>

I can set each individual area and also the monsters. Next I want to add a way to write flavor text for the in-between sections. so I can have more dynamic adventures. like you travel through the woods, then come to a cave and I can have  a screen with something like "upon Exiting the woods, you located the Cavern of Skulls". give some context and help to make it feel like a real world.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: Darren Grey on April 03, 2013, 01:33:44 PM

Just gave this a go.  It's very fun!  Feels similar to 86856527 in a lot of ways, but with the deck-building expanded it'll become more individual.

I don't like the spell control scheme though.  Transferring to a list all the time is quite painful.  I'd much rather have icons on the top row for the 3 cards and a reshuffle icon, with 1234 as keyboard shortcuts for them.  You could have tooltips (or long-press for tooltips) to state what they do.  And this system would make it clearer that using an ability causes it to be replaced - you could have an animation of a card flying out from the deck for instance.  Here's a mock-up:

http://i.imgur.com/6f9AXU1.png

Hastily done artwork there...  Obviously would be hard to match up with your current blocky style, but personally I think it's okay for UI elements to look different from map elements.

I changed the skull to blood because I think that makes more sense in the game. Currently it's confusing that skeletons don't give kills, especially since they look like the kill counter!  To make it extra obvious you could have drops of blood appear from enemies when they're slain.  If an enemy gives multiple counts it would have 2 drops appear, etc.

Quote from: jasonpickering on March 26, 2013, 02:56:15 AM

I still need to hook up with a programmer someday and do some collaborations. I really want more graphical RLs on iOS and android.

Hah, I'd leap on that if I knew anything about iOS/android, or had halfway decent programming skills  :-/  But you seem to be quite capable yourself, in both design and coding.  Just ask for help more when you have programming problems.

Quote from: jasonpickering on March 28, 2013, 01:05:10 PM

So the biggest problem I face right now is thinking of spells.

Well I'm sure I can think up a few...

Pull - draw all enemies towards you
Dig - destroy walls 2 spaces in each of the cardinal directions; will also kill stone enemies or enemies inside the walls
Infection - All enemies adjacent are poisoned and receive 1 damage next turn. If next to another enemy the infection spreads. When used correctly it can cause a wave of death.
Wind - Move all enemies one square in a specified direction
Confuse - All enemies confused for one turn - they move randomly and may bump and kill each other
Rush - Move up to three squares in a direction - if hit an enemy attack it
Warp All - Randomly teleport everyone, including yourself
Time Freeze - All enemies inactive for 3 turns
Sacrifice - Reduce everyone, including yourself, to 1 HP
Traps - Add a single-trigger spike trap to each of the diagonal spaces around you
Invisible - Makes you invisible for 3 turns as long as you don't attack anything
Regen - Gain 1 HP per turn for the next 3 turns
Brute - Do 2 damage in melee for the next 5 turns
Power - For the next 3 rounds all cards used have double effect
Minions - Summon friendly skeletons in the available space around you. You can swap places with them. They don't last to the next level.

Some enemy types:

Knight - Has an armour layer. One hit will destroy the armour, second hit will kill. But fire spell (and maybe other stuff) will kill it in one.
Bloat - Kills 1HP enemies next to it, absorbing their HP. Very dangerous around a Lich...  Maybe gets slower as it has more HP?
Troll - Has 3HP, regens 1 HP every 3 turns
Ghost - Moves through walls
Giant Mole - Digs through walls
Spiked Knight - Same as Knight, but with the armour on it causes 1 damage when hit with a melee attack
Assassin - Invisible except when next to you
Fire Sprite - Throws fireballs which move 1 square per turn towards you (and continue behind if you dodge, potentially hitting enemies), also immune to fire and it hurts to hit them in melee
Wisp - Teleports randomly each turn. If next to you it will attack and then teleport away.

Quote

But then I think that really doesn't convey the spell deck idea. And it seems like two different ideas. So I might save that for a future project and just keep building on it. Since limiting the monsters to settings might unbalance the game. Also in difficulty it would have a Darren setting.

Hah, I always appreciate harder difficulty settings  :)

For the whole deck-building thing, you might consider a race/class system.  3 races with their own deck, 3 classes with their own deck, and a few base cards like wait a turn. That would be 9 combinations. There could also be extra cards one can pick up by beating bosses in the game. Some could be powerful artifact cards that are permanently discarded from the deck if they're used.

A problem at the moment is monster distribution.  I think your monster generator should always spawn enemies on the same parity as the player.  This makes it harder to string easy kills.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on April 04, 2013, 03:20:08 PM

 Changing up the deck UI is a great idea. I actually had something similar when I had just potions, but after the change to a spell deck I changed it. The biggest problem is giving the p,Ayer info, but that should be easy.

I am torn on spell decks though. The different race, class combo sounds great, but I am not sure if there will be a super powerful combination. My original idea was named heroes and that would be easier as I could build a specific deck for that character, but as I wanted to keep the spell count low. The combo idea might work giving each selection three spells. It will probably feel similar to Desktop Dungeons.

I also added chests. These just have small spells, that are not magic or anything related. Like potion, and wait.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: Darren Grey on April 05, 2013, 07:03:12 PM

Powerful combos isn't a bad thing to have in the game. Let the player have fun exploring them and figuring them out. And let them take on bad combos for extra challenge. This happens in many big roguelikes already. Overall though no combo can be all that powerful, due to the random nature of the deck and how a card gets discarded after use. This lets you play more freely with balance.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on April 05, 2013, 08:54:41 PM

Okay so Doing some Mockups for the UI switch. Does anyone actually reshuffle the deck? I was just wondering cause I don't think I have ever actually used it.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: Darren Grey on April 05, 2013, 09:04:16 PM

I haven't, it costs too much. Give it for 1 kill and it would be useful. It's also nice to have to enforce the idea of a deck at hand. Still, you could just cut it and the game wouldn't be significantly harmed.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on April 05, 2013, 10:02:56 PM

yeah. I am thinking of cutting it, but adding an enemy, that shuffles your deck.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: Darren Grey on April 05, 2013, 10:23:40 PM

That's a pretty cool idea. Makes sense that enemies should have deck-disrupting abilities.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on April 06, 2013, 02:32:51 AM

yeah, I should really play with the deck idea. I am also trying to figure out a way to add junk cards to your deck, but have not thought of a good idea yet. I am also thinking of maybe having monsters that add cards. like perhaps killing a lich, gives you a summon skeleton card.

working on some UI mockups, trying to see what works best.

(http://i47.tinypic.com/2qmhlwh.png)

(http://i46.tinypic.com/149r30i.png)

(http://i48.tinypic.com/fkcwnc.png)

I think either 2 or 3, but i think 2 works better. i might make the number, the same color as the blood symbol to make it match.

Edit: oh also I limited the Kill counter to 9. I think this works better as it adds a little bit more  to the spell costs and making the higher rated ones, more expensive.

 The other idea I had is changing out the kill counter to be 4 drops of blood similar to the way the hearts work. then going back to the Dot idea on the spells tiles. That might be a little more visually cohesive, but it gives me less play with spell costs.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on April 06, 2013, 08:17:09 PM

another update. tweaked a bunch of stuff. I also added Monster tags, so I can mark different monsters as certain categories and then have specific spells target them. I added the newest spell "Purge". its a blue cross and costs 6. It kills all undead creatures on the current floor.

Next on the list is getting the UI running better. I need to add the ability to see what a spell does and I need to tweak the UI. I want to add a number next to the blood drop to show the cards left in our deck. Still on the fence about doing health as a number or making hearts count as 2, so there are half hearts zelda style. That would shrink the UI.

I also drew up some new enemies and heroes, I added a ninja that is only visible when in line, A Cyclops that has 2 Health although they are not in this current build. so give it a try at the same link and tell me what you think. Again I am always open to comments and suggestions.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on April 10, 2013, 02:27:27 AM

Another Update!!!

this time I have added a Shield Spell that protects you from damage for 3 turns, and also a freeze spells that freezes every enemy for 3 turns.

also working on the Character system. Still on the fence about it. the system is super easy to code, so I am more worried about the art at the moment. Here is my current character lineup. and you can see I have the first 4 Classes (Wizard, Cleric, Sorceress, Bard) as Elf and Human. I just don't think it looks as good because I am forcing myself to fit into specific criteria. with the faces and body shapes. I think when I was doing the pre-built Heroes I was having a much better art turnout and it allowed for more variety in one each deck could hold.

(http://i46.tinypic.com/kbsynl.png)

Edit: so I have been thinking and I might still be able to create custom decks. I just need to think about other ways that the player can be changed that don't effect the art of the character. I am thinking maybe base heroes and then letting them choose maybe an artifact, that adds spells, or perhaps which god to worship and have that add spells. I would not need to show these items in game meaning I don't need to change the player art, plus I could do a lot of fun stuff with finding new artifacts for the player. I am thinking of doing it so the player has three spells, the artifact is two spells and the god adds one spell. I have been testing and six feels like a good deck starting number it's not to many, but it still makes you feel prepared.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on April 10, 2013, 06:12:05 PM

Character Creation Mockup

(http://i49.tinypic.com/35n4ti8.png)

still need to play with it a bit more, and feels a bit cramped at the moment, but we will see.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: Darren Grey on April 11, 2013, 11:56:31 PM

Nice idea, and it does allow more freedom.  The race/class set-up can be a bit forced.

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on April 12, 2013, 03:02:51 PM

I dropped the god idea, Figure I will go wit just hero and item. Here is a more complete Mockup. Each hero or item will also have 1 to 4 spells associated with it.

(http://i48.tinypic.com/2llj4id.png)

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: Darren Grey on April 12, 2013, 05:50:39 PM

Certainly looks nicer, and cuts out some needless complexity.

What are the plans for content and progression in the game?

Title: Re: Dungeoneer (Temp Name)
Post by: jasonpickering on April 12, 2013, 06:10:39 PM

I have had a Couple Ideas. I wanted the small quests similar to Desktop Dungeons but here are a couple ideas I have. I am thinking either 2 or 3 and mixing in some 4 for special content:

1. in Game store:
Currency is given as you complete levels and missions and these can be used to purchase new items, heroes, and quests.

2. Unlocks progression
Completing the missions grants you new missions, heroes, and Items

3. Unlock volume
player starts with a pool of missions, heroes, and items. The pools are enlarged as missions are completed. completing a misson with 3 of the 5 heroes adds 2 more heroes. completing 3 of the 5 missions adds more missions.

4. Secret Unlocks
As you play Runes are found. these runes unlock more content.

comments are welcome.