Author Topic: Hydra Slayer  (Read 19280 times)

Z

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 905
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Hydra Slayer
« on: July 05, 2012, 07:10:00 PM »
Hello!

Hydra Slayer joins the Roguelike Bundle!

You can download Version 13.1, and read the detailed changelog on the blog.

The biggest change is that NotEye is now integrated, which makes it look much more professional IMO. Other additions include a tutorial to show the new players what the game is about, music from Rogue Bard, achievements, and three new artifact weapons.

As a member of Roguelike Incubator, Hydra Slayer would like some feedback.

Are there any things which could turn new players away?

Maybe ingame texts could be improved? (I am hoping for Darren, since he writes text for ToME and other games)

The Android version did not get an update yet, but if you have any ideas about how to make it more accessible, then they could be helpful. (It also has a "social" version which uses some third party services for achievements, global highscores and sharing, but it seems just a few people have played it successfully)

Controversial ideas: I think it could be cool to change the theme to Greek mythology instead of generic fantasy, but it has already too many things which I have no idea how to fit into Greek mythology, so probably not. I think that the new Auto-attack cheat is interesting, as it allows experienced characters to concentrate on accumulating the best possible equipment without having to solve each battle (for others it probably causes more harm than help). I think it is a reasonable way of playing the game, but it counts as cheating, so highscores thus obtained won't be recorded.

Good luck!

Darren Grey

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
  • It is pitch black. You are likely to eat someone.
    • View Profile
    • Gruesome Games
Re: Hydra Slayer
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM »
Welcome to the Incubator! I look forward to giving this a roll this weekend. And I'll be happy to help with text revision.

Giving it a Greek mythology theme is a brilliant idea I think, and might not be too hard with some inventiveness. Some things like the halflings might make more sense with something from Ancient Greece.

Z

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 905
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Hydra Slayer
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2012, 12:29:50 AM »
Thanks! Maybe you are right that Greek retheming is not impossible. Things that I have problems with are: races (human/naga/troll/elf/halfling, I had an idea they could be replaced by choosing one of the Greek heroes as your ancestor, but I have no clear ideas for some of them), ettins (I do not know any two-headed humanoid in Greek mythology), scrolls and runes (probably could be replaced with prayers to Greek gods or something, but I don't know how to explain it reasonably yet). Vampire hydras, rare artifact names, alien hydras, and three-headed monkeys should not be a problem.

I have found that I did not test one thing: targetting signs were not displayed, I have replaced the zip file (this just changes "ontarget" to "target" in line 148 of hydra.noe).

Darren Grey

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
  • It is pitch black. You are likely to eat someone.
    • View Profile
    • Gruesome Games
Re: Hydra Slayer
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2012, 12:52:55 AM »
Ettins are fine to leave in, I think - it doesn't have to be 100% consistent.  Also heros is a bit boring for the race, it's more fun to visualise something physically different, and there are plenty of Greek mythological races to choose from.

Ancient

  • High Priest
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
    • View Profile
Re: Hydra Slayer
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2012, 08:03:51 AM »
Naga - echidna. Explain that PCs are Echidna's daughters but are called the same.
Troll - titan.
Elf - maybe centaur?
Ettin - assume intelligent beasts can use weapons and then amphisbaena vaguely fits. Geryon had three heads so maybe geryonspawn.

Scrolls - how they don't fit?
Runes - vases with magical powders?
Michał Bieliński, reviewer for Temple of the Roguelike

Z

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 905
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Hydra Slayer
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2012, 09:35:34 AM »
Wow, thanks Ancient! It seems I did not remember the Greek mythology well enough. I think echidna, titan, centaur, and geryonspawn are OK. Amphisbaena would be a nice monster to have, but they don't look able to use weapons...

Magical powders are a nice idea, yes. Yes, scrolls are probably OK, but it would be nice to replace them with something less overused...

Z

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 905
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Hydra Slayer
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2012, 02:15:28 PM »
I have updated the theme, mostly based on the suggestions by Ancient. Centaurs do not correspond exactly to Elves, but I think this is not a problem, since Elves did not make much sense (they had fencing and archery, but with archery there was no much reason to use fencing) and I think they were a bit overpowered anyway (once you know how to play). So Centaurs get only archery, maybe there will be another powerswipe-oriented race in the future.

Ettins are now called simply two-headed giants (and the description mentions that they are children of Geryon). Also fixed some other things. See the blog for the list of changes.

Ancient

  • High Priest
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
    • View Profile
Re: Hydra Slayer
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 02:01:36 PM »
Sorry for dumping all the feedback into one giant post. I have been putting notes into a file and meaning to post it on the weekend but instead kept switching back and forth between programming and playing. All this slowly accumulated.

I downloaded 13.2 and unzipped it. Large amount of files have senseless execution permissions. Then I perused the readme and tried to compile console version. I thought unfied executable meant one executable. Starting hydra --ascii would run the console version and running the executable without parameters would invoke Necklace of the Eye.

In file included from hydra.cpp:187:0:
level.cpp: In function ‘void dfs(int, bool)’:
level.cpp:239:24: warning: converting ‘false’ to pointer type ‘hydra*’ [-Wconversion-null]
In file included from hydra.cpp:1053:0:
save.cpp: In function ‘void deleteGame(const char*)’:
save.cpp:30:57: error: ‘unlink’ was not declared in this scope
make: *** [hydra] Błąd 1


Editing save.cpp to stick #include <unistd.h> in else clause of #ifdef MINGW allowed me to compile it.

Runs nicely. Tried hex geometry for a change. Reached ancient hydra as a human and died there to not watching health. In hex mode greater hydras are displayed in excellent way but I sometimes mistake tiles that go away from a hydra with tiles that are adjacent. All those mistakes piled up cost me around fifty wounds. Probably I am not used to hex. Yet.


You may ask why I did not play graphical version. I was put off by troubles in compilation. First, my lua headers are not in "lua5.1" directory. They are just in /usr/include/ which changes #include <lua5.1/lua.h> to just #include <lua.h>. This allowed me to progress further but not much further. Error list below. I am using gcc 4.7.0 14-04-2012. After deleting -Werror compilation finishes.

http://pastie.org/private/ubedldbkviexgchhucvhbw


  • Start screen: is it neccessary to highlight both 't's in Titan? Looks weird.
  • Wouldn't it sound better if in centaur race description the phrase "their horse bodies" was replaced with "their equine bodies"?
  • I liked the reference to amethyst's supposed alchemical qualities in amethyst weapon description.
  • When using potion of knowledge when bloody hydra is in sight means no fighting data is given. That should be explained in bloody hydra's description.
  • There is missing space after a dot in storm hydra's description.
  • Same for Potion of Knowledge.
  • Hitting bloody hydra with combination of meteoric weaponry and one elemental sword does not reveal that element's resistances despite I can calculate it easily.
  • Menorah adjective (spears) sounds cool but is out of theme.
  • Requesting help on scroll of reforging when wand of phase wall is selected causes considerable delay but does not return reforging table.
  • "You feel like if you have drunk the Potion of Power Swipe!" would sound better if it started with "You feel as if ...".
  • Stunning animation of shadow hydras in ASCII mode does weird things.
  • Spears speak of elves which ought to be renamed centaurs by this point.
  • Switching to bow often causes loss of a turn.
  • In ASCII mode circling asterisks "animate" every keypress.
  • Perhaps count unhonorable attacks against shadow hydras too?
  • Inventory menu annoys me. I can't remember whether it was like that in older versions but the confirmation question gets on my nerves. Probably its necessary though.
  • Power Juice is usually absent from a hydra slayer's inventory creating a hole in item list. Maybe make it the last potion displayed even after Life?

  • Shield bashes in hex mode causes all hell to break loose ...

Before:


After:


Switching to another weapon at this point toggles the modes. I think it reverted to default if you killed a hydra or something.

  • Hydras stepping on a spot where once mushroom was change their display mode. Might be related to screen edge too.

Step 1: Destroy a mushroom and find a live hydra.


Step 2: Lead the hydra into a spot where mushroom was.


  • When I want to see how my stuff is going to be affected by Scroll of Reforging it takes too many keypresses. Either scroll down and press 'h' or select 'r', answer no and then press 'h'. Four keypresses in second case and disappearance of interface which creates a blinking effect if you type fast. Maybe move Reforging to be first scroll on list so one does not have to scroll down so much?


Finally went back to console with 8-way geometry as Echidna. Gameplay got much, much more familiar and easier.

http://pastebin.com/TiBAEpwR
Michał Bieliński, reviewer for Temple of the Roguelike

Z

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 905
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Hydra Slayer
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2012, 12:06:34 PM »
Thanks Ancient! And congratulations for winning, with a very good score... maybe this race is too easy :)

Quote
Hitting bloody hydra with combination of meteoric weaponry and one elemental sword does not reveal that element's resistances despite I can calculate it easily.
Checking whether you can calculate the resistances easily would mean lots of special cases. But I have changed it so that ambidextrous attacks always identify resistances to all weapons used (you know where you cut and how it regrows).

Quote
Menorah adjective (spears) sounds cool but is out of theme.
I think that they are too rare for it to really matter (could not an educated hydra slayer hear a bit about Jewish culture anyway?). It is strange anyway that he uses Arabic numerals, but there is nothing that can be done about that. On the other hand, I think that vampire hydras should be probably renamed to something more Greek, and were-hydras probably should have some explanation.

Quote
Switching to bow often causes loss of a turn.
Under what circumstances? No idea what could cause that...

Quote
Perhaps count unhonorable attacks against shadow hydras too?
Then it would be probably nice to count them against all other special hydras...

Quote
Inventory menu annoys me. I can't remember whether it was like that in older versions but the confirmation question gets on my nerves. Probably its necessary though.
It was different in earlier versions, but confirmations were added after Legend's request (IIRC). I have redesigned the inventory, so it should be OK for everyone now. (Although I think that Titans are currently unable to see the reforging table, will have to fix it later)

Other things have been simply fixed, hopefully. Changelog

Ancient

  • High Priest
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
    • View Profile
Re: Hydra Slayer
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2012, 09:59:18 PM »
Thank you! Yes, Echidna are definitely the easiest race since the nerf of elves/centaurs. Back then those long-ears may have been better. Titans also trash hydras when they find the club.

I'll let out a small secret. I am playing with GNU Prolog interpreter open in another terminal. By the time big hydras appear I enter query "hydra_head_count mod all-divisors_sizes_multiplied" and instantly know how many heads I have to cut to prepare for the big hit. Of course I factor whatever divisors I am able to use immediately. After defeating ancient hydra I usually lost some health when there were small to medium sized hydras but healed almost to full when meeting the multi-headed giants.

Also, I have been taking advantage of minor oddity. Sometimes you are executing an ambidextrous attack and want to know resulting number of heads of a swing with a single weapon but are too lazy to do subtraction of weapon size from regrow number. To have HS do it for you select a hand you do not have yet. It will complain but behave as if two weapons were selected. Attacking is handled correctly.

Vampire hydras could be renamed to vulture hydras. That would allude to the vulture that ate Prometeus' liver every morning. Drop some lines that the vulture grew a head every time it feasted thus spawning the vulture hydras variety. Heracles came and kicked the vulture's ass but not before it managed to have offspring.

I like the name of Powder of Decapitation but recently had the idea it could be renamed to Obolus coin. The coin you put into dead person's mouth so that they have means to pay Charon for ferrying them across river Styx. Magical Obolus would trick Charon into taking life from hydra heads away prematurely and killing them in the process.


I will try to formulate steps to lose a turn to bow switching consistently. Or at least semi-consistently.

A pity -N --ascii still needs X windows. Are there plans to lift this requirement in near future?
Michał Bieliński, reviewer for Temple of the Roguelike

Z

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 905
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Hydra Slayer
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2012, 07:54:15 PM »
I have nerfed the Echidna daughters a bit (they no longer can read scrolls ambidextrously for free), although I think this would not affect you (I see you did not abuse this).

I have renamed vampire hydras as you suggest. I like the current name "Powder of Decapitation" more, but I have added something about Charon in the description. Thanks!

Lifting the X requirement turned out easier than I thought.

And lots of changes to NotEye. Changelog

kraflab

  • High Priest
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
    • View Profile
    • kraflab.com
Re: Hydra Slayer
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2012, 11:53:22 PM »
This game is pretty cool.

I like the music.

This is one of the few very puzzly roguelikes that I would still consider very strongly to be a roguelike.

It defaulted to 4-way movement, while I think 8-way might be best.  Or is it meant to be 4-way?  I wasn't sure if I just didn't know how to move diagonally since sight seemed to be 8-way (you can see through walls diagonally).  I think this type of sight should be removed since at best it is nonsensical.  I accept it in 8-way since you generally can move "thru" wall corners diagonally, but in 4-way it just seems out of place.

I had another confusion with sight: http://pastebin.com/fpw0HcUE

I have a view past the mushrooms in the second frame, even though my view should be significantly more obscured than the previous straight line of sight I should have had.  Again, I imagine this is some artifact coming from 8-way line of sight, but it is unintuitive to me.

You are able to pick up items while dead, which isn't really a problem but should nonetheless be taken out.

There should be some kind of visual queue or alert when you die, because it seemed like nothing really happened for me :P

I tend to not pay attention to my own health, so maybe a reddening of the screen or some warning noise would help with that, although it is certainly my own fault.

In the description of mushroom spores, it says "found an use in the dungeons" which I believe should be "found a use in the dungeons".  Idk if that is a cultural thing, but where I live at least you don't put an for use.

I found the game got a bit tedious with weapon micromanagement getting in the way to some extent, and I died in a situation where I came onto a floor and had no weapons capable of dealing with the hydras that spawned around me.  I probably could have used some items to deal with that though, but again I didn't want to deal with all the micromanagement.  That shouldn't really be taken as a negative thing though, that's what the game is really :P Just not particularly my cup of tea.

Z

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 905
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Hydra Slayer
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2012, 03:36:31 AM »
Thanks! Music comes from Rogue Bard, and this site contains music that can be used by every roguelike that is sufficiently free :) I would prefer to use something of my own, but I am not sure if I could compose anything better ;)

Movement is 4-directional by default, in order to help the new players. Also the tutorial automatically switches to 4-directional (maybe this is unclear, since it lets the user make a choice and then silently ignores it). But roguelike veterans with a full keyboard or VI skills will probably prefer 8-directional :)

About your example with mushrooms, I do not think this is unintuitive - the mushrooms probably are not centered in their grids, so in the first case they are able to hide everything beyond them, and in the second case there is a gap. Of course the game does not model it that way, and the view is simply obscured when there are two mushrooms on the line (which can go diagonally). So I think that looking through corners is the only problem, like in this situation:
Code: [Select]
@.##
..##
##..
##..

My interpretation of this situation is that in fact there is a very small gap between the two walls, so you can look through it, but not move through it. That's why the same LOS algorithm is used as with 8-directional sight. I think it is a bit interesting that you can see something but not move there. But maybe you are right (the graphics currently do not agree with this interpretation, especially in the FPP mode).

"An use" is a typo.

I'll try to redden a part of the screen when the character dies.

If you do not like having to manage weapons in every fight, you can turn on the "auto-attack" cheat. This is listed as a cheat and disables high scores, but I still think this is a reasonable way of playing (it solves the basic fights for you, allowing you to concentrate on harder things like determining when to use items, and composing efficient sets of weapon; probably it is more dangerous than helpful if you do not understand the game well enough).

Thanks!

Z

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 905
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Hydra Slayer
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2012, 01:25:00 AM »
A new update (13.5)!

Right-click on map for information, things mentioned by kraflab, and some minor things. And on NotEye's side, improved the integration feature.

See the changelog.

Z

  • Protector of the @
  • *****
  • Posts: 905
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Hydra Slayer
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2012, 02:50:00 PM »

Let's try procedurally generated hydra animations. IMHO look better than the stupid animations in Dungeons of Dredmor, for example. Changelog 13.6