Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Development => Incubator => Topic started by: Darren Grey on June 12, 2012, 12:18:06 AM
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This forum is for projects and games based around the Roguelike Incubator. The Incubator is an area for developers to help each other with feedback and constructive criticism on recent releases, with an aim to produce high quality, polished roguelikes. The focus is on less established games which wish to improve themselves whilst also helping others. Anyone is welcome to give feedback and contribute at any time.
The first cabal of developers will join together to produce a "Roguelike Bundle", to be released as part of the Annual Roguelike Release Party in September. This bundle aims to produce a number of roguelikes of variant size and theme, with a certain hope of being accessible to those outside the genre by having polished interfaces. The tenets of the Roguelike Bundle:
* 100% Free - no commercialisation, all donations go to charity
* 100% Roguelike - intense and challenging games with permadeath and procedural design
* 100% Open - fully open source and cross-platform, with specific support for Win/Mac/Linux
* 100% Accessible - no myriad of keys to learn, these modern roguelikes are pick up and play
To become part of the cabal you must:
* Have a new or in-dev roguelike you wish to improve significantly
* Be dedicated to making new builds at least once a month, taking in guidance from the other members (though you are free to develop as you wish)
* Be dedicated to critically analysing at least one other game each month, with constructive feedback for the other developers
* Have clear development goals and target dates that you publicly state and try to adhere to (and accept advice on - others may disagree on how achievable or advisable your targets are)
The group will work on the premise of mutual assistance, so if you don't pull your weight you'll end up excluded. Similarly it works on mutual image and quality standards - if the game isn't sufficiently polished by the deadline (bug-free, balanced, clean interface) then it won't be included in the bundle, but may become part of a later bundle.
The spreadsheet for the first cabal:
http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ai4woBhgpQ7hdEd3d0JGM3AtdDQ0Nk9vZEJMYnR5LVE
If you wish to join add your name and project to the list, and post a thread in this forum with some details of you, your game, your goals and a download link to the latest build. Keep this thread updated.
This is just the first group, and if you want to set up a different cabal with different goals you are welcome to. I personally envisage multiple complimentary groups forming, with various themes and objectives, but following the same format of relying on mutual advice and support.
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Seems like a great idea, although my project isn't far enough along to join. I'll be sure to enter sometime, maybe for next year's Annual Roguelike Release Party :D
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For what are the dates in the spreadsheet? Intermediate release dates?
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Also joining and hope to have something ready.
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For what are the dates in the spreadsheet? Intermediate release dates?
Playtesting other people's games and giving feedback. I thought weekly dates might be a good encouragement to try and do more than one thing a month.
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Okay. Great :)
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Argh. I was shooting for a release this weekend, but obviously my project is not as far developed as PRIME or LambdaRogue. Could I be part of this nonetheless?
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Yes, of course you can! When the AARP in September is scheduled for the bundle release, you have lots of time, and of course you can still have your own release dates!
The earlier you release, the better, because when you release, we can play and give feedback! :)
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Indeed, multiple releases between now and the deadline is necessary!
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Thanks! Count me in, then. ;D
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OK, so I am considering joining the bundle with Hydra Slayer (http://roguetemple.com/z/hydra.php). But my development goals are not very extensive:
- Unified executable. Currently you have to play via NotEye to get graphics, which is not straightforward for newcomers, and not reliable under Windows. (I have actually done this for myself, but not released)
- Add Steam-style achievements. (This is actually already done in the Android Social version)
- Add a tutorial.
- Add two new artifact weapons. (Not a big thing, but I am planning this anyway)
- And of course consider feedback from other group members (I think I would release the version with the previous points very quickly, and then just wait for feedback).
Is that enough?
My postulates for the Bundle:
- Change the name. Incubator seems too much about early development. And I don't think we could "market" the bundle under this name.
- I think that one review per month is not enough. It means that every game will get one review on average, and some will get more than one and others will get zero. I suggest both increasing the number of obligatory reviews, and using some system which makes sure that everything gets covered.
- Unified controls. Actions common to several games in the bundle should use the same key. Hopefully we will create the new roguelike standard, instead of hjklyubn and quaff. (I am not sure whether we can have unified displays, like using the same font for ASCII games, etc)
- Have people responsible for ports to major platforms (Windows, Linux, OSX; I think we do not aim for Android or iOS in this bundle). I mean, I work, say, on the Linux version only myself (but in a portable way), and there is someone in the group who will compiles everything for OSX.
- Have someone responsible for organizing sounds. No game should be left without a good soundtrack. Possibly also someone responsible for graphics.
- Possibly make them feel more like a bundle. Download them together, and have a launcher from where you can choose one of the games. For example, if every game has achievements, display them centrally (like Steam does AFAIK). Maybe a common online highscore system, but maybe this would be too much.
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OK, so I am considering joining the bundle with Hydra Slayer (http://roguetemple.com/z/hydra.php). But my development goals are not very extensive:
- Unified executable. Currently you have to play via NotEye to get graphics, which is not straightforward for newcomers, and not reliable under Windows. (I have actually done this for myself, but not released)
- Add Steam-style achievements. (This is actually already done in the Android Social version)
- Add a tutorial.
- Add two new artifact weapons. (Not a big thing, but I am planning this anyway)
- And of course consider feedback from other group members (I think I would release the version with the previous points very quickly, and then just wait for feedback).
Is that enough?
"Let's see how it goes" would be my response. I'd like to see Hydra Slayer publicised more :)
My postulates for the Bundle:
- Change the name. Incubator seems too much about early development. And I don't think we could "market" the bundle under this name.
It will be marketed as the "Roguelike Bundle". The Incubator is for this place where we discuss and change - it's the process rather than the project. And I think the maturity of development is irrelevant - even established games can benefit from incubation and rethinking many elements. To be part of the project I think there must be a willingness to change in more ways than just additions.
- I think that one review per month is not enough. It means that every game will get one review on average, and some will get more than one and others will get zero. I suggest both increasing the number of obligatory reviews, and using some system which makes sure that everything gets covered.
Agreed, which is why on the spreadsheet I split it into weekly targets. If we can try to even give minimal interface feedback once a week then that would be of benefit. Everyone should try to play every other game as soon as possible. In term of formalising this I think we'll see how the first few weeks go and then come up with a more rigid structure at the start of July.
- Unified controls. Actions common to several games in the bundle should use the same key. Hopefully we will create the new roguelike standard, instead of hjklyubn and quaff. (I am not sure whether we can have unified displays, like using the same font for ASCII games, etc)
No way! :P This is a bad idea I think. Developers have freedom over their own projects. We can try to encourage standards, but no way of enforcing this.
- Have people responsible for ports to major platforms (Windows, Linux, OSX; I think we do not aim for Android or iOS in this bundle). I mean, I work, say, on the Linux version only myself (but in a portable way), and there is someone in the group who will compiles everything for OSX.
- Have someone responsible for organizing sounds. No game should be left without a good soundtrack. Possibly also someone responsible for graphics.
The site says Win/OSX/Linux as the main supported platforms. Everything else is up to the developer (or dedicated players, since it's all open source). And yeah, one of the benefits of the incubator is help with cross-platform compiling and testing.
Sounds and graphics aren't appropriate for all games, but we can share links and resources and suggest suitable usage of each. Single person responsibilities I'm not so sure about.
- Possibly make them feel more like a bundle. Download them together, and have a launcher from where you can choose one of the games. For example, if every game has achievements, display them centrally (like Steam does AFAIK). Maybe a common online highscore system, but maybe this would be too much.
Hah, ambitious, but I like the idea. Certainly one single download (I'm happy to host). A launcher would be great if someone can code it up. Achievements etc... I haven't clue how to approach that.
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This looks really interesting - I'm not sure I necessarily want to join the Cabal (I'm not sure I could realistically commit to a strict schedule of new releases and in any case the stuff I'm working on at the moment is probably straying too far from the 'standard' roguelike template) but I'm definitely going to keep an eye on this and try to offer feedback if and when I can.
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- Possibly make them feel more like a bundle. Download them together, and have a launcher from where you can choose one of the games. For example, if every game has achievements, display them centrally (like Steam does AFAIK). Maybe a common online highscore system, but maybe this would be too much.
Hah, ambitious, but I like the idea. Certainly one single download (I'm happy to host). A launcher would be great if someone can code it up. Achievements etc... I haven't clue how to approach that.
Someone, and I don't remember who, was talking a while ago on IRC about trying to make a system like Steam, but wherein you could download various roguelikes. You may be able to ask around and see if it got very far along or not, because this would be perhaps a nice way of introducing that to the public.
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Lots of things get talked about on IRC :P Certainly doesn't mean it's ever going to happen.
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A very simple launcher (a window with links or buttons that start the games) can be nice to have, but is clearly secondary.
A launcher in Steam style ... with online features? Way too much compatibility and security issues you have to care about, esp. if you want to integrate game features, such as achievements and highscore system.
I say focus on the games instead. On Windows, deploy them using an installer with a nice logo, on Linux in an archive, on MacOS in a nicely designed .dmg.
What each game could do: On its title screen, display an unobstrusive logo or a text hint that it is part of the bundle.
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I think that a Steam-like service only for roguelikes is an interesting idea, but doesn't RogueBasin already do sort of do that with it's "Games" section? There's also a featured roguelike on the main page. It's not as easy to find for the average passer-byer, and there isn't a launcher, which is always a nice thing to have. However, a service like that could reveal roguelikes to the public more, which is good. If the launcher was only for these "Incubator" roguelikes, then I think it would be a great way to bundle them up :).
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I don't think it is really that difficult to have such online features (create a website which can display the data, register users, and accept submissions, and make the launcher communicate with it via HTTP; this does not solve the problem of potential cheating, but probably we don't have to care), but I agree that it is better to concentrate on the games themselves.
NotEye wants to evolve into a server on which you can play and watch many roguelikes... but it would be console/libtcod only.
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I think one my greatest fears (and the reason why am so reluctant towards everything that goes beyond the initial incubator ideas discussed) is that too much unification could occur. I fear a roguelike world where everybody uses the same engine, the same interface, the same online features (if any) etc.
I also clearly want the incubator bundle feature DIFFERENT types of roguelikes, not only to honor the individual developers efforts, but also to give the audience a broad impression how huge this genre indeed is.
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Yeah, I agree. Unified branding is the limit really. Diversity is important.
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So right now we have:
- LambdaRogue (post-apocalyptic fantasy)
- Hydra Slayer (fantasy)
- PRIME (science fiction, thread will be up tomorrow)
- Something by XLambda. Is it that the dwarven concept roguelike?
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- Rogue Rage (pseudo Greek fantasy theme)
- Whatever Todd is making (RoboCaptain developed more?)
- Whatever Eliot Glarion is making
I need some free time to get together a build of Rogue Rage with tooltips before I start a thread, otherwise it's pretty hard to play.
Don't forget to add your name and game title to the spreadsheet:
http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ai4woBhgpQ7hdEd3d0JGM3AtdDQ0Nk9vZEJMYnR5LVE
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I'm going to try to get in on this. It'd give me a reason to push through 0.6 and prevent a lengthy hiatus like there was between 0.52 and the 0.6 peer review candidate.
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Cool :) Will you be able to meet the open platform requirement?
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I'll work toward making it ready for that throughout this month and July. Will that be enough time?
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- Something by XLambda. Is it that the dwarven concept roguelike?
Indeed. I've planned this for a long time, and most of the code has already been written, I just need to do a bit of balancing. Possibly optimize the UI a little before I put it out there. It's pure ASCII, but I try to make it as accessible and beautiful as possible. At the moment it's pretty coffeebreakish, but I will expand it a bit in the following months.
Roguelikes for the Roguelike God!
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I'll work toward making it ready for that throughout this month and July. Will that be enough time?
Sure, just be aware that this might not be a minor task with your current interface. Obviously the cabal will provide help wherever possible :)
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Great, a spam-bot made its way into the Incubator, too. :'(
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It just wants some love!
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I would very much like to join the bundle, I have a new rogue-like game that I am working on.
Unfortunately, I have to eat - and the non-commercialization thing really prevents me from entering. I am looking at hiring artists for this project and investing a lot of my own money and personal time.
I wouldn't mind something like 50% goes to charity, or if the bundle was a limited time thing i.e available for 7 days which could then be used to promote the iPhone / Android / Win7 builds of the game.
Anyway, just some initial feedback from someone who would rather make games for a living than a hobby.
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Well, remember that the bundle is just the first intended outing under the umbrella of it all----the actual Incubator part should be wide enough to encompass all sorts of projects just like how if one aiming for this initial bundle doesn't quite come together in time it'll crack on out later as opposed to somehow all that progress going up in smoke.
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Actually, after seeing how successful the Humble Bundle is, I think that a paid roguelike bundle would be a very good idea, and it could satisfy players like kraflab (http://roguetemple.com/forums/index.php?topic=2416.60) (who take price as a guarantee of quality and don't believe that free stuff can be good), devs like JoshuaSmyth, and possibly even developers who would like to earn some money but believe that it is wrong to restrict access to their creations (some of the games in the mix could be available directly for free (although of high quality), and share the bundle's income and marketing).
But the first bundle is free, in the good roguelike tradition...
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Maybe we could use whatever knowledge we garner out of this initiative (if it succeeds) for developing some new roguelikes to release as a commercial bundle.
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If there will be a commercial / Pay what you want bundle, I'm in - If it's the second bundle, then that's all good and I will wait for the second bundle :)
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I personally don't like the idea of having the bundle cost money. It could end up being successful, and get the developers a bit of money (and possibly Charity). But considering that most people don't know what a roguelike actually is, they probably wouldn't even bother with it. If it was a free thing, then more people would try it out and possibly even get into roguelikes themselves. I would rather the bundle be a way to get more people into roguelikes, than have it be a source of a bit of cash. If I saw a bundle of games I've never heard of, I probably wouldn't get it. Though if it was free, I would definitely try it out :).
The Humble Bundles build up quite a bit of money, but the games in them are usually advertised in some way and are generally already popular at the release of the bundle, so people are more willing to pay for them (Even more so because it's for Charity as well, and it's a way to get already available games for a cheaper price). I don't think that the Humble Bundles are a good comparable measurement for the success of this roguelike bundle if it were to cost money.
Just my 2 cents ;)
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I'm considering dropping out. :(
I'm finally fed up with the utter inability of Swing/AWT to do a proper pseudo-terminal. Screw it. I've been working on libjcsi fixes for a while now, and it'll never work out exactly the way I want it. All due to the botched job the java devs did wrt. fontMetrics. Ironically, I'm having portability issues now, since Win7 and OSX both provide a number of fonts that more or less work, while the vast majority of fonts available for Linux don't.
My options now are either writing something from scratch using another API and hope I get that done somehow... or switch to a different language, both of which will throw me back months. Needless to say, both options are bad for whatever ARRP plans I might have.
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I'm trying to get the C++11 reboot of Magog into a playable shape by ARRP 2012, and the project's aims are pretty much aligned with the current incubator plan. The game is GPL, and an usable and approachable UI definitely fits with the design ideal. The idea has been basically to do a pilot project to figure out what works with a continuous world map engine.
Unfortunately, progress has been very slow so far, and though the core map engine is reasonably solid, there's still very little actual game to speak of. I'll need to get somewhere with that before I can start soliciting useful feedback. Still, even if I'm stuck with my own stuff I can still give feedback on other projects.
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Mosenzov: that's what I thought several years ago, seeing the failure of Valhalla and JauntTrooper (both great commercial roguelikes). But apparently the situation is different now. Cardinal Quest and Dungeons of Dredmor have significant successes. Apparently more copies of Zaga-33 have been sold for iPhone, than downloaded for free (for PC/Mac). The masses do not behave in a logical way.
Anyway, the first bundle will be free, but there are some reasons to have a paid one too, later.
XLambda: it would be very sad to lose you due to such technical problems. Don't worry, hopefully after overcoming them you will be working on the nice things again :)
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I'm trying to get the C++11 reboot of Magog into a playable shape by ARRP 2012, and the project's aims are pretty much aligned with the current incubator plan.
Awesome to see this return----Factor hit a brick wall of some sort?
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I think a commercial bundle could be a success, especially if the games are also available for purchase separately at a higher price (so the bundle could advertise itself as discounting). However the administration of payments and such would be a giant headache that I'm not sure I want any part of. A free bundle is far easier to organise :)
Still, a commercial bundle is bound to happen at some point. Right now my focus is on the ARRP 2012 set, but there's nothing to stop others gathering into separate groups in the Incubator.
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A commercial route later might well be best served by talking with some of the Indie Busker folks or perhaps Poysky in terms of Gamersgate's IndieFort offerings as there is probably insights to be gained on the subject thereof.
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I'm trying to get the C++11 reboot of Magog into a playable shape by ARRP 2012, and the project's aims are pretty much aligned with the current incubator plan.
Awesome to see this return----Factor hit a brick wall of some sort?
Factor is nice, but I wanted to look into C++11, get closer to the metal with my base tech, and get a game library that can port to lots of places and uses a tool ecosystem with lots of support for more general viability. Also, my biggest difficulties these days seem to be with design, and language choice doesn't really help there.
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Just to let you know: my project is back on track! :)
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Congrats on getting it back on track, more the merrier! :)
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Turns out I hit a brick wall with C++11 stuff too. With a new day job of working with C++, I just stared at the code at home and had no energy to work with it. So I decided to see what's up with the Go language these days, and ended up starting a total rewrite of Teratogen in Go version 1, after deciding that the old code base was too mired in a combination of abandoned experimental Go libraries, an unidiomatic style and a messy general architecture to be salvageable. It's still very much a work in progress and obviously not making it for ARRP, but at least I'm getting code done again.
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Sorry for digging up such an old topic, but I honestly think this should be sticked up on the top of the subforum as an introduction to it. I had to scrounge a bit through the threads to finally dig up what's this all about. As I understand the Roguelike Bundle is dead-ish, but I think the incubator idea still works?
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Sorry for digging up such an old topic, but I honestly think this should be sticked up on the top of the subforum as an introduction to it. I had to scrounge a bit through the threads to finally dig up what's this all about. As I understand the Roguelike Bundle is dead-ish, but I think the incubator idea still works?
I agree that this should be stickied.
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Many separate indie devs have come to the same solution and attempted building a platform for game distribution, even before Steam and GOG were a thing, with various degrees of success. The realities of creating and maintaining such a platform typically diverge quite a bit from those of gamdev, and aren't particularly "fun" to manage...
I've been studying game distribution platforms & bundles for quite a while and have a few opinions on the matter to share. In my experience, the value of Bundles, Steam and other distribution platforms is primarily not in its unification of game distribution and/or uniform platform compatibility. Rather, their primary usefulness is in aggregation of games and content for the purpose of advertisement and discovery. The same holds true for Kickstarter and other crowd source platforms: Their monetary incentive is secondary to the benefit of promoting your game to the eyeballs the bundle/funding-platform/online store has already attracted. See also: Ye 'ol disc on a retail shelf bearing a title such as, "200 shareware games only $4.99"
Community / achievements / etc. features of distribution platforms are all tangential to game discovery. Note that you can easily talk about games and even gift games on Steam -- This promotes discovery. There's a competitive and social angle to scoring which can reinforce a community, this also reinforces other methods of discovery such as word of mouth and "Let's Play" advertising. The Humble Indie Bundle incorporates charity donations and leverages positive social signaling -- people like to point out how much they've helped some charity (meanwhile advertising your game). Like most devs, I find marketing to be quite a soul sucking affair, but that's the nature of the beast.
At this time I'm unprepared to participate in an incubator bundle. However, I can propose an alternative that anyone can participate in even if the developer can't comply with "open platform" restrictions:
If you are making a roguelike (or any game) then you should make a Press Kit. A typical press kit consists of game logos, gameplay screenshots, your catch phrase, an "elevator pitch" (short description of the game), a primary bullet list of features / mechanics (what makes your game worth playing), what platforms are supported, a link to get the game at, and etc. information that would be useful for creation of an article about your game by a game journalist (assuming they exist in this reality). The purpose of the press kit is to make it easy for others promote your roguelike.
Next, post a link to your presskit in a thread dedicated to the promotion of roguelike devs here. Maybe even try sending the kits to game "journalists" and "Let's Players" (along with a copy of the game). Don't ignore the lesser known outlets since they're usually hungry for unique or niche content... but I digress.
Before releasing your roguelike use your discretion to select a few roguelikes from among the other devs' games you appreciate, and promote them in-game by using content from their press kits on a "you might also like" screen, menu item, etc. Think of it like having a separate "credits" screen that promotes other roguelikes you like. The promoted games should optimally be in a playable state and of a sufficient quality or at least in the same vein of the game you're releasing. Try to include links to the other games if possible.
In this way roguelike devs can help promote each other as a dev community while aiding players in discovery of more roguelike games.
I think that an Incubator Bundle could utilize a similar method of cross-game discovery in lieu of or in addition to bundling. You can opt to employ Incubator bundle-branding and quality standards. Meanwhile, those not bundling could promote the Incubator bundle as well as other roguelike devs not in the bundle. My point is to make it easy to do so.
It's a rare thing to help your competitors compete with you, but it seemed to work for us sharware game devs back in the BBS days, and I think the strategy might still be useful today. This wheel has been reinvented many times. Remember Webrings? See also: Amazon's, "people who bought this also bought these", Pandora's music genome project, Netflix, and etc. recommendation engines.
TL;DR: Make & post your press kits, get recommended by other helpful roguelike devs / players, with or without being officially incubated. "A rising tide lifts all boats."
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I like this idea. Once my game has a specific end goal, I'll probably get around to trying to do something like this.