Temple of The Roguelike Forums

Development => Incubator => Topic started by: Z on July 05, 2012, 07:10:00 PM

Title: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on July 05, 2012, 07:10:00 PM

Hello!

Hydra Slayer joins the Roguelike Bundle!

You can download Version 13.1 (http://www.roguetemple.com/z/hydra.php), and read the detailed changelog on the blog (http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2012/07/hydra-slayer-131.html).

The biggest change is that NotEye is now integrated, which makes it look much more professional IMO. Other additions include a tutorial to show the new players what the game is about, music from Rogue Bard, achievements, and three new artifact weapons.

As a member of Roguelike Incubator, Hydra Slayer would like some feedback.

Are there any things which could turn new players away?

Maybe ingame texts could be improved? (I am hoping for Darren, since he writes text for ToME and other games)

The Android version did not get an update yet, but if you have any ideas about how to make it more accessible, then they could be helpful. (It also has a "social" version which uses some third party services for achievements, global highscores and sharing, but it seems just a few people have played it successfully)

Controversial ideas: I think it could be cool to change the theme to Greek mythology instead of generic fantasy, but it has already too many things which I have no idea how to fit into Greek mythology, so probably not. I think that the new Auto-attack cheat is interesting, as it allows experienced characters to concentrate on accumulating the best possible equipment without having to solve each battle (for others it probably causes more harm than help). I think it is a reasonable way of playing the game, but it counts as cheating, so highscores thus obtained won't be recorded.

Good luck!

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Darren Grey on July 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM

Welcome to the Incubator! I look forward to giving this a roll this weekend. And I'll be happy to help with text revision.

Giving it a Greek mythology theme is a brilliant idea I think, and might not be too hard with some inventiveness. Some things like the halflings might make more sense with something from Ancient Greece.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on July 06, 2012, 12:29:50 AM

Thanks! Maybe you are right that Greek retheming is not impossible. Things that I have problems with are: races (human/naga/troll/elf/halfling, I had an idea they could be replaced by choosing one of the Greek heroes as your ancestor, but I have no clear ideas for some of them), ettins (I do not know any two-headed humanoid in Greek mythology), scrolls and runes (probably could be replaced with prayers to Greek gods or something, but I don't know how to explain it reasonably yet). Vampire hydras, rare artifact names, alien hydras, and three-headed monkeys should not be a problem.

I have found that I did not test one thing: targetting signs were not displayed, I have replaced the zip file (this just changes "ontarget" to "target" in line 148 of hydra.noe).

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Darren Grey on July 06, 2012, 12:52:55 AM

Ettins are fine to leave in, I think - it doesn't have to be 100% consistent.  Also heros is a bit boring for the race, it's more fun to visualise something physically different, and there are plenty of Greek mythological races to choose from.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Ancient on July 06, 2012, 08:03:51 AM

Naga - echidna. Explain that PCs are Echidna's daughters but are called the same.
Troll - titan.
Elf - maybe centaur?
Ettin - assume intelligent beasts can use weapons and then amphisbaena vaguely fits. Geryon had three heads so maybe geryonspawn.

Scrolls - how they don't fit?
Runes - vases with magical powders?

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on July 06, 2012, 09:35:34 AM

Wow, thanks Ancient! It seems I did not remember the Greek mythology well enough. I think echidna, titan, centaur, and geryonspawn are OK. Amphisbaena would be a nice monster to have, but they don't look able to use weapons...

Magical powders are a nice idea, yes. Yes, scrolls are probably OK, but it would be nice to replace them with something less overused...

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on July 06, 2012, 02:15:28 PM

I have updated the theme, mostly based on the suggestions by Ancient. Centaurs do not correspond exactly to Elves, but I think this is not a problem, since Elves did not make much sense (they had fencing and archery, but with archery there was no much reason to use fencing) and I think they were a bit overpowered anyway (once you know how to play). So Centaurs get only archery, maybe there will be another powerswipe-oriented race in the future.

Ettins are now called simply two-headed giants (and the description mentions that they are children of Geryon). Also fixed some other things. See the blog (http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2012/07/hydra-slayer-132.html) for the list of changes.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Ancient on July 10, 2012, 02:01:36 PM

Sorry for dumping all the feedback into one giant post. I have been putting notes into a file and meaning to post it on the weekend but instead kept switching back and forth between programming and playing. All this slowly accumulated.

I downloaded 13.2 and unzipped it. Large amount of files have senseless execution permissions. Then I perused the readme and tried to compile console version. I thought unfied executable meant one executable. Starting hydra --ascii would run the console version and running the executable without parameters would invoke Necklace of the Eye.

In file included from hydra.cpp:187:0:
level.cpp: In function ‘void dfs(int, bool)’:
level.cpp:239:24: warning: converting ‘false’ to pointer type ‘hydra*’ [-Wconversion-null]
In file included from hydra.cpp:1053:0:
save.cpp: In function ‘void deleteGame(const char*)’:
save.cpp:30:57: error: ‘unlink’ was not declared in this scope
make: *** [hydra] Błąd 1

Editing save.cpp to stick #include <unistd.h> in else clause of #ifdef MINGW allowed me to compile it.

Runs nicely. Tried hex geometry for a change. Reached ancient hydra as a human and died there to not watching health. In hex mode greater hydras are displayed in excellent way but I sometimes mistake tiles that go away from a hydra with tiles that are adjacent. All those mistakes piled up cost me around fifty wounds. Probably I am not used to hex. Yet.


You may ask why I did not play graphical version. I was put off by troubles in compilation. First, my lua headers are not in "lua5.1" directory. They are just in /usr/include/ which changes #include <lua5.1/lua.h> to just #include <lua.h>. This allowed me to progress further but not much further. Error list below. I am using gcc 4.7.0 14-04-2012. After deleting -Werror compilation finishes.

http://pastie.org/private/ubedldbkviexgchhucvhbw

• Start screen: is it neccessary to highlight both 't's in Titan? Looks weird.
• Wouldn't it sound better if in centaur race description the phrase "their horse bodies" was replaced with "their equine bodies"?
• I liked the reference to amethyst's supposed alchemical qualities in amethyst weapon description.
• When using potion of knowledge when bloody hydra is in sight means no fighting data is given. That should be explained in bloody hydra's description.
• There is missing space after a dot in storm hydra's description.
• Same for Potion of Knowledge.
• Hitting bloody hydra with combination of meteoric weaponry and one elemental sword does not reveal that element's resistances despite I can calculate it easily.
• Menorah adjective (spears) sounds cool but is out of theme.
• Requesting help on scroll of reforging when wand of phase wall is selected causes considerable delay but does not return reforging table.
• "You feel like if you have drunk the Potion of Power Swipe!" would sound better if it started with "You feel as if ...".
• Stunning animation of shadow hydras in ASCII mode does weird things.
• Spears speak of elves which ought to be renamed centaurs by this point.
• Switching to bow often causes loss of a turn.
• In ASCII mode circling asterisks "animate" every keypress.
• Perhaps count unhonorable attacks against shadow hydras too?
• Inventory menu annoys me. I can't remember whether it was like that in older versions but the confirmation question gets on my nerves. Probably its necessary though.
• Power Juice is usually absent from a hydra slayer's inventory creating a hole in item list. Maybe make it the last potion displayed even after Life?
  
  
• Shield bashes in hex mode causes all hell to break loose ...

Before:
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9753/sbashb.png)

After:
(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1483/sbasha.png)

Switching to another weapon at this point toggles the modes. I think it reverted to default if you killed a hydra or something.

• Hydras stepping on a spot where once mushroom was change their display mode. Might be related to screen edge too.

Step 1: Destroy a mushroom and find a live hydra.
(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5513/hmush1.png)

Step 2: Lead the hydra into a spot where mushroom was.
(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3509/hmush2.png)

• When I want to see how my stuff is going to be affected by Scroll of Reforging it takes too many keypresses. Either scroll down and press 'h' or select 'r', answer no and then press 'h'. Four keypresses in second case and disappearance of interface which creates a blinking effect if you type fast. Maybe move Reforging to be first scroll on list so one does not have to scroll down so much?

Finally went back to console with 8-way geometry as Echidna. Gameplay got much, much more familiar and easier.

http://pastebin.com/TiBAEpwR

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on July 11, 2012, 12:06:34 PM

Thanks Ancient! And congratulations for winning, with a very good score... maybe this race is too easy :)

Quote

Hitting bloody hydra with combination of meteoric weaponry and one elemental sword does not reveal that element's resistances despite I can calculate it easily.

Checking whether you can calculate the resistances easily would mean lots of special cases. But I have changed it so that ambidextrous attacks always identify resistances to all weapons used (you know where you cut and how it regrows).

Quote

Menorah adjective (spears) sounds cool but is out of theme.

I think that they are too rare for it to really matter (could not an educated hydra slayer hear a bit about Jewish culture anyway?). It is strange anyway that he uses Arabic numerals, but there is nothing that can be done about that. On the other hand, I think that vampire hydras should be probably renamed to something more Greek, and were-hydras probably should have some explanation.

Quote

Switching to bow often causes loss of a turn.

Under what circumstances? No idea what could cause that...

Quote

Perhaps count unhonorable attacks against shadow hydras too?

Then it would be probably nice to count them against all other special hydras...

Quote

Inventory menu annoys me. I can't remember whether it was like that in older versions but the confirmation question gets on my nerves. Probably its necessary though.

It was different in earlier versions, but confirmations were added after Legend's request (IIRC). I have redesigned the inventory, so it should be OK for everyone now. (Although I think that Titans are currently unable to see the reforging table, will have to fix it later)

Other things have been simply fixed, hopefully. Changelog (http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2012/07/noteye-52-and-hydra-slayer-133.html)

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Ancient on July 13, 2012, 09:59:18 PM

Thank you! Yes, Echidna are definitely the easiest race since the nerf of elves/centaurs. Back then those long-ears may have been better. Titans also trash hydras when they find the club.

I'll let out a small secret. I am playing with GNU Prolog interpreter open in another terminal. By the time big hydras appear I enter query "hydra_head_count mod all-divisors_sizes_multiplied" and instantly know how many heads I have to cut to prepare for the big hit. Of course I factor whatever divisors I am able to use immediately. After defeating ancient hydra I usually lost some health when there were small to medium sized hydras but healed almost to full when meeting the multi-headed giants.

Also, I have been taking advantage of minor oddity. Sometimes you are executing an ambidextrous attack and want to know resulting number of heads of a swing with a single weapon but are too lazy to do subtraction of weapon size from regrow number. To have HS do it for you select a hand you do not have yet. It will complain but behave as if two weapons were selected. Attacking is handled correctly.

Vampire hydras could be renamed to vulture hydras. That would allude to the vulture that ate Prometeus' liver every morning. Drop some lines that the vulture grew a head every time it feasted thus spawning the vulture hydras variety. Heracles came and kicked the vulture's ass but not before it managed to have offspring.

I like the name of Powder of Decapitation but recently had the idea it could be renamed to Obolus coin. The coin you put into dead person's mouth so that they have means to pay Charon for ferrying them across river Styx. Magical Obolus would trick Charon into taking life from hydra heads away prematurely and killing them in the process.


I will try to formulate steps to lose a turn to bow switching consistently. Or at least semi-consistently.

A pity -N --ascii still needs X windows. Are there plans to lift this requirement in near future?

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on July 15, 2012, 07:54:15 PM

I have nerfed the Echidna daughters a bit (they no longer can read scrolls ambidextrously for free), although I think this would not affect you (I see you did not abuse this).

I have renamed vampire hydras as you suggest. I like the current name "Powder of Decapitation" more, but I have added something about Charon in the description. Thanks!

Lifting the X requirement turned out easier than I thought.

And lots of changes to NotEye. Changelog (http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2012/07/noteye-53-and-hydra-slayer-134.html)

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: kraflab on July 15, 2012, 11:53:22 PM

This game is pretty cool.

I like the music.

This is one of the few very puzzly roguelikes that I would still consider very strongly to be a roguelike.

It defaulted to 4-way movement, while I think 8-way might be best.  Or is it meant to be 4-way?  I wasn't sure if I just didn't know how to move diagonally since sight seemed to be 8-way (you can see through walls diagonally).  I think this type of sight should be removed since at best it is nonsensical.  I accept it in 8-way since you generally can move "thru" wall corners diagonally, but in 4-way it just seems out of place.

I had another confusion with sight: http://pastebin.com/fpw0HcUE

I have a view past the mushrooms in the second frame, even though my view should be significantly more obscured than the previous straight line of sight I should have had.  Again, I imagine this is some artifact coming from 8-way line of sight, but it is unintuitive to me.

You are able to pick up items while dead, which isn't really a problem but should nonetheless be taken out.

There should be some kind of visual queue or alert when you die, because it seemed like nothing really happened for me :P

I tend to not pay attention to my own health, so maybe a reddening of the screen or some warning noise would help with that, although it is certainly my own fault.

In the description of mushroom spores, it says "found an use in the dungeons" which I believe should be "found a use in the dungeons".  Idk if that is a cultural thing, but where I live at least you don't put an for use.

I found the game got a bit tedious with weapon micromanagement getting in the way to some extent, and I died in a situation where I came onto a floor and had no weapons capable of dealing with the hydras that spawned around me.  I probably could have used some items to deal with that though, but again I didn't want to deal with all the micromanagement.  That shouldn't really be taken as a negative thing though, that's what the game is really :P Just not particularly my cup of tea.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on July 16, 2012, 03:36:31 AM

Thanks! Music comes from Rogue Bard, and this site contains music that can be used by every roguelike that is sufficiently free :) I would prefer to use something of my own, but I am not sure if I could compose anything better ;)

Movement is 4-directional by default, in order to help the new players. Also the tutorial automatically switches to 4-directional (maybe this is unclear, since it lets the user make a choice and then silently ignores it). But roguelike veterans with a full keyboard or VI skills will probably prefer 8-directional :)

About your example with mushrooms, I do not think this is unintuitive - the mushrooms probably are not centered in their grids, so in the first case they are able to hide everything beyond them, and in the second case there is a gap. Of course the game does not model it that way, and the view is simply obscured when there are two mushrooms on the line (which can go diagonally). So I think that looking through corners is the only problem, like in this situation:

Code: [Select]

@.##
..##
##..
##..

My interpretation of this situation is that in fact there is a very small gap between the two walls, so you can look through it, but not move through it. That's why the same LOS algorithm is used as with 8-directional sight. I think it is a bit interesting that you can see something but not move there. But maybe you are right (the graphics currently do not agree with this interpretation, especially in the FPP mode).

"An use" is a typo.

I'll try to redden a part of the screen when the character dies.

If you do not like having to manage weapons in every fight, you can turn on the "auto-attack" cheat. This is listed as a cheat and disables high scores, but I still think this is a reasonable way of playing (it solves the basic fights for you, allowing you to concentrate on harder things like determining when to use items, and composing efficient sets of weapon; probably it is more dangerous than helpful if you do not understand the game well enough).

Thanks!

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on July 19, 2012, 01:25:00 AM

A new update (13.5)!

Right-click on map for information, things mentioned by kraflab, and some minor things. And on NotEye's side, improved the integration feature.

See the changelog. (http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2012/07/noteye-54-and-hydra-slayer-135.html)

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on July 20, 2012, 02:50:00 PM

(http://roguetemple.com/z/animatedhydras.gif)

Let's try procedurally generated hydra animations. IMHO look better than the stupid animations in Dungeons of Dredmor, for example. Changelog 13.6 (http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2012/07/hydra-slayer-136-and-noteye-55.html)

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: kraflab on July 21, 2012, 01:04:23 AM

I really like the fire hydra's animation.

Sometimes the heads overlap and it's unclear if for instance it is a 3-headed or 2-headed hydra early on.  Of course, the numbers are in the hud so it doesn't matter particularly much.

At first I thought I was going to be against the animation in general, but I think it really works out well here.

The red text change near death works great and caught my eye immediately.

Just a flavor thing, perhaps you can have a specific song that plays upon death.

I was thinking it would be nice if there was a key that instantly takes you to the next level once all the hydra are dead, such as '>', since as far as I can tell there is no way to die from the dungeon when there are no hydras around.  You could just add "press > to move to the next floor" or something like that.  I guess it depends if you want to break the immersion of needing to walk to the staircase.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on July 22, 2012, 03:49:49 PM

Thanks!

Good idea about death music, will do it later.

Auto-explore ('o') does move to the stairs. Although it explores the level first and picks up any remaining items first. Is there any reason to ignore that and just move to the stairs? Or to say about this whenever a floor is completed (or just occassionally)? Previously it had problems dealing with mushrooms, so now, it removes them automatically if all hydras are defeated.

Technically you can get killed after all the hydras all killed, although that's quite hard to do (well, with Twins this is easy).

Changelog 13.7 (http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2012/07/hydra-slayer-137-and-noteye-56.html) Unless something is wrong, the is supposed to be the last version, for now.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Ancient on July 22, 2012, 08:56:29 PM

Quote from: Z on July 22, 2012, 03:49:49 PM

Technically you can get killed after all the hydras all killed, although that's quite hard to do (well, with Twins this is easy).

You may laugh, but I got reckless once after eradicating all hydras on a toroidal level and stuck some arrows in my back due to a typo... did not kill me but still kinda lame losing health like that.

Quote from: Z on July 22, 2012, 03:49:49 PM

Unless something is wrong, the is supposed to be the last version, for now.

I did not manage to reproduce lose turn on bow switch bug in recent versions. Either it does not appear when I am specifically looking for it or (hopefully) it was some kind of a delusion.

Oh, I love hydra animations. Really neat!

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Ancient on July 27, 2012, 08:21:05 PM

The thread is about Hydra Slayer but I think feedback about NotEye is useful too.

The sample game is step in right direction but the lua part could use some comments. I figured out how to merge tiles and how to make external functions available in .noe configuration files. Still, without reading generic-tile.noe I would be at a loss.

Some random comments:

• It is not obvious that xtileaux2 is meant to be written.
• Arguments to xtileaux2 could use explaining. I guessed half immediately but had to think hard what the rest does.
• I would like to be warned that overriding xtile and using floorcol or wallcol requires you to define global_uu or nil argument will be passed to tilerecolor ending program.
• Advice to use ssMon / ssItem / ssFloor instead of sums of spFlat, spFloor, etc. would save me some time.
• Defining NOAUDIO before inclusion of noteye.h stops compilation because MixMusic is not defined. Adding the missing typedef solves the problem.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on July 30, 2012, 02:35:55 AM

Yes, I know that NotEye is heavily lacking comments and other documentation. NotEye is still in development, and I care more about new features than about documentation.

In most cases it is best to override xtileaux2 (as most included games do), as it correctly initializes the framework in generic-tile.noe (so floorcol and wallcol will work). Probably I should change the naming, "xtileaux2" sucks.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Ancient on August 09, 2012, 03:47:49 PM

In 13.7 I can't seem to use numpad to control Hydra Slayer so matter what I try.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on August 09, 2012, 05:27:07 PM

Strange... works for me. I know that ADOM movement is broken in NotEye 5.7, but this bug is unrelated.

Do arrow keys work? A sanity check: aren't you trying to move diagonally in 4-dir move?

Are you playing the graphical version or the Curses version? I think that NotEye does not support numpad in the Curses mode, so that might be the problem.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Ancient on August 09, 2012, 08:43:57 PM

Yes, arrows are handled well. 8-way. Numlock is off.

Moving north west moves east instead.
Moving south west moves west instead.
Everything else works.

The problem is both in Curses and graphical versions.

Maybe I screwed up something in the config file. Will redownload and recompile.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: kraflab on August 11, 2012, 11:09:32 AM

Just fyi, 8-way numpad works fine for me as well with the current version.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on August 16, 2012, 01:46:17 PM

No idea about the directions, but NotEye 5.8 (http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2012/08/noteye-58-and-adom-news-and-hydra.html) is released. I have fixed the NOAUDIO problem, but no new documentation.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Ancient on August 22, 2012, 05:32:19 AM

Hello and thanks for NotEye 5.8. Some nice touches there. By the way, the link in your post leads astray.

To solve direction problem add "C(HOME) C(END)" to curses_to_sdl table in consout.cpp.

Feature request: please make noteye_erase, noteye_addch, noteye_clrtoeol and noteye_move depend on actual console dimensions. Hardcoded values prevented me from writing to lowermost log line and gave me quite a head scratcher because I was looking for the cause on my side.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on August 22, 2012, 03:08:50 PM

Thanks! I think I have copied these functions from Hydra Slayer from Android, and they were hardcoded because it wanted only 80x25, and forgot about that. I will fix it later (I assume that you have fixed it for yourself for now).

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Ancient on August 29, 2012, 04:57:45 AM

I have a question about NotEye. My lua code causes it to display tiles without transparency in FPP, mini tiles and double mini tiles mode but everything works as expected in tiles and isometric mode.

Here is code snippet:

function xtile (C, x, y)
  if C == 0 then return outofscreen end
  local M = map_contents(x, y)
  if M.usecache then return readcache (x, y) end

  local tile = tilespatial (tilefill (0), ssFloor) -- totally black
  if M.flx then tile = tilemerge (tile, tilespatial (tileat (M.flx, M.fly), ssFloor + spCeil))
  elseif M.wlx then tile = tilespatial (tileat (M.wlx, M.wly), ssWall)
    end
  if M.ftx then tile = tilemerge(tile, tilespatial(tileat (M.ftx, M.fty), ssFloorv)) end
  if M.itx then tile = tilemerge(tile, tilespatial(tileat (M.itx, M.ity), ssItem)) end
  if M.crx then tile = tilemerge(tile, tilespatial(tileat (M.crx, M.cry), ssMon)) end
  writecache (x, y, tile)
  return tile
  end

Any ideas?

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on August 29, 2012, 12:55:11 PM

I suppose that it is some bug in NotEye... IIRC NotEye uses SDL's blit function when scaling is not required, and does it on its own when scaling. Maybe SDL does as expected and scaling does not, and that's why tiles work and mini-tiles do not (they are implemented in a very similar way).

Maybe you could try giving the alpha value to your transparency key? Try 0xFFrrggbb instead of 0xrrggbb (or grab the value directly with getpixel).

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Darren Grey on August 30, 2012, 09:45:17 AM

I must admit, I have tried many times over the past couple of years to get into Hydra Slayer and failed.  I'm not sure why, since I think the base gameplay is very cool.  I guess part of it is my many attempts to try the Android version, which has some basic interface problems.

But the look of the game is also a bit of a thing for me.  Too many garish colours, especially those horrible magentas and cyans.  With the NotEye integration can you not now choose a better palette?

The starting screen is too messy too, in my opinion.  I'd appreciate something cleaner, with a separate help screen for all the extra info, a bit like ADOM's start menu.  The various options presented with their keyboard commands highlighted look untidy and should be split into a game options screen.

The racial descriptions are longer than they need to be, or at least could have a little summary of the key traits at the start.  For instance:

Human
 * No special strengths
 * No special weaknesses
 * More versatile overall

Titan
 * Hits with both weapons at once
 * Half regular speed
 * Cannot carry items between levels

Centaur
 * More skilled with bows
 * Cannot do sweeping attacks

As much as I normally prefer ASCII, the animated tiles are now more functional in many ways.  Seeing flames on a fire hydra and linking that to your flaming sword is much clearer than trying to match colours.  The tiles themselves... meh, though I like the hydras.  I think the main character tiles could use a bit of touching up (maybe with a more cartoony style?), and scrolls should be a lighter colour to stand out.  I'm not big on the dark floor tiles either.

A tutorial would likely help new players.  Not sure if you have the time, but a simple set dungeon with a couple of hydra types and weapons to pick up and scrolls to use would really boost the game's accessibility.

Death is a little poorly managed at the moment.  The game should properly pause and change to another mode, with perhaps a simple menu offering "1. Character dump, 2. Restart human, 3. Restart titan, 4. Restart twins, 5. Restart centaur, 6. Exit game".

For the Android version a touchscreen HUD would be hugely appreciated.  Having to go into the menu to pick up items and perform other common actions is very cumbersome.

As for general gameplay, it's balanced, fun, engaging, challenging and unique.  I'm not very good at it, I think partly because it does require such concentration and too often I play when tired.  I'd maybe appreciate smaller levels and smaller FOV.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Ancient on August 30, 2012, 10:13:51 AM

Quote from: Z on August 29, 2012, 12:55:11 PM

Maybe you could try giving the alpha value to your transparency key? Try 0xFFrrggbb instead of 0xrrggbb (or grab the value directly with getpixel).

Thank you, that worked! First tried adding alpha value but finally settled on getpixel to take care of that for me.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: kraflab on August 30, 2012, 10:59:35 AM

Quote from: Darren Grey on August 30, 2012, 09:45:17 AM

But the look of the game is also a bit of a thing for me.  Too many garish colours, especially those horrible magentas and cyans.  With the NotEye integration can you not now choose a better palette?

Hehehe, I can't wait for you to try epilogue if you have a problem with Z's color scheme ;)  Cyan and magenta are where it's at!

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Darren Grey on August 30, 2012, 11:50:54 AM

If it's a console game I can understand (well, within reason).  When you remove the console limitations then it behoves you to find some decent colours.  Jeff Lait's recent roguelikes are a great example of good colour choices with restricted palettes.  And even ADOM is a good example of how to look nice even with the 16 colour limitation.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on August 30, 2012, 01:02:35 PM

OK... thanks for the constructive criticism, I have seen people critique some things about the graphics, but I did not know what exactly. I will try to split the pre-game menu into several screens.

The tutorial is already done (press L from the main menu).

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on August 30, 2012, 01:17:56 PM

Quote from: Ancient on August 30, 2012, 10:13:51 AM

Thank you, that worked! First tried adding alpha value but finally settled on getpixel to take care of that for me.

OK, great! It seems that SDL blit checks only RGB to recognize transparent color, while IMO it is more logical to check Alpha too. I will probably match SDL's standard, then.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Darren Grey on August 30, 2012, 04:21:57 PM

Another little point - the game directory contains 2 exe files, with no direction from the read me on which to run. The readme in general is lacking on basic details.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Ancient on September 01, 2012, 11:43:09 AM

A request for future NotEye versions: please expose retBool function. Also, it would be great if you supported mvaddch and mvaddstr. These are very common and simple NCurses calls. I wrote them for myself but found noteye_curses.h to be best places to declare them.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on September 01, 2012, 12:22:23 PM

Hydra Slayer 13.9 + NotEye 5.9 (http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2012/09/exciting-times.html)

I have changed colors to (hopefully) more tasteful. It is hard to completely avoid cyans and magentas, though: when I try, the colors become too similar.

I have made the Human description concise, and I assume that players who know the game well enough to try other races will have nothing against reading the current descriptions.

I like how the world is still running after the PC dies. However, I have made the game return to the main menu when the PC dies (just as if you pressed Quit), but you can return to the game to look at your body if you wish. I have also added an achievement for being resurrected after death (which is very hard to do, but I think I see a way how it could be possible).

Ancient: too late for NotEye 5.9...

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on September 13, 2012, 02:32:41 PM

Any feedback about the recent changes? I need to know what to improve for ARRP...

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Darren Grey on September 13, 2012, 02:38:22 PM

When do you need feedback by?  I'm tied up tonight, but can give some constructive feedback tomorrow night.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on September 13, 2012, 04:34:34 PM

I am quite free tomorrow (Sep 14) and quite busy the next day. But hopefully I will be able to make some changes...

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: kraflab on September 13, 2012, 05:18:28 PM

This has been a busy week for me, but i'll try to get in some playtime tonight or tomorrow

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: kraflab on September 16, 2012, 10:26:36 PM

OK, finally found some time to look at the game.

I don't have particularly a lot to say, but I do like the new tile color scheme.  I think it looks nice.

Another thing I thought would be nice would be to replace the normal looking player with a corpse when they die.  That would probably be the best visual feedback on that event.  I like the fact that the game "keeps going" even after the player dies, but when it still looks like they are standing there it seems a little odd.

One game I started gave me no weapons to damage any of the hydras nearby.  There were enough of them that using items wouldn't allow me to survive.  I had to spend a lot of time dancing around the room until I got space to move elsewhere.  It would be nice if you at least did a check to make sure you have the tools necessary to kill hydras you start near to, although really they probably just shouldn't spawn so close.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on September 17, 2012, 06:19:38 AM

You are right about the corpse!

About starting too close to unkillable hydras... I think that such a situation is very rare, and you can simply leave the dungeon and enter as a new character. By making sure that unkillable hydras do not spawn too close, we would also lose situations which look difficult but are in fact winnable, and it's situations like this which make roguelikes interesting.

Although maybe a challenging/impossible first level could drive some newbies away? Maybe adding some hints about the first level to the tutorial could be helpful.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: kraflab on September 17, 2012, 06:29:37 AM

Quote from: Z on September 17, 2012, 06:19:38 AM

Although maybe a challenging/impossible first level could drive some newbies away? Maybe adding some hints about the first level to the tutorial could be helpful.

That was my concern.  If that was a first experience it would be pretty discouraging.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Ancient on September 18, 2012, 11:54:23 PM

Make the slayer's corpse lack a head! That would be hydras' sweet revenge. :-p

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on October 15, 2012, 02:14:33 PM

(http://roguetemple.com/z/shots/hydroid-new.png)

I have worked a bit on the Android version. Due to the inclusion of the Tutorial and some text, it should have become a bit easier to understand, although I have not really changed much (touching the top right part of the screen and choosing from the menu is convenient enough for me). I have also found some major bugs in Hydra Slayer 13.9, so it seems that there was not enough playtesting recently :) I am still waiting for Darren's feedback on the improved graphics.

See more details about Hydra Slayer 14.0 + NotEye 6.0 on the blog (http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2012/10/hydra-slayer-version-140-plus-noteye-60.html)

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: kraflab on October 15, 2012, 05:37:31 PM

I believe "machete" is spelled with one 't'

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on October 23, 2012, 07:08:11 AM

Typo fixed and NotEye improvements: http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2012/10/noteye-61-hydra-slayer-141.html

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on December 01, 2012, 07:34:10 PM

The incubator seems dead now, but I have made some changes to NotEye, including the support for OSX, OpenGL, and Brogue (with Oryx tiles).

Screenshots for Brogue:

(http://roguetemple.com/z/shots/brogue-oryx-fpp_t.jpg)(http://roguetemple.com/z/shots/brogue-oryx-iso_t.jpg)(http://roguetemple.com/z/shots/brogue-oryx-med_t.jpg)(http://roguetemple.com/z/shots/brogue-oryx-tiles_t.jpg)

full-size images and full changelog for NotEye 6.2 (http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2012/12/necklace-of-eye-62.html)

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: getter77 on December 01, 2012, 08:02:52 PM

Fantastic, the ADOM Project continues to generate all sorts of benefits I see!   8)

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Darren Grey on December 02, 2012, 02:33:39 AM

Nice!  I hope this gets picked up by players more, it has all sorts of neat features.

Incubator is rather dead...  It needs new blood really.  I think it failed to get a critical mass of developers.  Possibly the whole Bundle idea and the linking with the Incubator was a mistake.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: kraflab on December 02, 2012, 05:05:20 AM

I'm not sure if it's dead: it's just in stasis.  I felt like I got a lot of great feedback from a few people, and haven't made enough substantial changes to Epilogue to warrant further seeking (although it is always appreciated ;)).  I'm surprised there haven't been any new developers showing up though.  Perhaps people either don't realize it exists or aren't sure whether or not they need to be invited to participate.

At any rate, if anyone wants feedback on new features, just drop a post :)

And those noteye images look awesome as always!  ;D

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Xan on December 02, 2012, 06:07:43 AM

I certainly have an in-dev roguelike I would like more feedback on.  However, there are a few reasons I never participated:

1) I was under the impression that there was a strong connection between the Incubator and the bundle, such that one would be working towards having their gaming included.  At least under the conditions for the first bundle, I didn't want to do that.

2) I don't always have a lot of time to work on my own RL, let alone spend a decent amount of time playing others.  So I wasn't sure if I should try to get people to spend time playing mine when I might not be able to put the same effort into theirs.

3) I thought the Incubator was mostly focused on games that are nearing a truly playable state, at least with a somewhat determinate win condition, something I won't have for a while yet.

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on December 16, 2012, 10:08:12 PM

OK, so let's get back on topic:

NotEye 6.3 and Hydra Slayer 14.3 released! (http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2012/12/noteye-63-and-hydra-slayer-143.html)

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on January 10, 2013, 02:20:07 PM

And some bugfixes (thanks to Game Hunter for his videos (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLefBsUqEQ6aFXRU8emEQrdmb8ukE0MqDF)!):

http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2013/01/hydra-slayer-144-noteye-64.html

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on January 20, 2013, 03:13:41 PM

Some more improvements:

http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2013/01/noteye-65-hydra-slayer-145.html

Title: Re: Hydra Slayer
Post by: Z on May 21, 2013, 09:42:06 AM

Just for completeness: Hydra Slayer 15.0 and NotEye 7.0 have been released! (http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2013/05/noteye-70-hydra-slayer-150.html)

This adds some features from the Hydra Slayer thread in the Announcements section, and some useful features for NotEye (palettes, improved fonts, saving config, etc.)