Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Game Discussion => Classic Roguelikes => Topic started by: deathknight1728 on March 25, 2013, 01:22:15 AM
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I have been loving dungeons of dredmor lately not just because of its incredibly awesome skill/lvling system, but because it gives you the option of not having permadeath. I know many will automatically label me as a coward and weak gamer, but I find that I can enjoy the game a bit more.
Does anyone know of any rogue likes like dredmor that give the option to not have it? Its a shame because rogue likes in general have more roleplaying/stats and what not than most regular rpgs Ive played. Gawd!!
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Tales of Maj'Eyal (http://www.te4.org/) would be the most obvious - it's a huge game with an optional lives system. If you donate you can get Explorer Mode, which gives you infinite lives.
For something smaller check out PrincessRL (http://flend.net/princessrl/index.html). It sends you back to the town if you die, though this can still be a hindrance to character development.
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Its kind of lame for me because I really liked getting into the game demo "The Pit", but the one thing keeping me from buying it is the thing that will likely make it impossible to complete the game on easy. Its too bad because Dredmor allows you to play it however you want. Its a shame that one thing can't be made as an option. I used to play Doom the Rl but it got boring to play back and forth because whats the point of playing a game where my character will expire at any time.
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Its kind of lame for me because I really liked getting into the game demo "The Pit", but the one thing keeping me from buying it is the thing that will likely make it impossible to complete the game on easy. Its too bad because Dredmor allows you to play it however you want. Its a shame that one thing can't be made as an option. I used to play Doom the Rl but it got boring to play back and forth because whats the point of playing a game where my character will expire at any time.
Your character is going to expire at the end of every game. It's not about the destination. Of course, if you also don't like the journey...
Anyway, I double DGrey's ToME4 nomination. The game is much more rpg-like than most roguelikes, and quality-wise it is worth a donation for infinite lives if that is the road you want to take.
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Legerdemain has checkpoints that you are simply returned to upon death, if I recall correctly. Starting from the inn in the first village. I guess this is because the game features a lot of fixed content, that you wouldn't want to replay. Concerning other games, err, you can always savescum ^.^
As always,
Minotauros
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Yeah, savescumming is very viable in many games. I first got into ADOM with a lot of savescumming.
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Does anyone know of any rogue likes like dredmor that give the option to not have it?
Yes, those games are called regular role-playing games, or RPGs. Roguelikes on the other hand are all about permadeath. It's possibly the most important feature of a roguelike.
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For me the definition of roguelike is a game that uses the interplay between permadeath and procedural content to create interesting player decisions. Understanding that interplay is the main challenge in designing a roguelike.
I try to solve it by creating 'common rare occurrences'. Like in KlingonRL you can happen upon a system with no gas giants (low fuel), Romulans, Space Whales, Tons of Pirates, No Pirates, Starbases or None. You'll never see everything in one game. You might not ever see the Romulans. But the point is that even if you die, it's no biggie because the next game will be all new challenges.
The other main design challenge is making it so the character knows why they died so they can adjust for next time. Eventually a player will play enough that they know how to beat enough of the challenges they can beat the game. Thus achieving mastery.
Other permadeath genres solve the issue in other ways. Arcade games might have multiple lives, but they have permafailure too. No saving in an arcade game. They solve this issue by making the game EXACTLY the same each time so that a player can hone their skills to superhuman precision.
Strategy games have permafailure as well, but most commonly they allow saving and reloading. It is common, however, to play a game on Hardcore and not allow reloading. Play Battle for Wesnoth this way and watch your play experience deepen to fantastic levels. Make sure you put it on easy mode though, that game is brutal.
Understanding that's how the game is designed and appreciating it is a challenge for many (most) players.
Making all of that stuff actually fun is another thing altogether.
So to the question of a roguelike without Permadeath, what you are really asking for is a hybrid. An RPG with procedural content. That can still be a fun game, but it will not have the core trait that makes a roguelike interesting. It can, however, have that core trait that makes an RPG interesting. Which is the ability to develop a character to fantastic levels without having to worry about losing. You just can't lose in an RPG, kinda stress free.
BTW if you are looking to go the other way, to keep permadeath but ditch procedural content, then you are in luck. Any RPG can be played in this way. Any game can, really. There was a dude that played Far Cry that way.
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The Mystery Dungeon series of games have a nice mix of consequences for death, but not resetting you back to the beginning of the game. Chocobo Mystery Dungeon is my favorite so far, primarily for the cute factor.
For a short game to get into, PrincessRL gets my vote as well.
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krice: "roguelikes are all about permadeath"
Uh huh. You know, if you play your "roguelikes" on a local system, you never really have permadeath. You can bail on the concept at any time if you find yourself too attached to your character to let it go.
Maybe you play all your games on a server where you have no privileged access, for example the main crawl server, but somehow I doubt it. If I'm right, you shouldn't be beating your chest about your purity of roguelike spirit. If you're not playing it on a university network dumb terminal or something damn similar, you're just another sentimental poseur, imo.
But please, tell us more about what roguelikes are all about. I understand you like tiles...
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Play PrincessRL (http://flend.net/princessrl/index.html)! It's great and while it does penalize you for losing all of your health, it doesn't have permadeath. Getting to the end is pretty easy, but getting the best ending is not.
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krice: "roguelikes are all about permadeath"
Uh huh. You know, if you play your "roguelikes" on a local system, you never really have permadeath. You can bail on the concept at any time if you find yourself too attached to your character to let it go.
Maybe you play all your games on a server where you have no privileged access, for example the main crawl server, but somehow I doubt it. If I'm right, you shouldn't be beating your chest about your purity of roguelike spirit. If you're not playing it on a university network dumb terminal or something damn similar, you're just another sentimental poseur, imo.
But please, tell us more about what roguelikes are all about. I understand you like tiles...
Didn't take you long to bump into Krice. You get used to him. :-)
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krice: "roguelikes are all about permadeath"
Uh huh. You know, if you play your "roguelikes" on a local system, you never really have permadeath. You can bail on the concept at any time if you find yourself too attached to your character to let it go.
Maybe you play all your games on a server where you have no privileged access, for example the main crawl server, but somehow I doubt it. If I'm right, you shouldn't be beating your chest about your purity of roguelike spirit. If you're not playing it on a university network dumb terminal or something damn similar, you're just another sentimental poseur, imo.
But please, tell us more about what roguelikes are all about. I understand you like tiles...
Why are people so afraid of genres? Genres are all about classification. If someone hands me a new game and says "check out my roguelike!" and it is an rpg, I'm going to be pretty disappointed. You shouldn't call a red apple green because it will give people the wrong expectations. Krice may be a bit crazy, but he preaches the truth here. Take a roguelike and remove permadeath and you do indeed have a turn-based rpg. If people were getting boxed in by genre classifications then I would say it is a dangerous thing, but even a very shallow glance at the current state of roguelike development shows that this is not even remotely the case. Things are blooming and expanding in all directions.
P.S. Calling terminals dumb makes you look pretty asinine. This forum is heavy in computer scientists you know ;)
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There's nothing at all wrong with a turnbased RPG either. Nothing at all. It's a different experience though, all about character building and/or story. Not about learning and dying. I like them both quite a bit. I especially liked Diablo and the various clones of that game, action RPG. Played on Hardcore it nearly scratches the roguelike itch...nearly...
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P.S. Calling terminals dumb makes you look pretty asinine. This forum is heavy in computer scientists you know
Computer scientists who don't know what a dumb terminal is? I better watch out.
Here, let me Google that for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_terminal#Dumb_terminal
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Why are people so afraid of genres? Genres are all about classification. If someone hands me a new game and says "check out my roguelike!" and it is an rpg, I'm going to be pretty disappointed. You shouldn't call a red apple green because it will give people the wrong expectations. Krice may be a bit crazy, but he preaches the truth here. Take a roguelike and remove permadeath and you do indeed have a turn-based rpg. If people were getting boxed in by genre classifications then I would say it is a dangerous thing, but even a very shallow glance at the current state of roguelike development shows that this is not even remotely the case. Things are blooming and expanding in all directions.
There's nothing at all wrong with a turnbased RPG either. Nothing at all. It's a different experience though, all about character building and/or story. Not about learning and dying.
I'm amazed by what's being suggested here. So if, for example, someone created a nethack variant in which some obscure and difficult procedure existed that would allow one to resurrect ghosts of dead characters encountered in the dungeon and play those characters through some player selection screen or the like, the addition of that feature would destroy the roguelike character of that nethack variant. It would now be a turn-based rpg, which wouldn't be so bad, after all, what with all the character building and/or story.
What if the feature was undocumented and no one found out about it for years? Would it cease to be a roguelike when the discovery was publicized? Or would there be outcry from the community of faithful players duped into years of inauthentic pseudo-roguelike play? What if there's a similar undocumented, undiscovered feature in ADOM? Would you be disappointed?
When you read the extreme positions people take about what is and is not a roguelike, it's impossible to escape the conclusion that people are being boxed in.
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P.S. Calling terminals dumb makes you look pretty asinine. This forum is heavy in computer scientists you know
Computer scientists who don't know what a dumb terminal is? I better watch out.
Here, let me Google that for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_terminal#Dumb_terminal
Geek who doesn't get simple word play (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pun), huh? Yeah, you probably should.
As always,
Minotauros
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I'm amazed by what's being suggested here. So if, for example, someone created a nethack variant in which some obscure and difficult procedure existed that would allow one to resurrect ghosts of dead characters encountered in the dungeon and play those characters through some player selection screen or the like, the addition of that feature would destroy the roguelike character of that nethack variant. It would now be a turn-based rpg, which wouldn't be so bad, after all, what with all the character building and/or story.
What if the feature was undocumented and no one found out about it for years? Would it cease to be a roguelike when the discovery was publicized? Or would there be outcry from the community of faithful players duped into years of inauthentic pseudo-roguelike play? What if there's a similar undocumented, undiscovered feature in ADOM? Would you be disappointed?
When you read the extreme positions people take about what is and is not a roguelike, it's impossible to escape the conclusion that people are being boxed in.
Wow look at the feisty new guy. I'll play...
1. Maybe
2. Maybe
3. Wouldn't matter.
4. Probably not.
5. More like laughter, maybe some outcry from people that take things far too serious. Do you?
6. Wouldn't care, it'd be neat to find though.
7. Agreed.
EDIT: I guess I should point out we're not so much a flame and argue forum. I have been known to be bated into it, as I am here. Krice has been known to start it with maybe Req' playing along. The majority of people will ignore you though. Just FYI.
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Man, trying to draw a line in the sand to say what is and isn't a "real" roguelike is silly. Roguelike game design tends to be extremely different from other genres in several significant ways. It's a big genre. It's diverse.
We can all agree that ADOM is a roguelike and Super Mario Bros is not, but for borderline cases like ToME in explorer mode, PrincessRL, Toejam and Earl, or mushroom patch's hypothetical Nethack variant, everyone is going to have their own interpretations of what does and doesn't count.
A better idea is to come up with a scoring system based on criteria like this (http://www.roguetemple.com/roguelike-definition/). Otherwise we're really just arguing about our own personal definitions of the term and the discussion goes nowhere.
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Here is my concern, and the reason why I like to discuss this: I don't want a future where we come on here and find borderlands 3 threads in the major roguelikes board :P
A better idea is to come up with a scoring system based on criteria like this. Otherwise we're really just arguing about our own personal definitions of the term and the discussion goes nowhere.
I think we need to make a community graph that has one axis as roguelike <-> puzzle and another axis as roguelike <-> rpg and then evaluate games on their position on said graph. Then maybe angband is a (0,0) and someone can say "New (5,1) roguelike" and people would know that it is a bit more puzzly :P
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Tell ya what. When the Borderlands/Diablo crowd invades I'll be right with you.
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In all honesty, I think Jo has said the main feature of a roguelike in the past. Permadeath isn't important, it's the fact that you have to learn from your mistakes, and that the player them self must learn new skills to beat the game. If you can beat the game first try, it isn't a very good roguelike. If it takes them a couple dozen tries, and the game has the content to make it continue being fun, that would be a good roguelike.
I'd say a good example would be a roguelike with multiple dungeons. If you die, you are sent back to town and have to restart the dungeon, and hopefully you've learned what caused you to die the first time down so you can avoid it the next time.
Also, I still laugh whenever people say Rogue isn't roguelike... That's like saying Diablo isn't diablolike, or Linux isn't *nix.
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Don't get me wrong, there is still a lot of fun to be had with games like that. Its just not as fun when you realize that you just lost all those hours of time spent. The reason why it isn't fun for me, is that I am the type of person that will probably make the same mistakes over and over again. If it was real time roguelike with permadeath, I probably won't make the mistakes. With turn based permadeath-the chances of me finishing one of those games is slim to none.
I still agree with you guys on what is and isn't a rogue like, but just wish that I could get better at those games. Probably won't :(
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In all honesty, I think Jo has said the main feature of a roguelike in the past. Permadeath isn't important, it's the fact that you have to learn from your mistakes, and that the player them self must learn new skills to beat the game. If you can beat the game first try, it isn't a very good roguelike. If it takes them a couple dozen tries, and the game has the content to make it continue being fun, that would be a good roguelike.
I don't disagree with this, but I personally haven't played a game without permadeath where I felt the same effect as a typical roguelike with permadeath. Take Dark Souls, which I thoroughly enjoyed, where death carries a heavy punishment and the need to learn is strongly enforced (similar to your death in a dungeon returning you to town idea). I'd say it just doesn't have the same impact as permadeath in a roguelike.
Also, I still laugh whenever people say Rogue isn't roguelike... That's like saying Diablo isn't diablolike, or Linux isn't *nix.
The idea isn't that rogue is not a roguelike, but that the definition of a roguelike does not mean "like rogue". The roguelike genre is defined by the first games that someone would point to and call roguelikes, such as angband and nethack (or whatever their predecessors were). I.E. a lot of factors that people might list that give roguelike points are things that weren't even in rogue.
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Don't get me wrong, there is still a lot of fun to be had with games like that. Its just not as fun when you realize that you just lost all those hours of time spent. The reason why it isn't fun for me, is that I am the type of person that will probably make the same mistakes over and over again. If it was real time roguelike with permadeath, I probably won't make the mistakes. With turn based permadeath-the chances of me finishing one of those games is slim to none.
I still agree with you guys on what is and isn't a rogue like, but just wish that I could get better at those games. Probably won't :(
I don't like it when a roguelike takes hours to complete. I really don't. I like lots of content making the game super variable, but I hate losing those hours.
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The hours weren't lost. Most RPGs are about improving your character, but roguelikes are about improving yourself as a player. As long as you learned something, you've made progress.
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Yeah...I just like my flesh ripped off in little strips...you know? ;)
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I don't see how the hours are any less "lost" if you managed to beat the game. You're still wasting time on a computer game. Learn to have fun and not get caught up in imaginary achievements ;)
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I don't see how the hours are any less "lost" if you managed to beat the game. You're still wasting time on a computer game. Learn to have fun and not get caught up in imaginary achievements ;)
Good man!
You said it much better than I did!
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Lol. I was just saying that losing a character after less than an hour is 'fun' and makes me want to play again. Losing one after a few hours just makes me want to walk away. Especially if we are playing DiabloIII, and I die due to server lag.
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Lol. I was just saying that losing a character after less than an hour is 'fun' and makes me want to play again. Losing one after a few hours just makes me want to walk away. Especially if we are playing DiabloIII, and I die due to server lag.
Yeah you said it better than how I feel. I played Cardinal Quest with a warrior and its all easy for the first 4 floors and then I died. It was cool though because it took 30-45 minutes. I wouldnt even care if I lost 2 hours. Its just when I lose after I start liking the characters progress and get really far is what causes me to go crazy. 2 and a half to 3 hours into it.
Keep in mind, without the frustrations, Cardinal Quest, Doom the Rlike, and Probably the Pit RL are some of my best roleplaying experiences Ive had, even with the frustration. I feel that I can make my characters more humanistic as if they will succeed. The only thing I dred is that I have never succeeded at a rlike.
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I think this deserves some discussion.
Let's say that I play one game for 6 hours and then die, or I play another game and die after 2 hours three times in a row. The shorter lives have less meaning, since you didn't play the character as long (and you can get back to your location faster). This both lessens the blow of death and also limits the immersion I think (in the sense that the character is just one of many you can burn through in one sitting). In the long game, death feels much sharper but this is perhaps a response to genuinely feeling the loss of that character. For me, I think feeling the real loss is more important to my experience, in terms of the type of feeling I want to get from roguelikes. Shorter lives can certainly be enjoyable too, although I think having large variability on the short experience becomes much more important in such cases. It is also important in both cases that the game maintains a quality experience, i.e. no one wants to play 4 hours of boring dungeons and then get 1-shot killed by a megabeast you didn't know existed.
There are of course other important factors, such as real life time constraints, but I'm curious what the reasons are for everyone's preferences on short or long character lives.
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I personally come from a lot of online and console RPGs, anything I played with permadeath was short "coffeebreak" style games. Otherwise, I wanted to keep and build on a character, if it died I would adjust it to fix it's problem. I can't do that with permadeath :) It's part of why I don't like TOME4 as a roguelike, it feels more like a standard RPG, and was balanced that way. (for it's multiple lives system) Angband is another good example of a long roguelike, I love the game, one of my favourite of roguelikes, but to me it feels more like an RPG/dungeon crawler than a roguelike, because of that length. In my opinion, Angband would benefit from having a save point in town for this reason.
But I guess that all is my bias, to me roguelikes are fun little side games, not full out games I would spend huge amounts of time playing at once.
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I much prefer ToME and Dredmor on permadeath mode. If I play with extra lives I get lazy and have less fun. The whole tension just disappears from the game.
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I used to play Angband with the cheat death option on. It was good for learning the game, but much less fun. The tension is lost, and there's no motivation to play well - on death, you lose no more than the items on the current dungeon level. So rather than detecting+evading monsters, sneaking around for items, and considering risk/reward ratios, you just grind for levels and items and take deaths as they come. (And try not to get your stats scrambled or your gear disenchanted)
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Don't know any like dredmor that do it, but the old ad&d Forgotten Realms: Dungeon Hack is an old first person roguelike which features saving/loading. If I recall correctly anyways. Pretty sure it allowed you to save/load whenever you wanted.
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I remember those games, like Eye of the Beholder and stuff, right? My brother used to love those early computer RPGS. Some of them are on the NES too.
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Yup. The Raven loft ones were my favorite. Replaying through Eye of the Beholder two at the moment. That's why I remembered Dungeon Hack. It's like EOB but with a single character and random dungeons, potions, scrolls, loot, etc.