#### Z

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« Reply #135 on: July 26, 2012, 07:26:11 PM »
Or, alternatively, someone who likes Diablo and can explain why we were being elitist by hating on it

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Since most of us that talk on the show are fairly progressive in thought, is there anyone with a more traditional viewpoint that would be interested in standing up for what some term elitist views?

I think these two are different kinds of elitism, in Diablo episode it was like "this game is so badly designed compared to our games" (I think that Keith Burgun often makes similar statements), but as far as I understand you want someone who is like "VI keys are clearly the best control system and ASCII is clearly the best UI, so other options are a waste of time" (why not find the threads where such people discuss?). Krice seems elitist about what can be considered a roguelike, but I am not sure whether this is what you want (although saying that 4-directional is not a roguelike would probably count).

#### Darren Grey

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« Reply #136 on: July 26, 2012, 09:49:13 PM »
We've done the episode, just waiting for the edit.  But yeah, both types of elitism were discussed.

Regarding the episode ideas, T-Engine and libtcod are both planned for the future, as I think it's worth discussing their strengths and weaknesses.  More code detailed ones are difficult though I think - it doesn't lend itself well to discussion, and is better expressed through blog or wiki posts in my opinion.

#### Darren Grey

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« Reply #137 on: July 28, 2012, 10:42:54 PM »
Well here's the episode:

Not re-listened to it myself yet.  It was a bit messy to record as Ido kept losing his connection.  Also I think we both wanted to talk about different things at various points, which made it a little incongruous.  Hope it's enjoyable regardless!

#### kraflab

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« Reply #138 on: July 28, 2012, 11:47:39 PM »
Hmm, now the on page player is broken for me in chrome as well

Listening to the mp3.

#### PTrefall

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« Reply #139 on: July 29, 2012, 06:53:49 AM »
Got this last night, looking forward to listening to it today! An episode on Spelunky sounds awesome too!
Edit: Another great episode, though it was a bit short for my walk... Sounds like I have to go and read up on the Diablo episode comments now
Loved Ido's "..but is it a roguelike?" at the end!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 12:38:06 PM by PTrefall »

#### Krice

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« Reply #140 on: July 29, 2012, 09:49:35 AM »
Darren sounds exactly like Hugh Grant. Wait.. what if he is Hugh Grant?!

#### Darren Grey

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« Reply #141 on: July 30, 2012, 12:25:32 PM »

Regarding your blog post, Krice, I do agree that the RL community is generally better than most when it comes to elitism.  But open source can lead to its own elitism (see debate about OpenLeft etc, or the attitudes to Thomas Biskup for being closed source).  And about accessibility, it's about ease of approach not making the game easier.  A game can be very complex and challenging and still be accessible.  Much of it is about conforming to modern interface standards, not just in-genre standards.

#### Krice

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« Reply #142 on: July 30, 2012, 03:34:31 PM »

Don't be sorry. You have nice voice, you should really be on radio.

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Much of it is about conforming to modern interface standards

Modern doesn't equal better. When I think of command per key it's a good way to handle commands, even it means the player has to memorize more keyboard commands. Or rather it's just another way to do it. However I think less used commands should be placed in a menu (like save/load game etc.) It's possible to improve user interface, but do it with style.

#### PTrefall

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« Reply #143 on: July 30, 2012, 05:57:56 PM »
Wouldn't a modernization entail having mouse-interface AND keyboard-shortcuts though? You'd ease players into the game with the mouse-interface, but ultimately to play the game efficiently you'd want to use the keyboard shortcuts? So perhaps the key per command doesn't suffer that much from modernization of the UI?

#### AgingMinotaur

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« Reply #144 on: July 30, 2012, 07:45:32 PM »
A good interface should probably reflect the developer's preferences. (Even though, of course, developers have their blind spots, stuff like multiarch support is good, etc.) Personally, I don't really see what all the fuss is about. So I didn't find it the most captivating episode thus far, but had a nice time doing the dishes with it

As always,
Minotauros
This matir, as laborintus, Dedalus hous, hath many halkes and hurnes ... wyndynges and wrynkelynges.

#### Darren Grey

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« Reply #145 on: July 30, 2012, 09:33:36 PM »
If that was every dev's approach then a lot of games would only have vi-keys  :/

#### Quendus

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« Reply #146 on: July 30, 2012, 09:55:47 PM »
The other way in which the roguelike community is unelitist is that a one-person development team with no skill at making sprites or writing prose can make a game and have it judged based on its gameplay, rather than on first impressions of its appearance.

But then there's the problem of all those threads in the Development and Early Development Feedback sections of Roguetemple with only the author's and/or getter77's posts... Bay12forums seems to be better in this regard, but given the volume of traffic pushing threads without replies down, this might be an illusion.

If that was every dev's approach then a lot of games would only have vi-keys  :/
I'd worry about the roguelikes with emacs-like shortcuts in that case. Want to tunnel through that wall? Do control-shift-T then alt-j.

#### st33d

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« Reply #147 on: July 30, 2012, 10:16:18 PM »
A good interface should probably reflect the developer's preferences.

You need to play some of the Dev Log games on TIGSource to find out why this sentiment is utterly, utterly wrong. Developers often have the least idea of usability. Developers are also notoriously lazy.

I think what you need is an entry point for newbies, but support the wishes of the hardcore players. The hardcore are going to play your game the most. But the hardcore may not become hardcore if you don't let them pick up your game quickly.

#### getter77

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« Reply #148 on: July 30, 2012, 10:40:03 PM »

But then there's the problem of all those threads in the Development and Early Development Feedback sections of Roguetemple with only the author's and/or getter77's posts... Bay12forums seems to be better in this regard, but given the volume of traffic pushing threads without replies down, this might be an illusion.

Well, one can never tell really how such things will pan out---I would say the Dev board in particular is at one of the livelier periods I've seen since I first found this place.  Bay12 is a phenomena in terms of latching onto a few things at a time with great fervor and the large masses of DF folks. There's a lot of diaspora going on in terms of the games that've yet to strike it big---one thing I've suggested in times past is for Roguelike releases, should the devs think to/feel up to it, to include the Roguetemple URL ingame at the main menu start and whatnot screens so as to get more of a hub going for those projects not aiming for the headache of an exclusive forum unless things get wonderfully hectic.
Brian Emre Jeffears
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In Training

#### AgingMinotaur

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