Author Topic: Roguelike Archive  (Read 4610 times)

Avagart

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Roguelike Archive
« on: October 24, 2015, 04:43:56 PM »
Think it`s time for my Archive Hoarder Mode to activate. The danger these games will just vanish forever is quite real and rather scary. That reddit torrent is a good attempt but we need something more ruthlessly scientific, in a TOSEC vein

And I agree with him. And I would like to raise the issue of 'vulnerable' roguelikes: small / little known / abandoned / those that have already disappeared from network.

I think would be good to make lists of roguelike which vanished aldready or which are rare, difficult to find or just probably at risk of vanish. Someone can still have them on HDD so it might make sense to (re)upload and make them available?

Avagart

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Re: Roguelike Archive
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2015, 07:57:44 PM »
So far only I checked 7DRL 2013-2015, but if you know roguelike which isn't easily accessible or his official site disappeared, please write here! :)

I just up unavailable roguelikes on my dropbox now, but I hope we will find better way to 'archive' these games.

Roguelikes with broken official links, which I have in my collection:

    7DRL 2013
        Dungeon-Themed Starvation Simulator link
        KlingonRL link
        Trinkets (binary) link
    7DRL 2014
        Something Something Office Rampage link
        The Deadly Four link
        Plato Rogue link
        Power Grounds link
        Princess Rescue link
        The Littlest Princess link
    7DRL 2015
        Blackguard link
        DeathDealer (binary) link
        Hellion (aka Space Hellion) link
        Little Warrior link
        Seventh Saga (here or in 'rare'?) link
        Transfix link
        Voronoiace (it's 7DRL? 2015?) link

Rare roguelikes, or harder (usually just wo page on roguebasin ;) ) to find:
    7DRL 2013:
        Attack the Geth
        EXCELent Rogue
        FlatlineRL
        Fleeing the Fray
        Friendly Meddling
        the case of the girl in the red dress
        H. P. Roguelike
        Land of Strangers
        Lurk Under Wires
        Like a Rogue
        STACKER
        Tetrogue
        Urwald
        Liberation of Yarna
    7DRL 2014
        Colosseum of Rogues
        Good Game
        Guilder
        Hellspace
        horddays
        Knight
        Mountain of the Gods
        Rushan grows stronger (aka RushanRL)
        Saligia
        SoulsRL
        The Mana Well
        Third Planet
        Variablo
    7DRL 2015 (lots of these are not in risk, because itch.io, but - I get 'roguebasin' as 'base' ;) )
        I'm the Burglar
        Cinnamon Fins RL
        Cloak and Tower
        Curse of the Dry Hills
        Dumuzid
        Dusk of a Shattered Kingdom (aka dusk)
        Edwin's 2015 Seven Day Roguelike
        Evig Winter
        Feeding Frenzy
        Goblin-COM
        Goblin Gold
        HarvestRL (aka A Rogue Harvest)
        Heart of Morning
        High Tech Survival
        Isometric ASCII Roguelike (aka Isometric Roguelike - By Metaldemon)
        koobas
        Lost Valkyrie
        Outlaw Space
        Phage
        Rogue AI
        Rogue for Hire
        Roguelikeishness
        RoyaLe
        Salvage Crew
        Second Stepper
        Sneak
        Space Scavenger
        The Dungeon
        Theseus
        To the West (binary)
        TradewarsRL
        Vamp N Wolves
        We Have a Bug (aka We Have an Evil Bug)
        That's okay, you've got explosives.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 12:18:52 AM by Avagart »

Ancient

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Re: Roguelike Archive
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2015, 11:45:48 PM »
This sounds much like Roguelike Graveyard site initially led by Jakub. Wayback Machine has much of that archived and my hard disk is even more bountiful treasury of the old or forgotten. I estimate to have around thirty titles hard to find otherwise. This is a consequence of being maintainer of now defunct list of actively developed roguelikes for some time.
Michał Bieliński, reviewer for Temple of the Roguelike

akeley

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Re: Roguelike Archive
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2015, 08:40:29 AM »
I`m gonna go with a more completist angle and simply aim to collect every roguelike ever released. That`s because a) it`s impossible to predict which game will eventually became endangered  b) it`s fun to have everything in one place...just because and also think doomsday for when we finally have to live in a post-apoc scenario with no interwebs or maybe for aliens to find on some ancient SSD...

Projects like these are of course mostly work in progress, since there will be heaps of games missing, some for good, some being "found" eventually. But once there is a  solid base it will be possible to release an all-encompassing torrent. Then people can compare its contents with various collections, archives, databases and such and add to it / make corrections and update the thing. After that a definitive master list can be compiled, accompanied by a Missing RLs poster - so as we know which ones are really really gone and making efforts to recover them.

My plan at the moment is to use the Roguetemple database as a starting point (mined it already when I first joined this site but I wasn`t strict enough). This entails going through every single entry, downloading the content and making notes about the problematic ones (missing/unreleased/HTML etc). For now I will exclude the 7DLR section - this is a big job for later as it`s much more messy.

The structure will be something like alpha / beta+stable / unfinished directories with separate games packed within. This way it`s possible to download a single game instead of the whole torrent and also still have some sort of order that other folks can mold more to their liking - say, if you want to lump everything in a single directory on your HDD. Still have to decide on some naming convention too.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 09:03:42 AM by akeley »

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Re: Roguelike Archive
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2015, 06:15:23 PM »
You should put the information online, so others can go over the list, and help out.  I know you live in a russian bunker and only venture out while wearing full body tinfoil  ;), so IIRC do not have a google account, but a google docs spreadsheet would be ideal for this.  More cumbersome would be a specialised page in the roguebasic  wiki.

In any case, if you did so, you could post updates to /r/roguelikes on reddit, and people would likely jump in and help out.

akeley

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Re: Roguelike Archive
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2015, 09:48:06 PM »
Ha, it was actually a Polish bunker (now transmuted into some other localities) - but you`re not wrong about the rest :P Yes, I`m a rather stubborn caveman and so anything Google is out of question. Not a big fan of Reddit either, besides they already have a torrent going there .

Thing is the initial stage of this operation (building a collection out of the Temple`s db) is not a chore in the slightest - I really enjoying digging in the digital crates. So don`t really need help as such since it`s really a pleasure. Other thing is, there`s lots of decisions to be made with this kinda projects and I`d rather avoid unnecessary arguments (I participated in quite a few similar endeavours in retro gaming area and even seemingly silly things like "shall we have a directory inside a zip or leave files loose?" can cause much commotion). And since it`s something I`m gonna use for foreseeable future, I`d like it to be done my way (see the "stubborn" bit)

However, that doesn`t of course mean I wouldn`t like to share it with the community. To this end I`m trying my best atm to come up with a format that would be easily adjustable by whomever it might concern - in short, so if folks don`t like my way of doing things, they can easily change the format/structure and adapt it to some other consensus. I already have most of it planned out and will post methodology details here over the next weekend (hopefully). Sure enough, more people could accomplish this sooner than one person...but  I don`t see nothing wrong with more than one team doing it anyway, it could be also beneficial.

The real help will also be needed later on, with general "proofreading", testing for Mac/Linux - perhaps even building dedicated versions for these platforms (haven`t decided how to tackle this yet) and of course most of all with search parties once there`s a real Missing list.

7DRLs are another area that probably could use external input - I do have in mind a gargantuan task of trying to persuade every single participant who completed the challenge to release a standalone  - or finding a way of ripping them from the web. This could be quite a task...
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 09:53:21 PM by akeley »

Ancient

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Re: Roguelike Archive
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2015, 04:12:08 AM »
methodology
*spits in disgust*

The real help will also be needed later (...) of course most of all with search parties once there`s a real Missing list
This is the part I am willing to help as long there is no requirement to conform to a ... (shudder) methodology. Place simple instructions how you want this done, not some thrice cursed EULA.
Michał Bieliński, reviewer for Temple of the Roguelike

akeley

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Re: Roguelike Archive
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2015, 08:44:01 PM »
*spits in disgust*
I take it as an encouragement, especially seeing as it comes from one of the anc...umm, elder roguetemplars. It`s a tough love here, eh 8)

I do have a propensity to use words in a slightly theatrical way, especially in languages that are not my native one. Hence "methodology" means just a bunch of basic rules and decisions on how to approach this subject. Sure, it can be done without any - in fact that`s what the reddit torrent is like, have a look here: https://archive.org/details/RoguelikeMegaCollection2015

Not to detract from the author`s work in any way - it is indeed a great initiative and at least "something" out there -  however it has several flaws. It`s not really searchable, some names could be a mystery even to veterans, it`s a big ol (writhin`?) mixed up mass of files, and also its exactness is questionable (tried looking for 3059 and Abura Tan with no result, perhaps the fault of naming again).

I will outline the rough draft (aka the METHODOLOGY, hell yea) in my next post, however the task Ancient volunteered for - Search & Rescue has only one, indeed simple, instruction : "Find them!"

But to do that we first need some sort of Master List folks can compare their collections and apply knowledge to.


Avagart

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Re: Roguelike Archive
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2015, 09:12:53 PM »
Do you want to get every version of every roguelike (like ToME in reddit's torrent), or just most recent release?

akeley

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Re: Roguelike Archive
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2015, 09:41:48 PM »
Good question, one of which I was mulling over last few days.

Future-proof answer is: yes. The realistic, for-now answer: to some extent.

So, in the long run - absolutely, wherever available. We have to think ahead, say 100 years from now somebody wants to go over the evolution of Armoured Commander...I know I`d love it! It could be also educational for present/future devs and also sometimes just fun - I heard some older versions of DF are amazing and on the other hand I am worried about some changes that apparently are happening in DCSS. And somebody else might reverse that example. Bottom line: we gotta catch`em all!

However, this is  of course another big task. For now, I will just concentrate on latest versions - my ideal is the ol` 1G1R  maxim - "one game one rom" from other archiving scenes. It means that main directory will only contain archives with latest versions - all others will be delegated to a separate Versions directory. This way it`ll be easier to download what you want (some people won`t be interested) and keep size and clutter at bay.

Once the 1G1R core is stable we can start looking for older versions, perhaps asking the devs and other collectors.

Ancient

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Re: Roguelike Archive
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2015, 10:30:59 PM »
That reddit also has other flaws. Namely it does not have games which build under windows but are distributed as sources. Tied looking for Quest for Pants, Kitty Underground and COSE (Champion of the Savarian Empires) but found nothing. On second thought it has my game, so I cannot say I dislike it. :-)

Good luck on your quest Akeley!
Michał Bieliński, reviewer for Temple of the Roguelike

Avagart

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Re: Roguelike Archive
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2015, 11:29:46 PM »
Hm, I have binary versions of some games made in python which were distributed only as source (Deathdealer, Trinkets, Idle Hero, Sunstorm... and probably several more).

@akeley - absolutely agree with your opinion (especially about DCSS - I really don't understand 'flows' of development and keep latest releases of every major version).
So, you wrote about making lists. If you doesn't like using google apps - how this can be organized if not in google sheet? Should I sent you excel document via email, or so?

akeley

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Re: Roguelike Archive
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2015, 11:37:14 PM »
Okay, here`s how the whole thing looks at the moment

Roguelike Archive aim: to collect every single roguelike ever released.

Simple statement, insta problem. Yes, commercial games will have to be excluded for obvious reasons...though as a completist and an old pirate, I say it with kinda heavy heart. The commercial games will be fully documented in the database though. As for the "olden", abandonware titles - well, will have to deal with these on case by case basis.

The collection will be released both in torrent and  perhaps also downloadable archive format (depending on circumstances).

DIRECTORY STRUCTURE - sort of a cross between Roguetemple db and my HDD one.

[   DOC] - any documentation unrelated directly to particular titles. Tech and non-tech alike. Articles, blogs, cover art, sites, forums - anything goes. Plus all the master lists.

[7HDRL] - 7HR, 7D and any other competition RL
[Alpha] - all the alphas
[Beta+Stable] - all the betas and stable versions
[Demo] - all the demos
[Originals] - all the original archives/files exactly as obtained from whatever sources. No changes, no fancy naming, 100% organic.
[Proto] - anything hard to classify - tbh not sure what could go in this dir or if it will be named that or even feature at all. Original thought was it`d be for pre-alphas or just some...drafts? but not sure if such exist.
[Source] - all the sources we can obtain
[Version] - mentioned in previous post - all the versions we can obtain
[???] - any ideas?

Defunct games - it`s a "type"  in Temple`s database, here I changed it to just a "status" - meaning there won`t be a separate directory. It`s a tough one...but overall I think it works better. So, you can have an alpha or a beta beta that is "defunct" -  it`s one of the flags in the naming system.

Playability - is my main concern in building this db, basically I love to know how many playable RLs are out there, and also it`d be great just to unpack the dir and know what kinda stuff is there. This more or less governs the above structure, I also would like to add a flag ["p" or "playable"] to the games in alpha section later - many of them play as well (or better?) as betas. Overall it`s a tricky field (define playable?), but I just assume for the sanity`s sake that all the [beta+stable] games are "playable" - but so is lots of alphas.  For that flag player`s feedback and opinion would be needed - later.

Alpha-Beta-Stable chain obviously fluctuates over time. Updates ahoy!

Ok, sit tight now, deep breath, etc..
There will be a traditional - non-traditional divide inside main [Alpha+B/S] directories at least. At the moment I have a Lite directory inside each of these, trad RLs are in the main. Criteria is simple: turn-based/permadeath/procedural.

The explanation: I want to know at a glance what do I have and access it accordingly, and for me personally this is a preferred setup and classification.  It`s not to cause or further any argument, prove some points or promote any interpretations. The divide is not a diss or a slight by any means. Please note: there are no separate RL/ RLite torrents, just one big ass Roguelike Archive and thats all there is to it.

Still hate it? Okay:

It`s all easily adjustable. Simply mark/move all from the Lite dir into the main, done. Don`t like alpha/beta distinction? Pour it all into one dir.

GAME ARCHIVE STRUCTURE
I`v chosen 7zip as a main compression tool. If anyone has better idea I`m willing to listen as my decision is only vaguely informed - it`s open source, seems to have a decent ratio and these days most other packers recognize it too. But I don`t know really if that`s the best idea.

Games will be re-packed with no changes from original archive apart from one: I will add a [  Doc] directory containing whatever info regarding this particular title I can find. At first it`s mainly from Roguebasin/game`s website (if differ from internal game docs) but later on we can add anything - guides/reviews/spoilers etc we can find.

This is a questionable decision as many people might balk at having an "alien" dir inside the game proper. However from experience with other sets i know a separate mammoth Doc dir is a pain...and I always wish I had all the info in the game`s directory itself (1stWRLDPRBLM detected, yes). Again though, for those who can`t stomach it, a simple solution: unpack everything - treat the lot with a good file finder ([  Doc] is distinct enough) - hit delete - repack - done. Tested this in Total Commander, it`s a breeze.

NAMING CONVENTION

Why bother? Well, things get messy otherwise plus we need to able to search. there will be hundreds of games - probably under 1500, not as bad as ZX Spectrum or MSDOS collections (5 digit numbers) but still. Also, the games will escape their native directories eventually and then naming+flags can be quite helpful.

Inspired by TOSEC et al, but I want to keep it much simpler, since their names can get to a silly novella-grade sometime. So, for example:

Abura Tan v0.A11 [alpha][src][DOS][def].7z

Hopefully it won`t get longer than that. Again, playability is my yardstick, I want to know as much about it just by looking at a name. So, [alpha/beta/stable] - [src] only for sources - [platform] (here Win will be a default and the flag only appears for other platforms) - [def] for defunct (again only appears if that`s the case, "live" is assumed default)

And again: hate it? Purge it! (I might do it myself in personal HDD...names-sans-flags definitely looks cuter). The flags are easy to search & destroy in a single swoop (Total Commander plug again....well, it IS the best tool for Win ever :)

Thats that for now. I will post my spreadsheet/db examples over the weekend on my site hopefully. Again, kudos to people behind the Roguetemple database - I was always mesmerized by how brilliant it is and now it comes fully to life again - exporting is super easy and thoroughness staggering. Without it this project would be hardly possible.

All comments and suggestions and customary RT scalding/tumbleweed are more than welcome ;)

Quendus

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Re: Roguelike Archive
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2015, 03:13:42 PM »
The reddit torrent was uh... kinda weak (as measured by the super scientific metric of how many of my roguelikes it included), so a more completist effort sounds like a great idea. I'd be happy to help (or try to) with windows and linux builds and/or archive digging.

Even of other people's games.

Ancient

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Re: Roguelike Archive
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2015, 01:10:33 AM »
[DOC] - any documentation unrelated directly to particular titles. Tech and non-tech alike.
Reviews! Those tend to disappear over time or get buried too deep in archves. Even roguetemple lost at least one permanently.

[Demo] - all the demos
What goes here? Crippleware of commercial games, or games so alpha to be practically unplayable? What about releases meant to be tech demos of an engine for roguelike?

[Originals] - all the original archives/files exactly as obtained from whatever sources. No changes, no fancy naming, 100% organic.
This practically means one subdirectory per archive to guard against naming clashes. In the old days "game.zip" and "roguelike.zip" were somewhat popular names for archives. Oh, also "source.tar.gz".

[Proto] - anything hard to classify - tbh not sure what could go in this dir or if it will be named that or even feature at all. Original thought was it`d be for pre-alphas or just some...drafts? but not sure if such exist.
Just see this as an example of pre-alpha. My heretical opinion is such things are unworthy of preserving.

There will be a traditional - non-traditional divide inside main [Alpha+B/S] directories at least.
Heartily approved, although I would name them roguelike and not-a-roguelike. Probably that gets me even more harsh stares than your idea of a divide.

I will add a [Doc] directory containing whatever info regarding this particular title I can find.
What about games already having a directory named doc? This is pretty much a standard for games releasing for something besides Windows. Do you add there or make a [_Doc] directory?

(tagging)[src] only for sources
Is this not redundant with them being in source directory? Or do you mean games that pack sources with binary in one archive?
Michał Bieliński, reviewer for Temple of the Roguelike