Author Topic: Rogue - let's beat it  (Read 27278 times)

TheCreator

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2015, 09:39:10 AM »
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What is happening when I read a scroll and it says I feel a strange sense of loss?
That sounds like a scroll of scare monster, a very powerful item that's used in an unconventional way. See here a spoily page that describes how to use it, among other things (scroll down a bit to get to the relevant bits).

No it doesn't. Is sounds like you have missed an opportunity to get something very powerful or valuable. I haven't played too much Rogue so I don't really know what type of scroll it was, but in general, classic roguelike game messages are meaningful and can serve as hints.
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AgingMinotaur

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2015, 10:09:57 AM »
Sorry, my bad. That would be a scroll of enchant weapon (or something along those lines?) Scare monster produces "a maniacal laughter" instead, if you read it.

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Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2015, 07:58:18 PM »
Yes, levitation.  It is so rare that I would need to levitate over a known trap.  Kind of a junk potion, then.  I will say, when a trap of teleportation is in the doorway to the room that has the stairs, THEN it would really be helpful!

As far as scroll of monster confusion - YES, that is how to use it.  Read the scroll and it says my hands turn red.  What I should have asked is how to use a scroll of monster hold.  Do I just read it and ALL monsters on the floor are frozen for a short period?

I had a series of good runs this weekend including my first ever meeting with and eventual death to a Medusa.  I honestly don't see a way to beat her without some sort of action that short-circuits her ability to confuse/freeze me.  Considering I met her in a hallway, I was doomed. I also had my first run where I was able to get up to a strength of 20.

In my version of this game it is apparent to me that the amount of food I have in inventory can affect whether food appears on the next floor. Because of this, I have started eating my food just before I descend to the next floor to improve my chances of finding more food.

After rereading some posts, I think I've figured out that to use a bow I just need to equip it, then throw the arrows. I kept thinking that throwing an arrow would still throw it instead of firing it with my bow. Now that I've learned this I have had much better luck surviving Hobgoblins at low levels because arrows are so much more effective with the bow. They have also been a huge help against stationary enemies like Ice Monsters, Leprechauns, Nymphs (and their drops!), and any other monsters starting from a stationary position.


elwin

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2015, 08:44:44 PM »
What I should have asked is how to use a scroll of monster hold.  Do I just read it and ALL monsters on the floor are frozen for a short period?

No, only the monsters within 2 spaces of you. If there are none you get the "sense of loss" message.

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What is happening when I use a wand and it says I feel a tingling sensation?  It must be different than when my nose tingles because it does not help me find food, so something else must be going on.

That's a wand of drain life, a powerful but risky item. It only works when there are monsters in sight.

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In my version of this game it is apparent to me that the amount of food I have in inventory can affect whether food appears on the next floor. Because of this, I have started eating my food just before I descend to the next floor to improve my chances of finding more food.

Are you sure the amount of food in your inventory is the reason? In most versions, a food ration is guaranteed if no food was generated on the previous three levels.

If you've reached Medusas on level 18, you're doing quite well. (Here are some statistics for comparison.) Surviving the rest of the game requires a large amount of luck. I hope you make it!
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Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2015, 02:26:35 PM »
What I should have asked is how to use a scroll of monster hold.  Do I just read it and ALL monsters on the floor are frozen for a short period?

No, only the monsters within 2 spaces of you. If there are none you get the "sense of loss" message.

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What is happening when I use a wand and it says I feel a tingling sensation?  It must be different than when my nose tingles because it does not help me find food, so something else must be going on.

That's a wand of drain life, a powerful but risky item. It only works when there are monsters in sight.

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In my version of this game it is apparent to me that the amount of food I have in inventory can affect whether food appears on the next floor. Because of this, I have started eating my food just before I descend to the next floor to improve my chances of finding more food.

Are you sure the amount of food in your inventory is the reason? In most versions, a food ration is guaranteed if no food was generated on the previous three levels.

If you've reached Medusas on level 18, you're doing quite well. (Here are some statistics for comparison.) Surviving the rest of the game requires a large amount of luck. I hope you make it!

Wow, good stuff. Any idea how long enemies are held once you use a scroll of hold monster?

No, I am not sure about my claims about rations. But it is extremely rare that I get Weak status with no food in my inventory. In all my runs I have only twice died of starvation, and that was in situations where I had trouble finding hidden passageways. Far more often I have five or more unused rations by the time I die.

Thanks for the support and statistics. Learning how to use the bow really advanced my game. To keep improving I need to learn what each item, scroll, enemy, etc. does. I know some versions have identify scrolls that allow you to identify whatever you want with them. I might have to try that sometime.

One final question for this post - when you level up, are there any hidden attributes that get bumped up? For example, we see that our HP goes up anywhere from 1-10ish. Does our strength or attack power or defense or dexterity/stealth go up and we just can't view it? Like when we put on a Ring of Stealth or Dexterity there's not really a way to visually see the affects on our attributes, right?

elwin

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2015, 07:01:28 PM »
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Any idea how long enemies are held once you use a scroll of hold monster?

Until you attack them.

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One final question for this post - when you level up, are there any hidden attributes that get bumped up?

Not hidden attributes, but some calculations are affected. As you've probably noticed, you heal faster. Each level up gives you a 5% greater chance of hitting a monster. You are less likely to be poisoned, paralyzed, robbed by leprechauns, etc. Healing potions get more effective. Dart and arrow traps seem to be more likely to hit you, though I can't guess why.
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Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2015, 11:33:43 PM »
Wow, this is great stuff.  Is there someplace where all this info you have is collected or a community out there?

elwin

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2015, 02:06:40 PM »
I usually source-dive, but the Vade-Mecum includes nearly everything useful.
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Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2015, 06:06:23 PM »
I usually source-dive, but the Vade-Mecum includes nearly everything useful.

Great resource, thank you!

How do you play Rogue? What roguelike game would you recommend to someone who likes Rogue and where could I get it?

Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2015, 08:54:09 PM »
Made it to Medusa again...

I'm beginning to wonder how to even get past this point.  In my three battles against higher-level enemies (two vs Medusa and one vs Black Unicorn) I have not even had a chance. Absolutely obliterated.  In this run I had just fallen down a trapdoor, landed right next to a Medusa, and she confused me.  I then stumbled into a bear trap and the rest is history.

I was surprised how far I made it this run with the troubles I had:

- never improved from mace, but did get two enchantments for it
- found splint mail, but no way to protect from rust.  ended up using leather armor with two enchantments (and a third one late). it was rough going
- never improved strength and struggled mightily vs trolls with just 10 for strength
- found a +1 strength ring, but never used it.  had some other ring I never identified

did have some good fortune, though:

- found a wand of light early and used it a lot (and some other staff I never identified)
- quaffed a potion of skill just after getting to 7 taking me to 8, then another just after hitting 9 taking me to 10
- had lots of good increases in HP - ended up at about 72.  this always seems to be a key to my longer runs

elwin

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2015, 02:31:26 PM »
I wrote an article about surviving the deep levels, with some general tips. I hope it's helpful.

About Medusas, have you tried fighting them in corridors? That way, if it confuses you, you either hit it or move away from it, and can't blunder right next to it where it can hit you for free.
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Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2015, 08:27:06 PM »
Love it.  It confirms things I have been experiencing myself.

The part about a +4 mace was extremely helpful.  Can you expand that to include info on a long sword?  I had a +2 long sword and switched to a two-handed sword recently, and wasn't sure if it was the right move.

I beat a Medusa and made it to 19.  Actually beat two Medusas... Medusae?  The whole scene was a blur.  Yes, one of them was in a hallway, but may have involved a scroll of monster confusion.  I also beat my first Vampire. I found a stationary Medusa and as I was positioning to try to take her out from afar (is that even sound strategy?) yet another emerged from the darkness and killed me. One thing I forgot to do was switch armor as, from what I understand, Aquators no longer appear after 18. That run I found THREE armors with a +3 enchantment!  I ended up using the +5 Leather and enchanting it twice.

Finally got to use the Scare Monster trick vs a Troll and one other. Too bad it turns to dust :)

Love your site. I'll check it out when I get home. How can I figure out what keystrokes do what?

What is your opinion of busting open hidden passages? I've been finding it helpful on tougher levels to leave them blocked to help control where the monsters come from. Like using them as stopgaps. Last thing I need is monsters coming from multiple directions. Sometimes this causes more moves which in turn causes more monsters to appear, but at least I'm controlling the flow. This can also cause monsters to stack up at a blockade which can be an issue if you need to then unblock it, but at least you'd be in a hallway fighting them one at a time and scoring some experience.

Finally used a scroll of monster hold.  Worked wonderfully!

Last but not least, I encountered my first treasure room maze... treasure maze?

ant

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2015, 12:08:21 AM »
the scare monster scroll won't turn to dust if you move on it without picking it up.

the drain life wand is very powerful but it also takes some of your own hit points.

in later levels the polymorph can save you in some tough spots.  also the teleports can at least buy you some time.

ant

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2015, 12:25:31 AM »
Elwin, it's great to see someone who's actually debugging code of the rogues.  i've done a fair bit of that too but sometimes i'm not sure i've helped.  :)

i have been working more on rogomatic so that really play tests the version of rogue i've been debugging too (a version of 5.4.4).  if you want to talk code/bugs perhaps i've found and fixed some you've not hit yet?  anyways the source code for both rogomatic and rogue that i've been messing with are at www.anthive.com/rog.html.

both rogomatic and rogue version i've been using are set up to use environment variables so that i can have replicable runs when debugging.   and i have debugging scripts (mostly bash) that i use to check my progress on finding/fixing bugs.

at the moment i'm stuck on fixing a bug in rogue (the hero gets into a strange place in the maze).  some of my previous changes may have brought this on.  hard for me to be sure as i'm getting so far now that it takes many tries to find a new bug.  and i find the code a bitch to read/understand at times.

some other things i've done with rogue is to make sure it generates more distinct messages because at times they are ambiguous or non-existent.  this helps rogomatic know what is going on.

as this is gardening season i'm not spending much time debugging or such, but if you want to send me a note at the e-mail (ant at anthive dot com) i'm always willing to chat about rogue and rogomatic.

elwin

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2015, 12:26:15 PM »
The part about a +4 mace was extremely helpful.  Can you expand that to include info on a long sword?

Good idea, I'll do that.

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Love your site. I'll check it out when I get home. How can I figure out what keystrokes do what?

Hit the '?' key.

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What is your opinion of busting open hidden passages?

I never thought of leaving them blocked. I'll have to try it.

@ant: I came across your work on Rog-O-Matic a few months ago and was intrigued. Right now I'm busy with new stuff for the Roguelike Gallery, but in a few weeks I should have the time to take a close look. Then maybe we can collaborate on squashing bugs.
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