Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Development => Programming => Topic started by: Rankith on April 17, 2012, 11:44:27 PM
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Ok, I enjoy roguelikes, and I enjoy programming, so I'm gonna make a roguelike.
This is going to be in HTML 5 and im currently getting the framework setup (movement, level generation etc etc).
Now, I quite enjoy the fantasy setting, but thats been done alot so I would like to make this a future/sci-fi setting... But thats the only real ideas I have so far. This is why I'm posting here, for feedback on what you guys (Roguelike players) would want in a Rogue like.
My current design is thus:
Sci-fi/future
Basic graphics (Not ascii)
Played in web browser
Most likely not overworld style (IE not multiple dungeons, just one that goes deeper)
Design questions I have that need answering:
Complexity: Complex (Think Crawl), MiddleGround (Maybe dungeons of dreadmore ish), Simple(hack slash loot)
Personally, I'm leaning more towards middle/complex
Character building: Should it be a race/class system, class system, skill system, some other system?
Movement: 4-way, 8-way.
How to utilize future setting: If I have races what should they be? What should "magic" be like? Screw the future, go with fantasy? etc.
Hub town/persistance: Should there be a hub town with quests and multiple dungeons? Or just one deeper and deeper.
Unlockable classes etc: Special achievements to strive for in the game that will unlock new character types or dungeons or modes? Or just 100% available at start?
Completing a game: 30 min, 5 hours, 20 hours? This kinda ties in to hub towns and such.
What do you guys like, what would you like to see? Hit me with any ideas/wishes or whatever as I don't have any specifics outlined myself at this point so wont be innately "resistant" to anything and I'm very interested in what people want out of roguelikes.
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Although I prefer fantasy, I don't mind sci-fi. I'll probably hit you with more mechanics than content, seeing how I'm no expert on the future.
Complexity should be just enough so that a new player can jump in, but a more experienced player will be able to exploit the more interesting item interactions. I'm going to say "middle ground."
Since it's sci-fi, you could probably go the race system, maybe humans and cyborgs and robots etc. Skills would probably fit as well.
Movement: 8-way, all the way.
Figure out what kind of maps you want. Rooms connected by corridors? Natural caves? Platforms connected by bridges as you climb the tower of the future? Personally my project is generated through cellular automata, to make natural caves, since I'm going fantasy.
Magic can be utilized through genetic implants, etc. Look at "BioShock." Magic rings and necklaces can be turned into brain implants (that's what I've seen)
Think about whether or not you want the basic graphics to be just tiles, or animated little characters. Compare NetHack tiles to 100 Rogues (iPod/iPad/MacOSX only).
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I would avoid character creation and leveling all together. Sci-fi lends itself to logistics and resource management more so than races and such. It may be interesting if you could find terminals to replace lost limbs with artificial ones or acquire permanent enhances to strength via genetic modifications.
The interesting thing about technology is that it makes men more equal. The rifle allows for a commoner to easily kill a warrior-- it's these types of principles that I think are lacking in Sci-Fi. Classist and Racist systems detract from the fact that Sci-Fi is interesting more so for how tools are utilized than what a person is capable of.
There are obvious skills, but I think a Brogue-ish approach of developing your character as you progress does a LOT to make a game more accessible.
Suppose players are autonomous teleological robots but have somehow lost their primary directive. Your system automatically defaults to questing for some lost piece of data or equipment. Perhaps you directives become decrypted from your memory banks as progress is made-- perhaps you can swap out discovered modules to give you skills that you wouldn't have normally.
It'd be interesting to make it entirely item/inventory dependent. Inventory restrictions determine how many classist-type of abilities the player has available to switch on and off. Effectively giving them a dynamic character. The tough questions revolve around what items to keep and which ones to give up. This way everything discovered is likely to be useful.
I would have skills involved with this, but I would make those skills only accessible via items/equipment. Maybe randomize a player's starting equipment so that they have to think about start-game strategy in a different way each time, but they then have the freedom to mold their character however they can. It might also be interesting to have 'blank' chips that they can use to drain properties from other artificial lifeforms to gain new cocktails of skills or to mix existing chips in a way that yields unexpected but consistent results (an alchemy cookbook).
Anyhow, just some thoughts.
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Go with Mr. Requerent. He's obviously way more sci-fi than me.
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The interesting thing about technology is that it makes men more equal nerds more powerful.
Corrected. ;D
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Excellent suggestions both of you thanks!
Im a little scared on how the item for skills would work, but it would be a great variant so ill try to pursue that.
I think you definitely hit on something with having the PC be a robot, that allows for alot of cool stuff. I do want some form of customization at the start so maybe you get to select what type you were at first and that determines one or two starting pieces.
As for location and area design, Id like to have multiple different designs as you go "deeper". But not sure what would really be suited here.
Thanks again though, some great ideas, keep em coming if you have more.
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I'm getting ready to make an attempt at this kind of game myself, just to say I did it and see how my version turns out. Since you asked, here are my thoughts:
Complexity: Aim for MiddleGround.5
Character building: Develop a system that derives directly from your setting and situation. Forget the races and classes, unless they have a purpose related to that. Arbitrary randomness is great in a roguelike, but not when it extends to the character attributes.
Movement: Whatever seems intuitive.
How to utilize future setting: Get creative. Come up with the start of a story or a setting and run with it. Create an interesting situation for the player to explore.
Hub town/persistance: If it works with your setting, go for it. If it doesn't, don't worry about it, or else stick one on a dungeon level somewhere to be discovered later.
Unlockable classes etc: Dealer's choice here. It's your game, man. I wouldn't lock more than half the options, though, and probably not even that many.
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Im definitely gonna skip race/class for now.
Remember though, I want to know what YOU want. So dealers choice items, your the dealer, what would YOU like to play etc?
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That's really going to depend on who your target audience is. I'm not a hardcore roguelike junkie. I've never beaten a roguelike before, with the exception of one game that played like a RL but was mapped out like an adventure game, if you count that. And I can't even remember the name of that game as I played it so long ago (somewhere around 1990). So my opinions on this are probably going to differ from someone who's beaten more than half all RLs in existence.
Assuming I'm *still* the dealer, though, I don't care about unlockable classes. I probably am not going to get far enough in a RL to unlock much of anything, that's why I didn't form an opinion on it. So any class you lock is a class I probably am not going to get to play. I'm okay with that as long as you don't lock the stuff considered to be normal fare for roleplaying games.
Movement? Arrow keys and numpad are fine for me. Numpad is probably harder to do on my netbook since it doesn't have one, so I'd want the control system to be mappable.
Everything else I didn't answer are things I consider highly dependent on your game's initial premise, and that's a part of the game you're going to have to come up with yourself if you haven't already. :)
One other thing: if you make the object interface arcane, counterintuitive, or otherwise indecipherable and difficult to remember from game to game, I'm probably not going to play for long. That's likely one of the reasons I've never beaten a roguelike. I get bored with having to look up commands I can't remember because I hardly ever use them. Concerns like this are also why I use the word 'intuitive' a lot when talking about game design.
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The interesting thing about technology is that it makes men more equal nerds more powerful invincible.
No, Fenrir, that is the correct phrasing ;)
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I think sci-fi works best when it isn't a straight conversion of fantasy tropes. I actually think it works best when there is a small mix of fantasy mixed in in original ways. Kinda like Phantasy Star or Final Fantasy 6. Sword equivalents don't necessarily have to be light sabers. They could be like a "Titanium Tech Blade" or whatever for instance or "laser claws".
Enemies don't all have to be Aliens. They could still be beasts and such.
If you were going to go with races, I would try to come up with some original ones that can stick out besides generic alien, human, cyborg, robot, etc.
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My answers, for what they are worth:
Complexity: Go for simple at first but have an eye toward expansion. Try to make it so that you always have a playable game. This will keep you interested, so they say.
Character Building: Anything can work well. A straight class system, like Cyborg, Pilot, Ninja, Quarterback, etc...those can be fun. Or you can go with races you create with sweet names like Nalwick, XXyyZiCks, etc...or you can do a fantasy conversion straight across, with Humans, Belters (elves), Heavy Worlders (dwarces) and Far Siders (halflings) and the classes be Solder (fighter), Medic (priest), Scoundrel (rogue), Psychic (mage)...my personal preference is to toss character building all together and just jump into the game like Powder and Brogue.
Movement - No preference, but many people HATE 4 way.
Wish List - No leveling. Advancement in game is through gear collection.
RESOURCES - Check out the old sci fi RPG STAR FRONTIERS. There are several books all freely available online. Some good ideas in there. Also ALTERNITY was pretty good for ideas.
Hub Town - I like persistent dungeons and no town. No quests. Just the main goal of kill the baddy or retrieve the epic item of awesome.
Unlockables - Fuck that. I have very strong opinions on that shit. Fuck it. All of it. Don't nerf the game out of the box. Please. :-)
Game Length - 30 minutes. You can beat the game quickly if you are good enough, but you'll NEVER see all the content in one game, or 5 games for that matter. Binding of Isaac did this well.
EDIT: What's most important, probably, is that you make the game YOU want to play.
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Thanks again for the great ideas all. Really helping me flesh out what I want to do. I made alot of progress today and have Movement, LoS and basic pathfinding stuff setup. Tomorrow I figure out the style of levels I want to generate, what do you guys think on those. Open spaces? Lotsa Corridors? Generate it room based so its more like a building instead of random cave (leaning this way for scifi). Maybe I should save level generating for last so I can build the levels around how the gameplay mechanics end up working out? (Wide open vs tight corridors etc).
Thanks again for the brainstorming!
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Thanks again for the great ideas all. Really helping me flesh out what I want to do. I made alot of progress today and have Movement, LoS and basic pathfinding stuff setup. Tomorrow I figure out the style of levels I want to generate, what do you guys think on those. Open spaces? Lotsa Corridors? Generate it room based so its more like a building instead of random cave (leaning this way for scifi). Maybe I should save level generating for last so I can build the levels around how the gameplay mechanics end up working out? (Wide open vs tight corridors etc).
Thanks again for the brainstorming!
I think you should have buildings, not caves. Unless it's a fallen-sci-fi-type-thing-where-they-got-kicked-out-of-the-city-and-have-to-survive-with-minimal-technology kind of thing
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Thanks again for the great ideas all. Really helping me flesh out what I want to do. I made alot of progress today and have Movement, LoS and basic pathfinding stuff setup. Tomorrow I figure out the style of levels I want to generate, what do you guys think on those. Open spaces? Lotsa Corridors? Generate it room based so its more like a building instead of random cave (leaning this way for scifi). Maybe I should save level generating for last so I can build the levels around how the gameplay mechanics end up working out? (Wide open vs tight corridors etc).
Thanks again for the brainstorming!
I think you should have buildings, not caves. Unless it's a fallen-sci-fi-type-thing-where-they-got-kicked-out-of-the-city-and-have-to-survive-with-minimal-technology kind of thing
Or crashed on an alien planet.
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Or crashed on an alien planet.
Exactly. See? Way more sci-fi than me.
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I think what you need to do, before you figure out any of the plot or mechanics (or take any advice from us regarding those things), is if (and how) you want your game to differ from other games. There are pros and cons for both, so you can go either way, but you really want to determine that for yourself. More than anything else, you should try to envision where you want your game to be and what kind of ambition and effort you have for this game: roguelike is the type of genre that produces very short and very long games, both in development time and player time. Inevitably it is these principles that help design the game, and the plot and mechanics are mere afterthought by comparison.
This aside, it sounds more like you're aiming the plot to be "not fantasy" rather than science fiction. Certainly there are topics beyond these two, even if they aren't touched upon often. What about a modern setting, along the lines of Grand Theft Auto? You could also consider a wholly-abstract setting, in which all of the characters begin as "souls" and literally will themselves and their environment into existence. There's also steampunk which fits as a sort of sci-fi/fantasy hybrid, typically placed in an industrial era and involving technomagical devices (not even with literal magic, so to speak, but technology ridiculous enough to be thought of as magical). Or how about a "real but whimsical" setting, like insect worlds or aquatic habitats? There's a lot out there when it comes to designing a "universe" for your story.
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If you're still in search of a good initial premise, I'd suggest finding a few science fiction books/series/games that you enjoy the most and projecting some of the ideas that make them enjoyable into your roguelike concept, then designing everything around whatever premise you come up with.
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It'd be interesting to make it entirely item/inventory dependent. Inventory restrictions determine how many classist-type of abilities the player has available to switch on and off. Effectively giving them a dynamic character. The tough questions revolve around what items to keep and which ones to give up. This way everything discovered is likely to be useful.
This is what I experimented with in Cogmind for this year's 7DRL, and it turned out to be a totally different way to adventure through a dungeon environment. Especially because your parts/modules can be damaged and destroyed with no way to repair/restore them unless you carry spares, so your character is constantly changing as you play through the game and find new items (all of which are potential parts you can attach, including those you take from destroyed enemy robots).
The player chooses to gain new slots of different types as they advance, which are capable of connecting to parts of certain types. So by the end of the game you can have a couple dozen different parts, and your abilities vary greatly depending on how you've decided to evolve and what you've decided to attach.
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Shit. I still have to check out Cogmind. Heard it was good.
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Ok, I enjoy roguelikes, and I enjoy programming, so I'm gonna make a roguelike.
This is going to be in HTML 5 and im currently getting the framework setup (movement, level generation etc etc).
Now, I quite enjoy the fantasy setting, but thats been done alot so I would like to make this a future/sci-fi setting... But thats the only real ideas I have so far. This is why I'm posting here, for feedback on what you guys (Roguelike players) would want in a Rogue like.
What I would want in such game? Make it cross-browser. In other words make sure it does not demand me to use only this-and-that browser or else the game is not going to work.
Yes, Cogming is good. Putting the robot together in various ways is heaps of fun. On the other hand combat is mostly deprived of feedback killing the depth of the game. I find it very difficult to know whether I am damaging other machine or not, if not it is because I miss or my weapon deals wrong type of damage. In short not enough clues what is going on. Targeted robot either blows up or you see no difference.
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Not to turn this into a Cogmind thread, but...
Yes, Cogming is good. Putting the robot together in various ways is heaps of fun. On the other hand combat is mostly deprived of feedback killing the depth of the game. I find it very difficult to know whether I am damaging other machine or not, if not it is because I miss or my weapon deals wrong type of damage. In short not enough clues what is going on. Targeted robot either blows up or you see no difference.
For players like you, Ancient, there's the 'q' key, which is only documented in the advanced players manual. You can use it to modify how much combat feedback you get in the log. There are 5 different verbosity settings of various levels of detail beyond the default, and at the highest level the game will tell you your chance to hit with every weapon fired, whether or not you hit, what part(s) you hit, how much damage you did, and more...
There's a lot to discover in the game, both in terms of gameplay and UI features not listed on the F1 screen, but much of it was hidden away in the manual since I didn't want to scare away players looking for a game that's easier to get into. There's enough complexity as is without throwing more numbers at people, but it's there if you want it.
Shit. I still have to check out Cogmind.
I'm pretty much done with it, so now's a good time ;)