Author Topic: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 15.1)  (Read 25487 times)

Aukustus

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Re: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 4.0)
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2015, 02:29:49 PM »
I figured out the way to make the menus usable by arrow keys: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/95372567/ArrowMenu.png

I'm not sure should I keep the menus usable with key characters too. Then I'd miss the awesome pentagram selector.

Samildanach

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Re: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 4.0)
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2015, 04:48:55 PM »
Just downloaded the newest version. How in the hell do I pick things up? I'm sure it used to be , but I've just tried every key on my keyboard (I think) including accidentally praying and I just can't pick up items. Also, no help text? No keybindings? ???

Edit: Ok, the help is on the title screen. Enter to pick things up? That really needs to be clearer, since it's a non-standard key for the genre. You also really, really need to have the help text available in-game. Having to exit to the title screen to look up keybindings is ridiculous.

Still, it's good to see the game progressing. :)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 04:51:48 PM by Samildanach »

Aukustus

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Re: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 4.0)
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2015, 05:33:04 PM »
Just downloaded the newest version. How in the hell do I pick things up? I'm sure it used to be , but I've just tried every key on my keyboard (I think) including accidentally praying and I just can't pick up items. Also, no help text? No keybindings? ???

Edit: Ok, the help is on the title screen. Enter to pick things up? That really needs to be clearer, since it's a non-standard key for the genre. You also really, really need to have the help text available in-game. Having to exit to the title screen to look up keybindings is ridiculous.

Still, it's good to see the game progressing. :)

I simplified stuff to make every action usable with Enter. I kind of disagree with having each key on keyboard used.

Do you think having help menu binded to '?' would do the trick?

Edit: Thing is, I'm really open to suggestions, but it's I'm not getting any. There probably are a lot of stuff broken or whatever unintuitive but feedback like yours helps me out.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 05:35:07 PM by Aukustus »

Samildanach

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Re: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 4.0)
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2015, 07:27:29 PM »
Just downloaded the newest version. How in the hell do I pick things up? I'm sure it used to be , but I've just tried every key on my keyboard (I think) including accidentally praying and I just can't pick up items. Also, no help text? No keybindings? ???

Edit: Ok, the help is on the title screen. Enter to pick things up? That really needs to be clearer, since it's a non-standard key for the genre. You also really, really need to have the help text available in-game. Having to exit to the title screen to look up keybindings is ridiculous.

Still, it's good to see the game progressing. :)

I simplified stuff to make every action usable with Enter. I kind of disagree with having each key on keyboard used.

Do you think having help menu binded to '?' would do the trick?

Edit: Thing is, I'm really open to suggestions, but it's I'm not getting any. There probably are a lot of stuff broken or whatever unintuitive but feedback like yours helps me out.

It's fine to have unorthodox controls, and I agree with cutting out all the overwhelming different keys, but when a genre has certain 'standard' controls, you need an easily accessible help text if yours are different. It's like if a first person shooter used the mouse to walk around and WASD to aim - you'd expect the game to say so somewhere because it's so unusual. By all means use enter if you wish, but have a help text right there in the game. Using ? is standard for roguelikes, of course, but some games use h (for 'help') or just offer controls as an option in the Esc menu.

As to the decision to use Enter, to my mind it's a little odd. Think about how a player's hands sit on the keyboard. If movement is with numpad, then the right hand will be over there on the numpad. Enter is also on the right hand side of the keyboard. No one naturally sits with both hands on the right hand side, so it feels a little awkward. To hit Enter with my left hand, I have to swing my left arm right across my body. Bleh! To my mind, it makes more sense to have everything except movement set over to the left, so it can comfortably be used with the left hand. My suggestion for a general 'use' key would be Space. Large button, prominently positioned, easy to reach with the left hand.

While we're on the topic of usability, the shop menus are a little awkward. You buy an item and get booted right back to the beginning dialogue again, which means if you want to buy, say, 3 health potions, you have far too many key presses because you're going through the "I want to buy something" etc dialogue from the beginning for every single one of those potions.

All of this is just my opinion, of course. I can speak for no one but myself.

Aukustus

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Re: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 4.0)
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2015, 07:45:06 PM »
Just downloaded the newest version. How in the hell do I pick things up? I'm sure it used to be , but I've just tried every key on my keyboard (I think) including accidentally praying and I just can't pick up items. Also, no help text? No keybindings? ???

Edit: Ok, the help is on the title screen. Enter to pick things up? That really needs to be clearer, since it's a non-standard key for the genre. You also really, really need to have the help text available in-game. Having to exit to the title screen to look up keybindings is ridiculous.

Still, it's good to see the game progressing. :)

I simplified stuff to make every action usable with Enter. I kind of disagree with having each key on keyboard used.

Do you think having help menu binded to '?' would do the trick?

Edit: Thing is, I'm really open to suggestions, but it's I'm not getting any. There probably are a lot of stuff broken or whatever unintuitive but feedback like yours helps me out.

It's fine to have unorthodox controls, and I agree with cutting out all the overwhelming different keys, but when a genre has certain 'standard' controls, you need an easily accessible help text if yours are different. It's like if a first person shooter used the mouse to walk around and WASD to aim - you'd expect the game to say so somewhere because it's so unusual. By all means use enter if you wish, but have a help text right there in the game. Using ? is standard for roguelikes, of course, but some games use h (for 'help') or just offer controls as an option in the Esc menu.

As to the decision to use Enter, to my mind it's a little odd. Think about how a player's hands sit on the keyboard. If movement is with numpad, then the right hand will be over there on the numpad. Enter is also on the right hand side of the keyboard. No one naturally sits with both hands on the right hand side, so it feels a little awkward. To hit Enter with my left hand, I have to swing my left arm right across my body. Bleh! To my mind, it makes more sense to have everything except movement set over to the left, so it can comfortably be used with the left hand. My suggestion for a general 'use' key would be Space. Large button, prominently positioned, easy to reach with the left hand.

While we're on the topic of usability, the shop menus are a little awkward. You buy an item and get booted right back to the beginning dialogue again, which means if you want to buy, say, 3 health potions, you have far too many key presses because you're going through the "I want to buy something" etc dialogue from the beginning for every single one of those potions.

All of this is just my opinion, of course. I can speak for no one but myself.

Numpad's enter works as an action key too. At least my pinky rests on it, and index finger is literally 0.5 cm away from regular enter. But I get your point. I could have the action key both on enter and space.

The shop is something that could have lets say "buy 2 buy 3" etc. choices.

Now that I today finished the menus usable with arrow keys, they work too with 8 and 2 on numpad, it feels very natural with using 8 and 2 and then pinky on enter accepting the selected line on dialogues/whateversimilarstuff.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 07:49:42 PM by Aukustus »

akeley

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Re: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 4.0)
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2015, 10:32:58 PM »
I agree about help screen - it needs to be "inside" the game. I was fine with the controls though - the numpad movement+wait on num5+kpd enter for action works great.
Of course the ideal would be fully redefinable keys but that`s another story. One thing thats bit weird thou is to have Esc for both quitting menus/conversations and also to quit the game. Think once or twice i actually did quit by mistake (I know there`s y/n but absent minded folk like me will press it as a kneejerk reaction sometime)

I was about to post something since v 2.0 but somehow got delayed...probably being busy moaning/requesting on other RL dev threads. I like the old school feel of your game and wanted to play around but had a big problem from the start - where is that bleedin` Temple itself? This is probably something silly but...I go talk to the mayor, he says "I will mark the location on your map", I go outside and there`s nothing. Then I start looking "south east of the village" and usually die form hunger (btw having a character die from starvation because pressing Inventory to get to a food ration counts as a turn is a bit too hardcore methinks :P)

Now I remember that few times I actually found some ruins SE and got into a dungeon - but mostly there`s nothing. Have I not met some condition or doing something wrong in general?

Other thing is the quest givers are scattered bit too much - a gripe in a roguelike if you have to go the same long route to visit them after dying again and again.

And a real bug: game crashes when trying to get a quest in Laketown (after pressing a in conversation)


Aukustus

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Re: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 4.0)
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2015, 10:48:30 PM »

I was about to post something since v 2.0 but somehow got delayed...probably being busy moaning/requesting on other RL dev threads. I like the old school feel of your game and wanted to play around but had a big problem from the start - where is that bleedin` Temple itself? This is probably something silly but...I go talk to the mayor, he says "I will mark the location on your map", I go outside and there`s nothing. Then I start looking "south east of the village" and usually die form hunger (btw having a character die from starvation because pressing Inventory to get to a food ration counts as a turn is a bit too hardcore methinks :P)

Now I remember that few times I actually found some ruins SE and got into a dungeon - but mostly there`s nothing. Have I not met some condition or doing something wrong in general?

I like the idea that opening an inventory counts as a turn because in real-life you would need to use time to open your backpack :).

You should find a location called the Ruins of Undershire, it's added to your map after talking to the mayor and is actually on the other side of the river than the Village of Marwal. The Temple is the dungeon starting from the church building in the Ruins of Undershire.

Location after revealed on the map: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/95372567/UndershireLocation.png


Other thing is the quest givers are scattered bit too much - a gripe in a roguelike if you have to go the same long route to visit them after dying again and again.

And a real bug: game crashes when trying to get a quest in Laketown (after pressing a in conversation)

I'm going for a full CRPG route for my game, so it should feel like a old school rpg, thus having long walks :). But I get the idea of the issue.

That bug bothers me. Where is it actually?

Samildanach

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Re: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 4.0)
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2015, 11:07:59 PM »
This is probably something silly but...I go talk to the mayor, he says "I will mark the location on your map", I go outside and there`s nothing.

It's there, it's just very hard to see. It was a lot more conspicuous in earlier versions. In the current version the temple/Undershire looks like a patch of grass. It's on the east/northeast-ish bank of the water and you have to make a pretty long trek around the south side to get there. It seems a good idea to pick up a scroll of recall in Marwal so you can get back without starving to death on the way.

It's a bit of a nuisance having to go into town and talk to people at the start of every single game. I tend to think that if you're replaying a lot, then the beginning of the game should be the least repetitive part since it's the one you'll replay the most. Still, that's just my impatience. The same sort of thing annoys me about ADOM, Angband and various others.

Numpad's enter works as an action key too. At least my pinky rests on it, and index finger is literally 0.5 cm away from regular enter.

Interesting. I can see how that would work. I've literally never used numpad Enter for anything, ever, so I tend to forget it's even there. I'll try using that and see how it feels. As to main Enter being not too far from the index finger, that may be true but in my view there should be nothing that requires me to move my right hand off the numpad. I hate having to move my hand back and forth. It's one of the reasons I have considerable distaste for games which include partial mouse control - if I have to move my hand back and forth between the numpad and something else, I'll get cross. Pet peeve, I guess.

It struck me while playing today that I really like the aesthetic of the game. It reminds me a little of Lord of the Rings on the SNES (not a good game but I liked the atmosphere) and a little of the Fighting Fantasy gamebooks. I also like the way ranged combat works - f and Space, nice and neat. I find the ranger is by far my most effective class. Load up on arrows at Marwal and shoot my way through! I still don't get far though. ;D
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 11:13:18 PM by Samildanach »

Aukustus

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Re: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 4.0)
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2015, 11:18:51 PM »

It's a bit of a nuisance having to go into town and talk to people at the start of every single game. I tend to think that if you're replaying a lot, then the beginning of the game should be the least repetitive part since it's the one you'll replay the most. Still, that's just my impatience. The same sort of thing annoys me about ADOM, Angband and various others.


My design background lies more in the D&D RPGs around 1997-2002 than roguelike genre so it will definitively be repetitive if starting over and over again often, however, none of those RPGs had permadeath, so plot-wise my RPG is designed to be played without permadeath. Hardcore (permadeath) is then there for extra challenge.

It struck me while playing today that I really like the aesthetic of the game. It reminds me a little of Lord of the Rings on the SNES (not a good game but I liked the atmosphere) and a little of the Fighting Fantasy gamebooks. I also like the way ranged combat works - f and Space, nice and neat. I find the ranger is by far my most effective class. Load up on arrows at Marwal and shoot my way through! I still don't get far though. ;D

I'm really trying to make the game really accessible in every way, not just in key commands. I'm really staying far from open-door-get-crushed-by-it-collapsing situations and such :).

Aukustus

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Re: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 4.0)
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2015, 11:22:48 PM »
And a real bug: game crashes when trying to get a quest in Laketown (after pressing a in conversation)

Found and fixed for the next release.

Samildanach

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Re: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 4.0)
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2015, 10:56:27 AM »
...plot-wise my RPG is designed to be played without permadeath.

Ah, I see. I was playing it as a roguelike.

Aukustus

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Re: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 4.0)
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2015, 12:40:36 PM »
...plot-wise my RPG is designed to be played without permadeath.

Ah, I see. I was playing it as a roguelike.

It is/will be a full RPG experience in a roguelike engine.

Aukustus

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Re: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 4.0)
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2015, 07:47:29 PM »
Figured out how to create a mouse movement:


Aukustus

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Re: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 4.0)
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2015, 12:41:54 AM »
I managed to implement a fully mouse compatible UI:

  • Targeting line will be drawn to the coordinates where the mouse points
  • Menus work with wheel up / down and left button
  • Right mouse button doubles as a action key
  • Pressing left button down will make the character to move to the coordinates with A*

So simply pointing a item on the ground somewhere far away and pressing continuously the left button will cause the character to move towards it and when standing over it pressing right button will pick it up. Also melee combat works by clicking the target.

Of course mouse will be optional, not mandatory way of playing the game.

Aukustus

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Re: The Temple of Torment (Now at Stable 4.0)
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2015, 06:38:01 PM »
Beginning of a mouse based GUI (obviously system cursor is hidden in screenshot):


Path highlighting (optional), only the last pentagram is drawn as a in-game cursor if path highlight is disabled.
Buttons at the top right corner
Object names appear next to cursor when placing mouse above them