Author Topic: Epilogue Incubator Thread  (Read 15720 times)

kraflab

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Re: Epilogue Incubator Thread
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2012, 10:27:20 PM »
Left-click examines altars? Why not examine altars with mouse-over, and pray with left-click (as it works in the rest of the game)?

Disarm traps: well, in this particular case, I would assume that left-click moves into a trap...

Lunging: you are right, you need another click to use lunge when you are not targetting enemies. But when clicking on enemies, I think that we can assume that we want to attack them.

Why is potion usage a two step process (you first select a potion, then you click on the map to use it)?

Overall, the mouseover popups should tell you what happens when you left-click and right-click on stuff. This way, you will be able to remove some information from the tutorial popups, making them more concise and understandable.


Actually, potion usage is now a one-step process (Alt + item #), assuming you have the most recent version.  I don't want it to just be the same as equipping so that you don't for instance accidentally use a potion.

Good idea about mouseover describing what left and right clicking does.  I will implement that.  Actually, placing a lot of the descriptive information (about altars, camps, etc) will likely remove the need to have right-click do anything but use items/attack.  This will perhaps make everything clearer/more consistent.

Wrt clicking on enemies, you may not be able to see the enemy and just be trying to move in a certain direction.  For instance, even while blind, you can try to attack enemies with right click.  This is an advantage to playing close attention to enemy location.

With disarming traps, again you may want to throw a smoke bomb on top of a trap, so right-click is used to "attack".

Thanks for this, I will make it so left click is always move/interact and right-click only does attack/item use.  This will probably cause problems for players that are used to the current system but will make it easier in the long run.

Edit: oh, I realize now that I forgot to add Alt-Quick use for mouse controls.  That is in for the next update.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 12:35:58 AM by kraflab »

kraflab

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Re: Epilogue Incubator Thread
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2012, 12:02:33 AM »
How about this:



I've added flavor text for everything else as well.  I think it actually works quite well and I'm scratching my head as to why I didn't do this earlier.  Thanks again Z  :)

Edit:

I've gone ahead and pushed out an update.

OLD SAVE FILES ARE INCOMPATIBLE

Change Log:
Added secret doors.
Added mouseover flavor text for tiles. Enjoy my attempts at wit.
Added the option to disable tutorial notes
Added autoexplore memory – ignore a destination and it will not return there
Added the ability to unlock a door from the inside
Added smoke traps
Added teleport traps
Added mouse quick use control: Alt+Right-Click
Added proper pages in the help for tutorial notes
Added champion claws, from which you can summon veteran enemies to fight for score and loot
Increased the favor you need with Zhangroh to get bonuses (I forgot to readjust this when I increased chest spawn rates)
Modified some of the help pages
Changed mouse controls: now left is used for all interaction (including praying) and right is always used for attack/item use
Reduced Void Tile spawn rate
Increased Thorn Tile spawn rate
Optimized autoexplore a bit (3-6ms -> 0-1ms) but you may not notice
Fixed Minuet’s altar
Fixed draw ordering in certain cases
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 04:23:30 AM by kraflab »

Z

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Re: Epilogue Incubator Thread
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2012, 07:35:43 PM »
I do not know how to pick up items in doors, or to stand in the door.

"Diminish trap: like a weaken trap" does not sound convincing.

Somebody has already mentioned this, but it should show the alchemy combinations I have tried. Would be cool to have the ingredients arranged on a circle, with lines corresponding to known colors and untested combinations.

I suppose that purple monsters are bosses, but it should be explained.

Maybe this is some Linux oddity, but Alt+right click opens some system menu for me.

Why I get items raising my DEF by +40 and the effect is much lower than 40? This should be explained. If they are precentages then "40%" should be shown, and I do not know what is the base value (if I use two +100% items, is it 3x or 4x?)

Tooltips for items should show "left click to drop, right click to equip, alt+right click to use" or something.

Maybe show the line "left click to move, right click to [whatever you are using]" on each map tooltip.

Right-clicking when you have no ranged attack, or your items are not charged, seems to simply do nothing. This is bad.

kraflab

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Re: Epilogue Incubator Thread
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2012, 11:05:09 PM »
I do not know how to pick up items in doors, or to stand in the door.

"Diminish trap: like a weaken trap" does not sound convincing.

Somebody has already mentioned this, but it should show the alchemy combinations I have tried. Would be cool to have the ingredients arranged on a circle, with lines corresponding to known colors and untested combinations.

I suppose that purple monsters are bosses, but it should be explained.

Maybe this is some Linux oddity, but Alt+right click opens some system menu for me.

Why I get items raising my DEF by +40 and the effect is much lower than 40? This should be explained. If they are precentages then "40%" should be shown, and I do not know what is the base value (if I use two +100% items, is it 3x or 4x?)

Tooltips for items should show "left click to drop, right click to equip, alt+right click to use" or something.

Maybe show the line "left click to move, right click to [whatever you are using]" on each map tooltip.

Right-clicking when you have no ranged attack, or your items are not charged, seems to simply do nothing. This is bad.


Ah yes, mouse into doorway.  I guess I don't use the mouse enough to run into these problems.  Hmm.  In the meantime, you can use wasd in such a situation, but I realize this is not ideal.

The weaken trap says that it is like the diminish trap.  It's kind of a silly joke :P

Rearranging alchemy in some way would prove useful.  I'll look into it.

Purple monsters?  I assume you are talking about a monster flavor, such as captain or king.  These are just more powerful varieties, as indicated by their title.  You'll know when you get to the bosses :)

Hmm idk about the Linux alt+right click.  I will check that out and see if it is just you or if it happens to me too.  It definitely doesn't happen on windows (at least for me).  I can perhaps change it to ctrl instead of alt.

Yes those numbers are percents, which should be obvious since +40 would be an insane amount, but I'll add percent signs.  It shows the base value right next to the stat: "DEF 13/10" when you have a +30 item for instance.

I can add left/right control to all the tooltips i guess.  I'll have to see if it doesn't make them too long/cluttered.

What kind of control would you like that can only happen when you try to do an attack that you cannot do?  Or would you prefer a warning like "item not charged" or something?

Thanks again for the feedback.  It is becoming clear to me that you are perhaps the first person to seriously play using the mouse, which is why this hasn't been brought up before :)

Edit: I double checked that alt-right click works fine for me on my linux, so I guess this is something specific to your distribution.  At any rate, I think I will move alt commands to ctrl or make it reconfigurable.

Edit Edit:

Released a new version since I found some bugs.

Change Log:
Added a % sign to the item descriptions to be more explicit
Added alchemy memory - previously combined ingredients show up darker
Added the command "ctrl+left-click" to close doors with the mouse, while left-clicking now walks onto the tile.  This feels more intuitive to me
Changed any control using alt to use control instead due to possible op-sys problems
Fixed autoexplore not proceeding through open doors in certain situations
Fixed a bug in pathfinding that was brought out with the new autoexplore
Fixed a crash involving saving after loading in certain situations
Fixed an error in the controls
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 05:47:33 AM by kraflab »

Ancient

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Re: Epilogue Incubator Thread
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2012, 08:15:36 PM »
Had a go at newest version. Improved alchemy screen is excellent and the big minimap is easy to look at. What I would suggest now:

Prevent achievement unlocked message from being obscured by minimap.
Mark allies in pop up window somehow.
Sometimes friends deadlock themselves in void tiles. The void damages them and they rest to heal.

UglyTroll said the hints that pop up are annoying. To offset that a bit those could be made into just two sentences and the rest put in small tabs that can be opened at any time to read them. Sort of what old Dungeon Keeper did. If you are somehow not familiar with the game this screenshot displays three icons to the right of sidebar. That way hints appear as they are useful but not necessarily need to be read immediately.
Michał Bieliński, reviewer for Temple of the Roguelike

kraflab

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Re: Epilogue Incubator Thread
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2012, 10:53:20 PM »
Allies really need some work in general.  I'll look at doing some kind of overhall to make them more useful and to prevent problematic situations (i.e. there is no reason to ever heal on a void tile so that is an easy fix).

I'll get the achievement text on top of the minimap.

That is a good screenshot you have.  I agree that method should be incorporated somehow.

Thanks for the feedback.

Z

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Re: Epilogue Incubator Thread
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2012, 10:17:05 PM »
I normally play roguelikes with keyboard only, but I was trying to impersonate a "typical player". I already got used to most things, and things that annoyed me initially no longer annoy me, so probably my feedback will be of a different character now :)

Sometimes I see two-handed and offhand weapons which enhance shields. This makes no sense, does it? Likewise two-handed weapons which enhance another weapon attribute (not sure whether they appear). Please avoid such combinations, it is confusing. Even with a one-handed weapon enhancing another weapon attribute, I think that the enhancement should be rare and significant.

I have no idea what a "cracking stave" does. Whatever I point it at, there is no effect.

Tooltip for stats should be more detailed, like "10 + 30% = 13".

"You have successfully gathered the ingredient" - why not tell me what ingredient it was?

I have no idea what "mysterious growth" does, but maybe that's the point.

I think that void (and maybe other areas) should have a different color on the map. Also, in most cases it makes no sense to travel through void. Maybe some treasures should be generated inside?

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Re: Epilogue Incubator Thread
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2012, 03:01:53 PM »
I did not manage to determine what Crackling Stave does either. I suspected it would dig (crack the walls). Somehow it does not do that or I activated it improperly.

It would be helpful if instead of "300%" inventory said "3 charges" or "3 uses" if the former is too long.
Michał Bieliński, reviewer for Temple of the Roguelike

kraflab

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Re: Epilogue Incubator Thread
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2012, 07:23:07 PM »
I normally play roguelikes with keyboard only, but I was trying to impersonate a "typical player". I already got used to most things, and things that annoyed me initially no longer annoy me, so probably my feedback will be of a different character now :)

Sometimes I see two-handed and offhand weapons which enhance shields. This makes no sense, does it? Likewise two-handed weapons which enhance another weapon attribute (not sure whether they appear). Please avoid such combinations, it is confusing. Even with a one-handed weapon enhancing another weapon attribute, I think that the enhancement should be rare and significant.

I have no idea what a "cracking stave" does. Whatever I point it at, there is no effect.

Tooltip for stats should be more detailed, like "10 + 30% = 13".

"You have successfully gathered the ingredient" - why not tell me what ingredient it was?

I have no idea what "mysterious growth" does, but maybe that's the point.

I think that void (and maybe other areas) should have a different color on the map. Also, in most cases it makes no sense to travel through void. Maybe some treasures should be generated inside?


At some point you will no longer have the mysterious growth, and it will become clear what happened, unless perhaps you missed that moment.

The void has various benefits, since enemies cannot see through it.  This makes it a great place to hide, but it also damages you, so it is a good instance of risk-reward in my opinion.  There are times where treasure spawns in the void or where there are extra areas accessible only through it, though by random chance only.  I don't like to force things such as treasure within because then the player can get to the point where they know what is coming next in that regard.

All stat improvements are %-based, so having 13/10 has all the information needed, such that I think 10+30%=13 is an unnecessary use of space.  However, I will see how it looks :P

I thought staves said what they did...if not this is an oversight and I will fix it.  Crack is an effect that shows up with some enemies late in the game, and it deals a major debuff to shield skill, making it excellent for dealing with tough enemies late in the game.  The cracking staff might actually be the best item in the game depending on what type of character you have :)

Good idea to add the ingredient name to that message...it still exists from before the ingredients had names and I forgot to change it.

I can understand the skill modifiers on weapons bit, as they may be useless.  However, single handed bonuses will stay since you might wield a wand and a sword depending on character.  That being said, shield bonus on off-hand and alternate weapon bonuses on two-handed weapons is indeed unusable.  I will get this fixed.

I did not manage to determine what Crackling Stave does either. I suspected it would dig (crack the walls). Somehow it does not do that or I activated it improperly.

It would be helpful if instead of "300%" inventory said "3 charges" or "3 uses" if the former is too long.

Yes, the staff notation is bad and I will fix that.

Thanks for the feedback!  I had to deal with moving to a new apartment this week but things are settling down now and I should be able to actually get some work done :)

Edit:
As it turns out, there was a typo that led to the crack description being an empty string, so thanks a bunch for finding that bug :)

I have forgotten that stealth and perception do not increase by percentages.  For consistency, I'm thinking about using direct numbers as in "MEL:  11 (8 + 3)"
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 08:21:54 PM by kraflab »

Z

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Re: Epilogue Incubator Thread
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2012, 08:37:44 PM »
At some point you will no longer have the mysterious growth, and it will become clear what happened, unless perhaps you missed that moment.

After posting the message I had the mysterious growth again and I got a positive effect. I think I got this effect in the past, but I did not read the message log (I was busy with a battle at the time) and had no idea what caused this. Maybe that was because the previous game I tried was PRIME where it is generally bad when something is growing inside. Maybe the tooltip should be more optimistic?

Quote
All stat improvements are %-based, so having 13/10 has all the information needed, such that I think 10+30%=13 is an unnecessary use of space.  However, I will see how it looks :P

Sure, it would be wasteful to add this in the stat box, but hey, you have lots of space in the tooltip, and I would like to know the percentage bonus. For example to know whether an additional +10% would have an effect.

Quote
However, single handed bonuses will stay since you might wield a wand and a sword depending on character.
That's why I would like the bonus to be rare and significant in this case, as a reward for having a character which does not specialize on a single attack skill (7 out of 10 combat proficiencies do). I am not sure how this works in Epilogue, but in most games it is better to specialize in one powerful attack type than to have a variety of weak ones. Anyway, +STA is something that you should only use in battles which raise your level, right? Unnatural, I don't like this...

Some new feedback:

It is annoying that the game is based around different attack/defense types, and yet it is not known what the particular enemy is using. How should I know what The Creator is? Not sure, but I think he even did not drop anything after I defeated him.

Zangroh "has accepted your destruction", maybe this is cultural, but it sounds like "Zangroh is happy that you have been destroyed".

Sometimes there are chests standing on traps. Ctrl+clicking there destroys the chest and disarms the trap. The wrapped box (presumably containing the trap) is shown, but it does not appear in the "Ground:" list when moving to the spot.

Some enemies have strange bright lights floating around them, and I do not know what it means. I think it does not mean any special title (like King), and since Kings are more powerful than other enemies, there should be something to make this status clear. Maybe draw a crown?

Show herb patches on the map, maybe? I have tried to use the autoexplore feature on the map that I have explored, but the character went into the void and was killed.

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Re: Epilogue Incubator Thread
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2012, 09:02:38 PM »
At some point you will no longer have the mysterious growth, and it will become clear what happened, unless perhaps you missed that moment.

After posting the message I had the mysterious growth again and I got a positive effect. I think I got this effect in the past, but I did not read the message log (I was busy with a battle at the time) and had no idea what caused this. Maybe that was because the previous game I tried was PRIME where it is generally bad when something is growing inside. Maybe the tooltip should be more optimistic?

Quote
All stat improvements are %-based, so having 13/10 has all the information needed, such that I think 10+30%=13 is an unnecessary use of space.  However, I will see how it looks :P

Sure, it would be wasteful to add this in the stat box, but hey, you have lots of space in the tooltip, and I would like to know the percentage bonus. For example to know whether an additional +10% would have an effect.

Quote
However, single handed bonuses will stay since you might wield a wand and a sword depending on character.
That's why I would like the bonus to be rare and significant in this case, as a reward for having a character which does not specialize on a single attack skill (7 out of 10 combat proficiencies do). I am not sure how this works in Epilogue, but in most games it is better to specialize in one powerful attack type than to have a variety of weak ones. Anyway, +STA is something that you should only use in battles which raise your level, right? Unnatural, I don't like this...

Some new feedback:

It is annoying that the game is based around different attack/defense types, and yet it is not known what the particular enemy is using. How should I know what The Creator is? Not sure, but I think he even did not drop anything after I defeated him.

Zangroh "has accepted your destruction", maybe this is cultural, but it sounds like "Zangroh is happy that you have been destroyed".

Sometimes there are chests standing on traps. Ctrl+clicking there destroys the chest and disarms the trap. The wrapped box (presumably containing the trap) is shown, but it does not appear in the "Ground:" list when moving to the spot.

Some enemies have strange bright lights floating around them, and I do not know what it means. I think it does not mean any special title (like King), and since Kings are more powerful than other enemies, there should be something to make this status clear. Maybe draw a crown?

Show herb patches on the map, maybe? I have tried to use the autoexplore feature on the map that I have explored, but the character went into the void and was killed.


Hovering your mouse over an enemy shows your chance to hit with each type of weapon, thus making it perfectly clear what the best offense (for your character) is against a particular enemy.  In this way, even a melee character may find an advantage in wielding a bow against an enemy with low ranged defense.

I intended the stamina effect to be just a nice bonus if it happens to be on your equipment.  I can see how it might cause people to want to micromanage their weaponry though...I'm not sure if I should remove/replace it or not.

I don't have a problem with the Zhangroh text, but perhaps I'll make it clearer.  I see what you mean at any rate.

I will look into the chest+trap possible bug.  I think I know what is happening...

Lit enemies have their names in different colors along with a title.  The exceptions are that enemies holding a special item (ring, key) have green lights floating around them and rare enemies have no title (including bosses).  I will add some explanatory text in the monster description, since this is I believe mentioned in the tutorial notes but can easily be missed/forgotten.

If your character enters the void, it should mean that there is nothing to explore but whatever is in/thru the void tiles (or that you have no path to anything new except through the void).  It should stop your pathing once you take damage, at which point you can carefully navigate the void or just retreat.  If that didn't happen let me know as it is a bug.

Mysterious growth can be good or bad...apparently you got lucky ;)

As far as mixed weaponry, I would like to think it is relatively balanced and there are specific advantages/disadvantages.  Specialization means you have a much better chance of dealing with shield-based enemies.  Using two types means you should on average have a better chance of dealing with non-shield-based enemies.  The bonus with two types is probably less per enemy, but many more enemies do not have shields than the number that do.  It also means that 2/3 of weapons that you find are perfect for you, so getting a rare drop from a powerful creature is twice as likely to work for you.

Edit:
I changed "destruction" to "sacrifice" for Zhangroh
I added "Carrying a special item" to green-lit monster descriptions
Fixed the trap-chest bug
Probably going to implement a few new monsters and drop an update, unless some more feedback rolls in :)

Really, truly thanks for the continued feedback.  I'm at that point in development where interest from other people is the real thing that keeps me working on it
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 09:23:02 PM by kraflab »

kraflab

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Re: Epilogue Incubator Thread
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2012, 02:48:46 AM »
Version 2.1 is out.

SAVE GAMES ARE INCOMPATIBLE

Change Log:
All Versions:
Added a fade effect to projectiles which makes their travel seem more continuous
Added the line "Carrying a special item" to enemies with special items (keys, rings)
Added the control that left-clicking or using wasd while autoexploring halts autoexplore
Added the option of choosing whether autoexplore enters dangerous tiles (default=Yes)
Added the option of "bump to interact" for opening doors/chests/etc (default=No)
Added the option of slowing down autoexplore by adding a time delay (default=0)
Added comparison numbers in item descriptions for stats and skills
Added a sound effect for unexpected/odd events
Changed the mouse-over for items to make sure the tooltip does not get obscured by the log
Changed unexpected/odd event text to create newlines for easier parsing of the log
Changed from packages to crates for dropped items
Changed the stave syntax to read (2 charges) instead of a terrible percent format
Changed gather text to be specific to the thing gathered
Changed the way skills are displayed to be more clear and consistent "MEL:  11 (8 + 3)"
Changed Zhangroh text to use "sacrifice" instead of "destruction"
Changed the options menu controls so arrow keys loop
Changed the Summoning Stave to contain only 1 charge
Fixed some screenshot quirks
Fixed a missing description for the Crack effect
Fixed allies getting stuck in a heal-loop on a void tile
Fixed Zhangroh sacrifices deleting disarmed traps in certain cases
Fixed map obscuring achievement message

Full Version:
Added a new creature to the 1st floor: the "Star Minstrel"
Added a new creature to the 2nd floor: the "Amateur Acrobat"
Added a new creature to the 3rd floor: the "Supraliminal Smoke"

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Re: Epilogue Incubator Thread
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2012, 11:09:33 PM »
Preliminary work on a better note interface...The light icon is the active note, the darkest ones are actually flashing (indicating they haven't been accessed yet), and the middle-dark one has been accessed before.  You can use the old control of closing the note to remove it, or click the icon to minimize it and save it for later.

I also made the font smaller in the notes because I decided it is much easier to read and looks less overwhelming when it fits on the screen...



Any thoughts?

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Re: Epilogue Incubator Thread
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2012, 03:24:29 PM »
Looks good, especially the smaller font. First hint should be about other hints.

So hitting ESC close the message and makes it go permanently away? Click again to minimize is good but hitting escape should not remove it. Let left-click on a tab open/minimize it and right-click delete. It worked exactly like that in Dungeon Keeper. Thus a player can get rid of a hint without reading it. First hint about hints could auto-open to tell what those flashing tabs are.

Tabs could use tooltips that would say the topic of hint. For example "Blocks", "Healing", "Buffs" etc.
Michał Bieliński, reviewer for Temple of the Roguelike

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Re: Epilogue Incubator Thread
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2012, 04:19:50 PM »
Good suggestions all around, thanks!