Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Game Discussion => Classic Roguelikes => Topic started by: Essegi on April 14, 2012, 01:27:54 PM
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Hi to all, i'm a newbie with few experience. I have played only Desktop Dungeons, WazHack, very little DoomRL, some coffebreaks and checked some others (for example i tried Epilogue and frozen dephts and they are nice).
I'm interested to play a big, full featured one (probably this summer for time issues).
I checked something in roguebasin and i'm interested in the hacklike type and the ones i found most appealing are DCSS and UnNetHack.
For DCSS i completed the tutorial (not at the first try) and for UnNetHack just tried it (dying on second floor cause i didn't noticed a jackal biting me ;D).
At a first glance DCSS seems more fun but UnNetHack maybe has strange things (pet, i don't know if i like it, possibility to kick, wich maybe there's also in DCSS but i didn't noticed).
I like also the DCSS tiles a lot (i like that they are simple but detailed, if you change weapon o armor you see it!) and the interface seems nice (there's a lot of commands but you can do a lot) and i see it's popular.
UnNetHack seems more obscure. I heard that NetHack has a nice sense of humor (i don't know if DCSS has, maybe it's not esential but it's a nice addition).
I've also heard that NetHack is a LOT difficult but Crawl is even more cruel (so i think DCSS is more cruel than UnNetHack).
I'm interested in the following points:
-combat and offcombat variety, fun and satisfaction (abilities, monsters, ruleset, pg customization, if it's rewarding and so on)
-strange tihings to do (i've heard for example that you can write something in NetHack in the floor to keep some enemies at distance)
-variety and complexity with good sense (to have variety is good, to have variety and each difference is meaningful is better)
I know i just should play both, but i haven't a lot of time and i like also other games. :P
So wich one do you advise me on?
Will it be a better idea to start with the plain NetHack or the original Crawl?
At the moment i like DCSS more but the fact is that i can't even slightly dare to judge one of these titles.
Thanks!
PS: i hope to have posted in the right section and sorry if i use some words in a not proper way, English is not my first language.
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I strongly recommend dcss. It is the first real roguelike I got into, so I can definitely say it is fine for a newbie (and also I am probably biased because of this). It also has so many class and race options that it can take ages for you to even decide what type of character you want to play (something I really enjoy). I haven't played unnethack though, so I can't compare and contrast the two.
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Thanks for you opinion, at least it confirms that is viable as a first complex experience. For background and races i noticed dcss is umbeatable (i saw also Trinagle Wizard has a lot of choices and although it seems a fine one it's not the game i seek) as number, i hope these differences have a sensible impact on gameplay.
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Nethack has a huge choice of things you can do - it's definitely the interactions with items and surroundings that make it interesting. It's worth giving a try even if you find the rest to be meh. DCSS is a lot of fun to play around with, and IIRC pretty fair, but I never came far, so I don't really have much DCSS experience. Nowadays I'm mostly sticking to Nethack and ToME4 (quite different from Nethack and DCSS, you might want to give that a try as well). Personally, I would play vanilla Nethack before trying any variants - it's IMO still the best.
Remember, if you've decided to play one of these for a longer time, take a look at the nethack and DCSS servers - they might be ASCII only, but they let you play the games on any computer you use without installing. Yes, even on University servers. ;D
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Thanks for you opinion, at least it confirms that is viable as a first complex experience. For background and races i noticed dcss is umbeatable (i saw also Trinagle Wizard has a lot of choices and although it seems a fine one it's not the game i seek) as number, i hope these differences have a sensible impact on gameplay.
Actually, the former lead designer was deeply concerned with making sure each race/class was unique and involved different gameplay.
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@XLambda: Thanks you too.
So maybe the choice should be between plain NetHack and DCSS!:D I see that NetHack hasn't been updated for a long time but maybe this should mean that it's more stable...
So if i am not uncorrect maybe combat is better on DCSS and NetHack wins in enviroment interaction/strange things. And probably they are more different than i thouhgt. So now i'm maybe even less decided than before because are 2 aspect i seek (maybe more combat on long term, but i want to play also for interaction at least once)!;D
For Tome: i saw that was derived from Angband, i don't know how is it now, but this time i prefer to check traditional hacklike...
I don't really mind if tiles or ascii, it's not a problem to play with the local version (for university i have barely the time to attend courses :piand no time to use their pc, at work local is working :p).
@kraflab: strong point here, thanks for this!:)
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If you enjoy those kind of weird things to do then go for UnNetHack. The downside is that many players agree about the fact that at a certain point it is unavoidable to have a look at the spoilers, because very often those kind of trick don't make sense and are nearly impossible to figure out.
I personally never went that much into NetHack because of this.
DCSS is a very good game.. not as "spoiler-free" as its developers wanted it to be because most mechanichs are undisclosed unless you code-dive, but nothing like NetHack regarding this.
Both very good and complex games but if I were you I'd go for Adom.
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Thanks. Now i am thinking to start with NetHack (or UnNetHack), but i know i'll change opinion 10 times before starting.;D
Could you explain why should Adom be a better choice? :)
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Because it's got the mistery and complexity (possible actions and situations) of NetHack.. without its occasional complete detachment to logics, and it's also got the replayability and many other factors that make DCSS a great game.
On the other hand it's a bit less (but just a little) balanced and farm-free than DCSS and also less absurd and maybe fun than NetHack.. but I'd say it's the best one to start with. Another downside is that its developer, Thomas Biskup, abandoned its development, while DCSS devs are very active and NetHack variants are also constantly adding features to the game (as far as I know).. and I don't know if you'd be ok with ascii-only graphics (I do but I understand some players may prefere tiles).. but it's my favourite roguelike ever and also the first one I played.
Every friend I recommended it in the past went in love with it.
Don't get me wrong, DCSS and NetHack are both excellent games I had a lot of fun with.
Btw, welcome to RogueTemple Essegi! I'm italian as well, not many of us around the Roguelike scene.
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Ok, thanks, good points here! Defintely worth to consider. I shouldn't have problem with ascii only.
And thanks for welcome fellow countryman!
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I found learning to play Dungeon Crawl was a lot easier. The tutorials are really good.
The skill system is quite nice as well, and there's a lot of replay
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Nethack, and UnNethack, is a classic. Can be hard to get into. Spoilers from the internet are basically required reading if you want to beat it in a summer. Some have played for decades without beating it.
Crawl is very well put together. Much easier to get into. Still hard as hell, but you do not need to find spoilers on the web.
ToME4 probably has the best interface. It's all graphical and point and click. ToME4 is currently the most popular, or at least the top rated, roguelike out there.
ADOM is out there as well. I never got into it, but it's very popular.
Commercial ventures like Dungeons of Dredmore and Cardinal Quest are also very good. They cost money though. So that's a bit of an issue.
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It might be worth mentioning BRogue. It's not as intense and comprehensive as Crawl or Hack, but its very fun, and a good game to learn on.
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Thanks.
I think i'll start with NetHack or UnNetHack to see if can stand it. With spoilers, i'm curious to see how much complex it can be. In spite of thread title "for a newbie", i intended it not for having a simple one to play but to see complexity and completeness, so i'll discard for the moment Brogue and Cardinal Quest (wich i bought on a bundle). I have also Dungeons Of Dredmor (bought on a Steam sale), i just started it and at first impression i like more DCSS...
Maybe after playing for some time NetHack, i'll move to DCSS wich seems more fun to play (and keeping an eye to Adom and Tome). ;)
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Jjust be warned. This rabbit hole is very deep :)
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Ah ah so the Amulet of Yendor is the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch to kill the-killer-rabbit! ;D
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I couldn't recommend anything but Brogue.
Why? Because it's simpler, NO SPOILERS required at all, and very few controls to memorize.
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Maybe i should take a look closer to Brogue, i see many reccomendations (on other places).
I haven't yet had the chance to begin a serious play, just checked new versions of WazHack and tried (and incidentally beaten) Cardinal Quest...
Anyway i'll start with DCSS, i played it once and i liked it a lot. Also Tome seems truly excellent (and different, more "transparent"), today i've seen the tutorial. In future i'll take Adom on, for now i wait the fruits of the crowfunding (since i've donated :P).
Ah, i've played a couple of times at Ivan (best name ever), not enough to remotely understand the game but: nice tiles and interface, maybe simpler than others (but not simple) but it's wicked and utterly cruel. And fun! :)
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Maybe i should take a look closer to Brogue, i see many reccomendations (on other places).
I haven't yet had the chance to begin a serious play, just checked new versions of WazHack and tried (and incidentally beaten) Cardinal Quest...
Anyway i'll start with DCSS, i played it once and i liked it a lot. Also Tome seems truly excellent (and different, more "transparent"), today i've seen the tutorial. In future i'll take Adom on, for now i wait the fruits of the crowfunding (since i've donated :P).
Ah, i've played a couple of times at Ivan (best name ever), not enough to remotely understand the game but: nice tiles and interface, maybe simpler than others (but not simple) but it's wicked and utterly cruel. And fun! :)
The more I think about it, the less I like Brogue. It seems like it should be really good, and it's definitely got the flash, but it still suffers from the design errors that I tend to hate in "classical" roguelikes. Same with dcss. They're both great games, don't get me wrong, just flawed in the end.
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The more I think about it, the less I like Brogue. It seems like it should be really good, and it's definitely got the flash, but it still suffers from the design errors that I tend to hate in "classical" roguelikes. Same with dcss. They're both great games, don't get me wrong, just flawed in the end.
I just tried Brogue on the fly in the past, for some reasons i was note very appealed.
Could you explain what you don't like of classical roguelikes?
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The more I think about it, the less I like Brogue. It seems like it should be really good, and it's definitely got the flash, but it still suffers from the design errors that I tend to hate in "classical" roguelikes. Same with dcss. They're both great games, don't get me wrong, just flawed in the end.
I just tried Brogue on the fly in the past, for some reasons i was note very appealed.
Could you explain what you don't like of classical roguelikes?
It's simple really, and the major design flaw is something I fundamentally don't understand. Roguelikes are supposedly about tactics and strategy. Look a bit deeper and I think it breaks down. If you are good enough to get past maybe level 3 in dcss you hit this coasting period. You really can't die unless you do something stupid, and when you do die it's because the game got so boring you stopped paying attention. So why are those levels even there? Another thing that annoys me is the heavy chance element. If you look at http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/2012/08/first-win.html you will see a very specific example of this. It's that lack of feeling a threat that bothers me. Obviously I'm not going to say that it was no accomplishment to win, it was, but I think those types of circumstances soil the experience a bit.
Now I don't want to be completely negative here, since I do enjoy playing the classic roguelikes from time to time, but in my mind they completely fail to do what should be the great thing about a roguelike. That's honestly why I wrote my roguelike, because I felt that even the so-called major roguelikes "got it wrong" in a sense. Obviously spoiler-necessary content is another terrible thing, although it can be fun if you like that sort of thing. Anyway, Epilogue basically cuts out the bs from the roguelike genre. You do not ever coast. The first 3 levels are a bit chill while you build your character (although you can still die if you make mistakes) but after that is the only roguelike I've played where I literally stop and think every single turn. I think they've talked about that on rlr as being the goal of a roguelike in some respects. Every turn should matter. On the last level I honestly stop and examine my surroundings after every step. The tension is just really that high. And best of all, things are balanced so tightly that you really can't blame the game for your death (although you might if you don't understand the game). ;)
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Ok, i think i got your point :)
Anyway there's plenty of room to do something stupid and die, especially for newcomers. :P And for more relaxed play there's the mechanics of hunger that keep it interesting imho.
Yesterday i played a little DCSS: autoexplore is truly an excellent feature, it speeds up play significantly. Maybe sometimes it seems you are doing well, but the situation can degenerate suddenly.
I played a bit Epilogue (of course voted on GreenLight :D), i agree that it's difficult and you have to think every move, you can die easily in the first floor if you dont't pay attention.
Another game somewhat similar is Through, although simpler, i remember an old version to be quite hard and tactical.
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Here the RL's I love:
Rogue, that started it all: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Rogue
Larn: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Larn
Nethack, as you stated. You can also try Nethack Falcon's Eye that is a 3D version of NetHack.
Other ones that may got your attention and I liked them too:
Hydra Slayer: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Hydra_Slayer
Berserk!: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Berserk!
BRogue: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Brogue
Incursion: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Incursion
Other I tried but I didn't like that much but still, they are not bad:
IVAN (Iter Vehemens Ad Necem): http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=IVAN
Lost Labyrinth: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Lost_Labyrinth
Nazghul: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Nazghul
DiabloRL: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=DiabloRL
Other RL's that I never played but they look good and they are in my "ToDo" list:
PRIME: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=PRIME
Silver Quest: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=SilverQuest
UnReal World: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=UnReal_World <- Actually I played this, but only 5 minutes, and it seems incredible complex.
Xenocide: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Xenocide
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Good call on PRIME. It's really coming along.
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Good call on PRIME. It's really coming along.
Yes. It looks great. Actually it's the first RL in my ToDo list.
Damn there are so much promising RL's and days only have 24 hours...
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Damn there are so much promising RL's and days only have 24 hours...
Lol true, and lately i'm looking also to old/hardcore indie crps (Eye Of The Beholder, Realms Of Arkania, Knighs Of The Chalice, and looking to Age Of Decadence among others) and little time to play.
Thanks for pointing out Prime, i have never tried it.
Ah, i've tried a couple of time NetHack with Falcon's Eye, it has some nice things, i like the music too, but i don't like the perspective, sometimes it seems more difficult to understand.