Author Topic: Rogue - let's beat it  (Read 27552 times)

LazyCat

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #225 on: August 06, 2016, 01:41:00 PM »
There are two possible issues here.

1. Monsters always get a to-hit bonus when attacking the player.

If you work through the numbers in the Vade-Mecum's sections on fighting and armor, you'll see that it describes the +4 bonus.  See in particular the part about how much AC is needed to block all hits from Hobgoblins.  If the mechanics have always been that way, to the point where they're described in the Vade-Mecum, I'm not going to call it a bug.

While the authors may not always have understood why their code did what it did, a 20% increase in monster accuracy has a significant effect, one that they and their lab of playtesters would have noticed.  It may have been introduced by accident, but it remained deliberately, and became part of the balance of the game.

I get what you're saying but it should be clear if the original intention was for monsters to get the bonus all the time there wouldn't be any test against ISRUN flag.

Regarding historicity of it, it seems to me you give too much credit to some random people I think we don't know who they actually are, and I don't see a reason why should their version of the game be taken as the reference.

Why not Epyx DOS version be the reference? Even better, Mac or Atari ST versions as they came later and likely were more refined and more bug-fixed, plus they were made by the actual original authors of the game.


Quote
2. The player never gets the bonus, even when attacking a sleeping monster.

If this is happening, it is definitely a bug.

It is happening. Simple solution is to move the call to runto() function from the beginning of the fight() function to its end.

This makes it obvious the whole addition of "to-hit bonus" feature in v4 was half-assed. Instead of giving the player slightly better chance of fighting monsters, it made already hard game not just harder but also unfair.

I also think this shows your reasoning regarding historical preservation is flawed. You could just as well say you want to preserve this bug for the same reasons you want to preserve the first bug. The flaw is not in your desire to keep it historically accurate, the problem is in choosing which version to take as a proper historical reference.

Vanguard

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 1112
    • View Profile
Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #226 on: August 06, 2016, 06:32:18 PM »
It's clearly a bug rather than an intended feature, but it's still part of the game people have been playing for 30 years.  Rogue v5 without the ISRUN bug isn't Rogue v5 anymore.  It might be a better game than Rogue v5 but it's not the same game people have been playing for decades and beating it isn't the same achievement.

As for me, I'm going to chicken out and play v3 instead.

Squeeealer

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #227 on: August 06, 2016, 08:16:47 PM »
Just got done playing and had a run with a staff of lightning with three charges. First charge defeated a Troll.  Second and third charges also connected and combined to beat a Troll. Nice  8)

elwin

  • Priest
  • **
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
    • Roguelike Gallery
Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #228 on: August 07, 2016, 01:30:47 AM »
I get what you're saying but it should be clear if the original intention was for monsters to get the bonus all the time there wouldn't be any test against ISRUN flag.
I know.  Sometimes I think I should have fixed the broken flag instead of excising it.  I'll experiment and see how much difference it really makes.

Quote
Regarding historicity of it, it seems to me you give too much credit to some random people I think we don't know who they actually are, and I don't see a reason why should their version of the game be taken as the reference.

Why not Epyx DOS version be the reference? Even better, Mac or Atari ST versions as they came later and likely were more refined and more bug-fixed, plus they were made by the actual original authors of the game.

There is one good reason to use Unix Rogue, and that is that we have legitimate copies of its source code.

Quote
I also think this shows your reasoning regarding historical preservation is flawed. You could just as well say you want to preserve this bug for the same reasons you want to preserve the first bug. The flaw is not in your desire to keep it historically accurate, the problem is in choosing which version to take as a proper historical reference.
I would not say that trying to preserve Unix Rogue as it was distributed with BSD is an inherently flawed goal.  It is a real historical game, as much as PC Rogue, Mac Rogue, or Atari Rogue, though it differs from them.  Transforming it into one of them is an ambitious project, and probably a valuable one, but it's a different project.
Roguelike Gallery: play Rogue online.  SSH or in browser.

LazyCat

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #229 on: August 07, 2016, 02:04:52 AM »
I would not say that trying to preserve Unix Rogue as it was distributed with BSD is an inherently flawed goal.  It is a real historical game, as much as PC Rogue, Mac Rogue, or Atari Rogue, though it differs from them.  Transforming it into one of them is an ambitious project, and probably a valuable one, but it's a different project.

https://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/NetBSD-release-7/src/games/rogue/

This BSD distribution looks quite different than v3/v4/v5 branch. Do you know how v3/v4/v5 came about and how come it differs from that BSD version? Was any of the original, actual authors still involved at the time v3/v4/v5 was released? Or was it that at the time any of them were still involved it was with the branch from that NetBSD link above?

Do you know which of these two versions was distributed more and played by more people throughout the years, or could it actually be Rogue Clone that was distributed and played the most?

LazyCat

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #230 on: August 07, 2016, 02:20:44 AM »
It's clearly a bug rather than an intended feature, but it's still part of the game people have been playing for 30 years.  Rogue v5 without the ISRUN bug isn't Rogue v5 anymore.  It might be a better game than Rogue v5 but it's not the same game people have been playing for decades and beating it isn't the same achievement.

As for me, I'm going to chicken out and play v3 instead.

You seem to think v5 is the most spread out version and thus played by the most people throughout the years. Do you actually know this to be true? I do not know, but my impression was that it is a version produced by some random people only after any of the original, actual authors were involved, and I think it's questionable how much widespread it really is. But again, I don't really know, and I would like to know.


Vanguard

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 1112
    • View Profile
Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #231 on: August 07, 2016, 04:06:42 AM »
That has nothing to do with my point, but v5 was made by the original authors.  It's the final release of the the original Unix version of Rogue.

LazyCat

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #232 on: August 07, 2016, 07:25:23 AM »
That has nothing to do with my point, but v5 was made by the original authors.  It's the final release of the the original Unix version of Rogue.

Your point seems contradictory. You first say leave the bugs, but then you also say you will not play it.

It is true, Rogue v5 without ISRUN bug isn't Rogue v5 any more. But neither was Rogue v3 anymore when it became Rogue v4.
So how about we fix v5 bugs and call it v6, then this v6 could be the reference point for everyone and the most played version in the next 20 years. Doesn't that make more sense than sticking with bugs or rolling back to some old version?

Vanguard

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 1112
    • View Profile
Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #233 on: August 07, 2016, 07:33:26 AM »
I found out that there's a way to get permanent haste in v3.  I assume it's a bug.  It's probably something similar to the ISRUN situation.  Don't know if it works in other versions.  And with that said...



I wouldn't blame someone if they didn't consider this a legitimate win, but it's good enough for me.  I don't want to play any more Rogue.

Permahaste aside, I had extremely good luck in that run.  I found the only two handed sword I've ever seen in v3 and the only scroll of genocide I've seen in any version.  I used it on umber hulks, of course.  I also had really nice armor that was at one point enchanted all the way to AC -1 (the equivalent of AC 11 in v5). 

I had beaten a xorn in a fight before I was able to trigger permanent haste (I had triggered it in one prior game), and I considered not doing it because that character might have been strong enough to win without it, but in the end I decided to play it safe.

I don't know if I'd recommend playing v3 for a lower difficulty.  The absence of the ISRUN bug makes a huge difference, but v3 doesn't have some of the useful items in later versions, and umber hulks/medusas are even more hardcore than they are in v4 and v5.  Two handed swords seem much more rare as well.  Most importantly, it's just not as fun or polished as later versions.

Vanguard

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 1112
    • View Profile
Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #234 on: August 07, 2016, 07:42:29 AM »
Your point seems contradictory. You first say leave the bugs, but then you also say you will not play it.

It is true, Rogue v5 without ISRUN bug isn't Rogue v5 any more. But neither was Rogue v3 anymore when it became Rogue v4.
So how about we fix v5 bugs and call it v6, then this v6 could be the reference point for everyone and the most played version in the next 20 years. Doesn't that make more sense than sticking with bugs or rolling back to some old version?

Anything that presents itself as Rogue v5 should keep whatever bugs were present in Rogue v5.  For your new variant you should, of course, fix the ISRUN bug.  It will be a better game without it.  But as I said before, I think the only reason to play Rogue is for its historical value.  Now there are dozens of excellent roguelikes that blow the original away.

LazyCat

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #235 on: August 07, 2016, 02:01:49 PM »
I wouldn't blame someone if they didn't consider this a legitimate win, but it's good enough for me.

Congratulations. I'd say it counts, as far as v3 goes, but of course it doesn't compare to Squeeealer's miraculous victory in v5.

LazyCat

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #236 on: August 07, 2016, 02:18:37 PM »
So I discovered the NetBSD Rogue link I posted earlier is actually Rogue Clone.

- "The 'Rogue' that many users play is not Toy's and Wichman's original game, nor is it a port of that game, but it is a reimplementation of that game called a Rogue clone... The source code of one such clone found its way its way into the Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD) at about 1987, and both FreeBSD and NetBSD continue to distribute it today."
http://gaming.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue

- "I wrote this code (Rogue Clone) out of disgust for the inexcusable number of bugs that rogue 5.3 is famous for... "
http://www.mobygames.com/game/rogue-clone


Elwin, in case you want to host Rogue Clone on your website here is the Linux port:
https://github.com/qbradq/rogue-clone

Vanguard

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 1112
    • View Profile
Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #237 on: August 07, 2016, 08:14:55 PM »
Congratulations. I'd say it counts, as far as v3 goes, but of course it doesn't compare to Squeeealer's miraculous victory in v5.

Thanks.  And yeah, clearly any win that abuses permahaste is far less impressive than one that doesn't.

Squeeealer

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #238 on: August 07, 2016, 11:33:10 PM »
Spent some time reveling in my victory. Ahh, glory days... here's a fight summary of the tough floors.

13 - Troll - slow
13 - Troll - normal
13 - Troll - slow
14 - Troll - normal
15 - (was blind and hallucinating for a while)
15 - Troll - normal
16 - Phantom x3 - normal
17 - Troll - normal
18 - Phantom, Xeroc, Flytrap - normal
21 - Black Unicorn - slow
21 - Phantom - normal
21 - Griffin - slow
21 - Griffin - slow
21 - Vampire - normal (lost 3 max HP)
21 - Medusa - normal (while confused in hallway)
21 - Vampire - normal (lost 3 max HP)
21 - Vampire - normal
23 - Griffin - poly (to Emu)
24 - Medusa - normal (monster detection)
24 - (found second poly)
24 - Xeroc x2 - normal
24 - Griffin - slow
24 - Black Unicorn - normal
24 - Black Unicorn - slow
24 - Vampire - normal
24 - Jabberwock - poly (to Phantom - normal)
25 - Vampire x2 - normal
25 - Medusa - normal (in hallway)
26 - Griffin - slow
26 - Medusa - normal (backpedaling)
26 - Black Unicorn - slow (final slow charge)
25 - use final light charge
24 - Vampire - normal
22 - Dragon - poly x3 (to Griffin to Jabberwock to Phantom - normal) I just realized the Jabberwock probably would have sat still.
22 - Wraith - normal (weakened once, but came out +2 max HP)
22 - Dragon - poly (to Xeroc - normal) (after monster detection)
22 - Jabberwock - poly (to Snake)
21 - Troll - normal
21 - Griffin - poly (to Hobgoblin)
20 - Vampire - normal
19 - Troll - normal

I also realized I was doing the doorway strategy wrong. I was supposed to sit on space in from the threshold, not ON the threshold.

Is there a way I can post a video on the run on youtube? Maybe we can direct some traffic to elwin's site. Also, when I watch the ttyrec it's kind of a jumbled mess. Is that true for everyone or am I doing something wrong?

Squeeealer

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #239 on: August 08, 2016, 03:42:49 PM »
More cruelty...

I had the best run ever last night in terms of HP gains. I had a ridiculously high amount by exp level 8. In the high 70s perhaps. But the run had zero chance. I still had my base mace, I found no potions of STR, and I had no get out of jail free cards except a pair of scrolls of teleportation. I had absolutely no answer for Trolls, so as soon as I faced one I teleported right next to a Venus Flytrap. I tested my unidentified wand on him and it was a wand of haste. I burned my other scroll of teleportation to get the heck out of there and it teleported me right back to the Troll. No chance.

And just had yet another run ruined by Rattlesnakes.