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Players => Major Roguelikes => Topic started by: Goran the Balkanian on November 28, 2014, 09:56:27 AM

Title: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Goran the Balkanian on November 28, 2014, 09:56:27 AM
Ok guys, does anyone play this game still in 2014? It is so hard to find some help and players who actually beat the game, even more players who actually play this game actively. I know, it is the holy grail of roguelikes. But can it be beaten? I believe it could be.
This is my post on reddit (which has pretty large roguelike community) about my tactics, I didnt finished it, but when I finish it I will paste it here.
http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/2kr5tv/made_it_to_level_17_on_rogue_so_far/
My name is Thund7 on Reddit. I hope this tips will help someone.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: ant on December 01, 2014, 03:35:56 AM
there are many versions so that would be an important factor to know.

i play the versions i have installed here from time to time for testing them out and to make sure they work as expected for the version of rogomatic that i am working on.

some versions are much easier than others.  :)
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Goran the Balkanian on December 21, 2014, 07:27:18 PM
I am playing Rogue version 5.4 I think, and from some other differences where I have played other Rogues like Version 1 and 3 it is pretty hard.
Right now my best score is level 24, killed by a Dragon, pretty proud of it (level 24, not a Dragon :)

So common guys, nobody is playing here Rogue anymore? Or nobody wants to talk about it?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: ant on December 22, 2014, 05:26:39 AM
it's not a graphical real time shooter with explosions and other excitement.  times have changed, games have gotten really good.

i was at an arcade the other day and was rather amazed by the visual quality of some of the games (i'd not been in one for many years).

rogue 5.4.4 that i have been debugging is very tough to beat.  and for most rogues in general there's none of this multiple lives stuff.  when you're dead, you're dead...

at the lower levels some important things that may save you are teleportation or polymorph staffs or wands, extra healing potions and knowing when to just run and dive for a trap.

my focus has shifted quite a bit since i started working on the rogomatic code.  rogue is still fun, but now it is more of a part of the whole puzzle that i work on to debug for rogomatic.  once in a while i do find a bug in rogue so any fixes i find might be useful to others.

a line count of about 18,000 lines of C for each of rogue and rogomatic makes it a tiny program compared to some other games.

anyways, i'm pretty sure i severely limit the audience of the code i distribute simply because i don't do any version for MS nor do i distribute binaries of any kind.  yet the rogue part should be fairly easy.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: RiC David on February 05, 2015, 04:09:40 AM
I'd really really like to play an updated UI/controls version of Rogue, basically the Brogue engine running Rogue would be perfect.

What really drags the experience down is missile weapons, if I'm not mistaken you need to wield a bow the same way you would a melee weapon and then 'throw' arrows. There's no way to switch between two weapon set ups (as in Crawl and, I think, Nethack) so using any combination of ranged and melee is cumbersome and irritating.

All around there's just no streamlining of anything whatsoever, it's keystroke galore and after being spoiled by games like Brogue and even games like ADOM (the equipment screen is tidy even if it has the whole unnecessary "you can't equip/wear this until you remove that" system), Rogue just comes with way too much faffing about.

I'll probably try to get into it some day because Brogue is by far my favourite and all the other classic roguelikes go in a different 'character customisation' direction and play more like other RPGs than the original Rogue formula. I'm surprised there's been nothing for mobile phones because the game would be perfect for the medium.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on April 19, 2015, 04:27:32 PM
I am playing Rogue on Roku.  The About page says it was based on Rogue 5.4.4

I am enjoying it, but I regularly have questions that I need help answering.  I'm not sure this thread gets enough attention to get my answers... but here are a few:

1.  When you read a scroll of uncurse (someone watching over you) does it uncurse all cursed items that are equipped?  Like if you knew one of your scrolls was for uncurse, could you equip all your cursed items and uncurse them at once?

2.  If a -3 cursed armor is uncursed, is it still -3 or does it go to zero?

3.  What do the traps do?  Like strange mist?  What about the one that says "mysterious trap?"  I just stepped on one today and it said it turned my pack purple...wtf?

4.  In a recent run I was on the verge of death sandwiched between a Quagga and a Centaur.  Out of desperation I read a random scroll.  I think it was the scroll that says "you hear maniacal laughter in the distance," but this time it said, "you hear a distant cry of despair."  Did the game know I was about to die?  By the way, I was not high on "everything is so cosmic."

5.  Does the potion of poison (you feel sick) cure "everything is so cosmic?"  It seems to work for me.

6.  What cures blindness?

7.  Are there glitches in this game?  I'm wanting to know if one I experienced is a common issue or if it's just my Roku version.  I was super excited because I about had a treasure room cleared of monsters (Centaurs, Quaggas, Nymphs, etc).  A Quagga knocked me down to 1 HP, but I wasn't worried.  On my move I went to quaff a potion of extra healing (I had identified it earlier).  As soon as I selected Quaff it the screen briefly flashed "which ... would you like to quaff?" and then immediately out of the game to the start screen.  I did not even get a tombstone screen.  SO BUMMED as I'd had an excellent run to that point and was poised to make it a few more floors, at least.  This is the second time I have experienced this.

Any help appreciated.

One of these days I'm going to try the Scare Monster trick, but when you play with a Roku remote I don't think there's a good way to repeatedly rest until more monsters come out.

Thanks, Goran, for the reedit link.  I enjoyed reading the Rogue conversation.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: ant on April 23, 2015, 02:54:45 PM
yes, there are still bugs in various versions.  i've tried to debug some of the things found in mine (5.4.4), but the code is not easy to read or trace at times...  i've run into some bugs recently that i've given up on finding for now (too little time until the gardening season is over).

i am working on rogomatic code too so that gives me insight into some things when i read one and then the other...

as for cursed items and equipping before reading uncurse scroll, you can only use one weapon and one armor and two rings so that limits your uncurse to four items.  when you uncurse the item does not go to zero, it's still bad armor, but the uncurse lets you take it off to get into something better.  the whole curse thing is that you get stuck with something that is glued to you and you are forced to cope with it.

my armor strategy is to wear the best i have until i get up to where the aquators are at, and then switch to the second best armor or leather armor (which is better than nothing) then when i get a chance to check scrolls i put the best armor back on and read them hoping to find a protect armor or enchant armor.

the mysterious trap is purely annoyance IMO, i don't see it doing much of anything for damage.  i think it was put in to annoy the rogomatic coders as some other changes seem to be geared towards that too (make it harder to know what is going on because there may not be a message in reaction to reading a scroll or zapping).  my own answer to this was to go and add more messages for those cases in rogue so that rogomatic could know what was going on.  source code...  :) :) :)

strange mist is just a sleep trap, it holds you in place for a bit.  hope you aren't being chased by a difficult monster at that time and really low on HP.

the various messages (cry of despair) usually mean something, but in some versions they can mean more than one thing, which is frustrating.  i've changed the version i mess with to make all messages unique, so that if you see it you know what it means.  otherwise it's just too hard to keep track of all the things going on in rogomatic if the messages might mean one thing or another and you have to wait to be sure (or get an identify scroll)...

potion of healing should cure blindness and potion of extra healing.  some versions will give you a one point HP bump if you quaff an extra healing potion when at max HP already.

as for your glitch, i'm wondering if you hit the Q instead of the q (Q is quit and some versions won't ask you if you want to quit for sure)?  well anyways, yes, crashes and strange stuff do happen.  hard to replicate some bugs.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: hollyluya on May 07, 2015, 01:55:13 AM
I play TileRogue.  I don't know if it's easier or different, but I've beat it a few times.  Is TileRogue one of the versions you play?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Samildanach on May 07, 2015, 08:32:06 PM
I play TileRogue.  I don't know if it's easier or different, but I've beat it a few times.  Is TileRogue one of the versions you play?

Hmm, I've never heard of TileRogue before. It seems as though it should be functionally the same game as the original Rogue.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: getter77 on May 08, 2015, 02:30:26 AM
Part of the many fine, mysterious works of Donnie Russell II's:

https://sites.google.com/site/donnierussellii/home
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Slash on May 08, 2015, 12:44:45 PM
One does not simply beat rogue.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on May 09, 2015, 04:45:02 PM
I think I have an interesting glitch on my Roku port and I'm curious if anyone else has experienced it.

When I diagonally attack an enemy, it seems to be far more effective.  Like a greater chance of hitting, and greater chance of hitting for a critical amount.  BUT there's a big but.  If you diagonally attack an enemy who has an effect, a glitch occurs and you get screwed.  For example, I diagonally attacked a Leprechaun, and without a message saying whether I had hit him or not, it just immediately says your purse feels lighter.  I diagonally attacked a Nymph, and without saying whether I had hit her or not, it just immediately says she stole from me (my wand of light - damn her!).  I diagonally attacked a Rattlesnake, and it went into a weird repeated cycle of saying it hit me AND that I feel weaker.  Eventually it did finally release me, but I got hammered.

Thanks for posting that link.  I watched the videos for Rogue and TileRogue and I noticed what makes my version really hard is that there isn't just an identify scroll.  On my version they are all specific to only a certain kind of item.  Like identify scroll scroll, identify armor scroll, etc.

It's also way faster to play on pc than it is with my Roku remote.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on May 11, 2015, 10:44:21 PM
Oops, nevermind  ;D

Apparently I have a function called Fight which means fight until you are about to die, and Fight to the Death.  So... now I understand.

Also, I was very confused about what sleep was.  Since I've only ever fallen asleep when all alone, I thought that waking up from sleep happened almost instantly.  But in a recent run a sleep trap was right at a doorway. A Troll was chasing me and when I hit that trap I found out the hard way that you are actually asleep for much longer when something is attacking you. Needless to say, I died.

I'm beginning to understand now just how important Strength is. I used to think that Aquators alone were the scourge of this game, but Rattlesnakes are right up there. At least you have a chance in hell at finding a restore strength potion. When I am able to keep my Strength intact my runs go into the mid-to-late teens, even when I have terrible armor.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on June 06, 2015, 03:07:58 PM
I have more questions, guys...

What is the purpose of the potion that makes you float.  Is that somehow beneficial?

What is happening when I use a wand and it says I feel a tingling sensation?  It must be different than when my nose tingles because it does not help me find food, so something else must be going on.

What is happening when I read a scroll and it says I feel a strange sense of loss?

Does reading a scroll take a turn?

If I have a scroll of monster confusion, how/when do I use it?

Any chance any of you have played or would consider playing Rogue on Roku?  It's only 99 cents.  I want to know why I can't get very far - what about this version is harder than others... or is it just me?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: AgingMinotaur on June 08, 2015, 08:56:44 AM
I can probably help with a few of your questions …
What is the purpose of the potion that makes you float.  Is that somehow beneficial?
Not quite sure, but this might be a potion of levitation, that lets you pass over traps unharmed.

Quote
What is happening when I read a scroll and it says I feel a strange sense of loss?
That sounds like a scroll of scare monster, a very powerful item that's used in an unconventional way. See here a spoily page (http://www.maranci.net/rogue.htm) that describes how to use it, among other things (scroll down a bit to get to the relevant bits).

Quote
Does reading a scroll take a turn?
Yes.

Quote
If I have a scroll of monster confusion, how/when do I use it?
Read it; the next monster you hit, becomes confused.

Hope that helps. Good luck.

As always,
Minotauros
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: TheCreator on June 08, 2015, 09:39:10 AM
Quote
What is happening when I read a scroll and it says I feel a strange sense of loss?
That sounds like a scroll of scare monster, a very powerful item that's used in an unconventional way. See here a spoily page (http://www.maranci.net/rogue.htm) that describes how to use it, among other things (scroll down a bit to get to the relevant bits).

No it doesn't. Is sounds like you have missed an opportunity to get something very powerful or valuable. I haven't played too much Rogue so I don't really know what type of scroll it was, but in general, classic roguelike game messages are meaningful and can serve as hints.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: AgingMinotaur on June 08, 2015, 10:09:57 AM
Sorry, my bad. That would be a scroll of enchant weapon (or something along those lines?) Scare monster produces "a maniacal laughter" instead, if you read it.

As always,
Minotauros
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on June 09, 2015, 07:58:18 PM
Yes, levitation.  It is so rare that I would need to levitate over a known trap.  Kind of a junk potion, then.  I will say, when a trap of teleportation is in the doorway to the room that has the stairs, THEN it would really be helpful!

As far as scroll of monster confusion - YES, that is how to use it.  Read the scroll and it says my hands turn red.  What I should have asked is how to use a scroll of monster hold.  Do I just read it and ALL monsters on the floor are frozen for a short period?

I had a series of good runs this weekend including my first ever meeting with and eventual death to a Medusa.  I honestly don't see a way to beat her without some sort of action that short-circuits her ability to confuse/freeze me.  Considering I met her in a hallway, I was doomed. I also had my first run where I was able to get up to a strength of 20.

In my version of this game it is apparent to me that the amount of food I have in inventory can affect whether food appears on the next floor. Because of this, I have started eating my food just before I descend to the next floor to improve my chances of finding more food.

After rereading some posts, I think I've figured out that to use a bow I just need to equip it, then throw the arrows. I kept thinking that throwing an arrow would still throw it instead of firing it with my bow. Now that I've learned this I have had much better luck surviving Hobgoblins at low levels because arrows are so much more effective with the bow. They have also been a huge help against stationary enemies like Ice Monsters, Leprechauns, Nymphs (and their drops!), and any other monsters starting from a stationary position.

Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on June 09, 2015, 08:44:44 PM
What I should have asked is how to use a scroll of monster hold.  Do I just read it and ALL monsters on the floor are frozen for a short period?

No, only the monsters within 2 spaces of you. If there are none you get the "sense of loss" message.

Quote
What is happening when I use a wand and it says I feel a tingling sensation?  It must be different than when my nose tingles because it does not help me find food, so something else must be going on.

That's a wand of drain life, a powerful but risky item. It only works when there are monsters in sight.

Quote
In my version of this game it is apparent to me that the amount of food I have in inventory can affect whether food appears on the next floor. Because of this, I have started eating my food just before I descend to the next floor to improve my chances of finding more food.

Are you sure the amount of food in your inventory is the reason? In most versions, a food ration is guaranteed if no food was generated on the previous three levels.

If you've reached Medusas on level 18, you're doing quite well. (Here (http://rlgallery.org/scoring/rogue5.html) are some statistics for comparison.) Surviving the rest of the game requires a large amount of luck. I hope you make it!
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on June 10, 2015, 02:26:35 PM
What I should have asked is how to use a scroll of monster hold.  Do I just read it and ALL monsters on the floor are frozen for a short period?

No, only the monsters within 2 spaces of you. If there are none you get the "sense of loss" message.

Quote
What is happening when I use a wand and it says I feel a tingling sensation?  It must be different than when my nose tingles because it does not help me find food, so something else must be going on.

That's a wand of drain life, a powerful but risky item. It only works when there are monsters in sight.

Quote
In my version of this game it is apparent to me that the amount of food I have in inventory can affect whether food appears on the next floor. Because of this, I have started eating my food just before I descend to the next floor to improve my chances of finding more food.

Are you sure the amount of food in your inventory is the reason? In most versions, a food ration is guaranteed if no food was generated on the previous three levels.

If you've reached Medusas on level 18, you're doing quite well. (Here (http://rlgallery.org/scoring/rogue5.html) are some statistics for comparison.) Surviving the rest of the game requires a large amount of luck. I hope you make it!

Wow, good stuff. Any idea how long enemies are held once you use a scroll of hold monster?

No, I am not sure about my claims about rations. But it is extremely rare that I get Weak status with no food in my inventory. In all my runs I have only twice died of starvation, and that was in situations where I had trouble finding hidden passageways. Far more often I have five or more unused rations by the time I die.

Thanks for the support and statistics. Learning how to use the bow really advanced my game. To keep improving I need to learn what each item, scroll, enemy, etc. does. I know some versions have identify scrolls that allow you to identify whatever you want with them. I might have to try that sometime.

One final question for this post - when you level up, are there any hidden attributes that get bumped up? For example, we see that our HP goes up anywhere from 1-10ish. Does our strength or attack power or defense or dexterity/stealth go up and we just can't view it? Like when we put on a Ring of Stealth or Dexterity there's not really a way to visually see the affects on our attributes, right?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on June 10, 2015, 07:01:28 PM
Quote
Any idea how long enemies are held once you use a scroll of hold monster?

Until you attack them.

Quote
One final question for this post - when you level up, are there any hidden attributes that get bumped up?

Not hidden attributes, but some calculations are affected. As you've probably noticed, you heal faster. Each level up gives you a 5% greater chance of hitting a monster. You are less likely to be poisoned, paralyzed, robbed by leprechauns, etc. Healing potions get more effective. Dart and arrow traps seem to be more likely to hit you, though I can't guess why.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on June 10, 2015, 11:33:43 PM
Wow, this is great stuff.  Is there someplace where all this info you have is collected or a community out there?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on June 11, 2015, 02:06:40 PM
I usually source-dive, but the Vade-Mecum (http://rogue.rogueforge.net/vade-mecum/) includes nearly everything useful.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on June 11, 2015, 06:06:23 PM
I usually source-dive, but the Vade-Mecum (http://rogue.rogueforge.net/vade-mecum/) includes nearly everything useful.

Great resource, thank you!

How do you play Rogue? What roguelike game would you recommend to someone who likes Rogue and where could I get it?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on June 13, 2015, 08:54:09 PM
Made it to Medusa again...

I'm beginning to wonder how to even get past this point.  In my three battles against higher-level enemies (two vs Medusa and one vs Black Unicorn) I have not even had a chance. Absolutely obliterated.  In this run I had just fallen down a trapdoor, landed right next to a Medusa, and she confused me.  I then stumbled into a bear trap and the rest is history.

I was surprised how far I made it this run with the troubles I had:

- never improved from mace, but did get two enchantments for it
- found splint mail, but no way to protect from rust.  ended up using leather armor with two enchantments (and a third one late). it was rough going
- never improved strength and struggled mightily vs trolls with just 10 for strength
- found a +1 strength ring, but never used it.  had some other ring I never identified

did have some good fortune, though:

- found a wand of light early and used it a lot (and some other staff I never identified)
- quaffed a potion of skill just after getting to 7 taking me to 8, then another just after hitting 9 taking me to 10
- had lots of good increases in HP - ended up at about 72.  this always seems to be a key to my longer runs
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on June 18, 2015, 02:31:26 PM
I wrote an article (http://rlgallery.org/notes/surviving.html) about surviving the deep levels, with some general tips. I hope it's helpful.

About Medusas, have you tried fighting them in corridors? That way, if it confuses you, you either hit it or move away from it, and can't blunder right next to it where it can hit you for free.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on June 18, 2015, 08:27:06 PM
Love it.  It confirms things I have been experiencing myself.

The part about a +4 mace was extremely helpful.  Can you expand that to include info on a long sword?  I had a +2 long sword and switched to a two-handed sword recently, and wasn't sure if it was the right move.

I beat a Medusa and made it to 19.  Actually beat two Medusas... Medusae?  The whole scene was a blur.  Yes, one of them was in a hallway, but may have involved a scroll of monster confusion.  I also beat my first Vampire. I found a stationary Medusa and as I was positioning to try to take her out from afar (is that even sound strategy?) yet another emerged from the darkness and killed me. One thing I forgot to do was switch armor as, from what I understand, Aquators no longer appear after 18. That run I found THREE armors with a +3 enchantment!  I ended up using the +5 Leather and enchanting it twice.

Finally got to use the Scare Monster trick vs a Troll and one other. Too bad it turns to dust :)

Love your site. I'll check it out when I get home. How can I figure out what keystrokes do what?

What is your opinion of busting open hidden passages? I've been finding it helpful on tougher levels to leave them blocked to help control where the monsters come from. Like using them as stopgaps. Last thing I need is monsters coming from multiple directions. Sometimes this causes more moves which in turn causes more monsters to appear, but at least I'm controlling the flow. This can also cause monsters to stack up at a blockade which can be an issue if you need to then unblock it, but at least you'd be in a hallway fighting them one at a time and scoring some experience.

Finally used a scroll of monster hold.  Worked wonderfully!

Last but not least, I encountered my first treasure room maze... treasure maze?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: ant on June 19, 2015, 12:08:21 AM
the scare monster scroll won't turn to dust if you move on it without picking it up.

the drain life wand is very powerful but it also takes some of your own hit points.

in later levels the polymorph can save you in some tough spots.  also the teleports can at least buy you some time.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: ant on June 19, 2015, 12:25:31 AM
Elwin, it's great to see someone who's actually debugging code of the rogues.  i've done a fair bit of that too but sometimes i'm not sure i've helped.  :)

i have been working more on rogomatic so that really play tests the version of rogue i've been debugging too (a version of 5.4.4).  if you want to talk code/bugs perhaps i've found and fixed some you've not hit yet?  anyways the source code for both rogomatic and rogue that i've been messing with are at www.anthive.com/rog.html.

both rogomatic and rogue version i've been using are set up to use environment variables so that i can have replicable runs when debugging.   and i have debugging scripts (mostly bash) that i use to check my progress on finding/fixing bugs.

at the moment i'm stuck on fixing a bug in rogue (the hero gets into a strange place in the maze).  some of my previous changes may have brought this on.  hard for me to be sure as i'm getting so far now that it takes many tries to find a new bug.  and i find the code a bitch to read/understand at times.

some other things i've done with rogue is to make sure it generates more distinct messages because at times they are ambiguous or non-existent.  this helps rogomatic know what is going on.

as this is gardening season i'm not spending much time debugging or such, but if you want to send me a note at the e-mail (ant at anthive dot com) i'm always willing to chat about rogue and rogomatic.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on June 19, 2015, 12:26:15 PM
The part about a +4 mace was extremely helpful.  Can you expand that to include info on a long sword?

Good idea, I'll do that.

Quote
Love your site. I'll check it out when I get home. How can I figure out what keystrokes do what?

Hit the '?' key.

Quote
What is your opinion of busting open hidden passages?

I never thought of leaving them blocked. I'll have to try it.

@ant: I came across your work on Rog-O-Matic a few months ago and was intrigued. Right now I'm busy with new stuff for the Roguelike Gallery, but in a few weeks I should have the time to take a close look. Then maybe we can collaborate on squashing bugs.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on June 19, 2015, 09:01:17 PM
OK - I'm on your top ten list now  8)

MAN it is hard to get used to the keyboard. The worst thing I do is forget to wield my mace after using the bow.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on June 19, 2015, 11:50:44 PM
How can I cancel a command?  Like when I go to quaff something and change my mind what can I do?

How can I examine a trap to see what kind of trap it is?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on June 22, 2015, 01:52:20 PM
OK - I'm on your top ten list now

Well done!

Quote
How can I cancel a command?  Like when I go to quaff something and change my mind what can I do?

ESC to escape.

Quote
How can I examine a trap to see what kind of trap it is?

Stand next to it and hit '^' followed by the direction.

Someday I'm going to write a nice Web-based interface with tiles and things to click. Maybe I'll even get around to it this decade.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on June 22, 2015, 05:34:08 PM
Had an interesting run before bed last night.  I got to Floor 7 when I decided to go through my scrolls and potions.  First scroll I read was a scroll of identify potion.  I had two green potions, so I identified them.  TWO SKILL POTIONS!  My jaw dropped.  I waited for my next level up to use them and on Floor 8 I was at exp level 8.  The problem?  I never improved from my mace (and no enchantments), never improved my armor, and never found a way to waterproof (I was at 1 in short order).  Additionally, I had pretty good STR, so some battles against Quaggas and Centaurs were almost instantaneously over while others knocked my HP all the way down to nearly nothing.  A rare opportunity and just no way to capitalize on it.  I ended up dying at the hands of an orc after a Centaur knocked 48 HP off from one battle.  Other things I had going for me were an identified wand of polymorph and a ring of slow digestion.  Didn't help - what a waste.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: ant on July 02, 2015, 11:08:48 PM

@ant: I came across your work on Rog-O-Matic a few months ago and was intrigued. Right now I'm busy with new stuff for the Roguelike Gallery, but in a few weeks I should have the time to take a close look. Then maybe we can collaborate on squashing bugs.

thanks!  that would be fun.  :)
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 06, 2015, 07:49:59 PM
I wrote an article (http://rlgallery.org/notes/surviving.html) about surviving the deep levels, with some general tips. I hope it's helpful.

About Medusas, have you tried fighting them in corridors? That way, if it confuses you, you either hit it or move away from it, and can't blunder right next to it where it can hit you for free.

Just finished an interesting run on TRG. I never did upgrade my mace and found just one enchantment for it.  Never found a potion of restore strength, so suffered with an 11 STR for most of the game. And I never found an armor, so my Ring Mail quickly went to 1 and stayed there.  But two keys to this run - found a wand of teleport monster with 7 charges and identified two scrolls of scare monster.  On my last scroll of scare monster I tried to pair it with a scroll of aggravate monster, but I hadn't opened up enough of the level yet, so they all piled up at this one doorway. So close to having a really big score.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on July 08, 2015, 12:12:23 AM
You reached #3, that's still a big score.

I arrived on a level in the middle of a treasure room and lived, which I don't think I've ever done before.  There was a two-handed sword in the loot!  But then I got less than 3 HP from multiple levelings up and quickly got crushed by a Centaur.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 08, 2015, 12:49:37 PM
You reached #3, that's still a big score.

I arrived on a level in the middle of a treasure room and lived, which I don't think I've ever done before.  There was a two-handed sword in the loot!  But then I got less than 3 HP from multiple levelings up and quickly got crushed by a Centaur.

Wow, that is tough!  I once survived, although "in the middle" could be debated.  I ran for the doorway and absorbed about three hits along the way... then beat 'em all.  I haven't seen a two handed sword in probably 20 runs  :( 

In a recent run after killing probably ten Rattlesnakes at STR 7 without taking a hit one dragged me down 3 STR.  Man, once that happens just about any enemy can defeat you.

Last night I had a decent run that wasn't going to go anywhere, but I was still able to get to exp level 7 with not much going for me.  As soon as I breached the threshold of a room and Ice Monster attacked me!  You know what that means, treasure room.  He froze me and with an Aquator right behind me I must have had to click next about 50 times before I died of hypothermia.  I hate dying like this.  I much prefer the helpless feeling when you come to the slow realization you're about to die.  Not, SURPRISE! Hypothermia!
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 25, 2015, 06:56:27 PM
Had a couple of interesting recent runs...

On one of them four of my first five scrolls were identify scroll.  It was nice being able to identify scrolls as I found them.

I just finished the other one.  On level 10 I fell in a trap after moving just a few steps.  Then after a few more steps I fell to level 11.  Essentially losing these two floors really hurt me and my inventory.  One of the things it caused was for me to run low on food.  After using my last rations, I was dropped into a maze that was connected to another maze that was connected to a room that was connected to yet another maze.  Rough on the ol' appetite. After navigating all these mazes there was a line of enemies waiting for me.  I took out a zombie, a centaur, a quagga, and a yeti, but another yeti knocked me down to 4 HP. I hit the stairs and decided to use my two unknown potions knowing I had a healing potion in case one was for blindness.  The first one confused me.  The second one caused me to hallucinate.  I heal and move one step to my right when I realize I'm in a treasure room with no escape. The funniest part might be that I died with zero gold. Leprechauns robbed my ass four times.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: ant on August 03, 2015, 04:04:58 PM
...
The funniest part might be that I died with zero gold. Leprechauns robbed my ass four times.

*laughing*  that's a rotten streak of bad luck...
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on August 03, 2015, 08:15:57 PM
Just now saw this link in the reddit link in the original post - interest advice:  http://www.coredumpcentral.org/docs/finlywon.pdf (http://www.coredumpcentral.org/docs/finlywon.pdf)

I had never used the ring of stealth, so I'll have to check it out next time.  What does it help you do, exactly?

Also, I don't understand this section:

Scrolls:
I tend to read every scroll I find to id it. I also try to make monsters
walk over each scroll to save the first scare monster. If this is not
possible due to the scroll being in a corner/doorway, I save the scroll
until I can id it or find scare monster.


What is he talking about with "make monsters walk over each scroll?"  Does it apply to V5?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on August 04, 2015, 05:33:08 PM
What is he talking about with "make monsters walk over each scroll?"  Does it apply to V5?

Monsters will not step on a scroll of scare monster, even if you are not standing on top of it. This lets you identify such scrolls without having to use them. It works in V5.

The ring of stealth makes monsters more likely to stay asleep. I'll have to look up the details.

That link is valuable. I was going to object to his saying armor isn't critical, but I realized he's concerned about the 20+ levels, where everything nasty hits you almost all the time even if you have great AC. Slightly good players like me are just trying to make it to level 18, where armor still matters.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on August 04, 2015, 06:35:37 PM
After reading that link I had my best game on RLG.  Maybe coincidence.

On Floor 20 they dropped me right next to a Griffin. I had a wand of slow monster, but I thought maybe the Griffin would be asleep and gambled. The gamble was a bad one.  Then I did zap him, but he still got a turn in before getting a turn skipped. Then I forgot the hit and run strategy and ran right into a Griffin Black Unicorn sandwich.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: FamesYASD on August 09, 2015, 03:53:46 PM
Rogue v5.4.4 winner's here. I can answer to almost any of the questions about the game and  give tips/hints to it so feel free to ask.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: FamesYASD on August 09, 2015, 05:05:19 PM
Alright, since this thread is pretty dead I'm posting my guide right now and for future:
1)Open Rogue.exe
2)Do you see any ')' symbol on the screen in the first room of the first level?
If no then restart game, if yes then:
3)Is it 2 handed sword?
If no then restart game, if yes then:
4)Is it cursed?
If yes then restart game, if no then:
Early game:
5)Rogue is at exp level 1. Equip your mace, kill everything  with bow and arrows from the distance if possible. After every fight restore to 10-12 hp then explore level further.
6)Congratulations, your Rogue is  probably at level 2. Now kill only hobgoblins  with bow.
7)Congratulations, you Rogue is at level 3. Equip 2h sword, kill only Rattlesnakes  with bow and arrows. Shoot Ice monsters from at least 5 grids range, otherwise do not touch them(you may tho but only if they stop you from exploring level) Throwing arrows without bow is a waste. Other missiles are good to throw without bow.
8)Congratulations, you Rogue is at level 4,5. If you meet a centaur at level 5 kill him with arrows.
9)Congratulations, your Rogue is at level 6,7,8. From now on you will need arrows only for Rattlesnakes, Ice monsters, Nymphs. Don’t touch wraiths if they sleep and shoot at leprechauns if you need exp.
10)Now you come to the Troll country, they are not that hard to beat with 2h sword you will need to hit them 2 or more likely 3 times to defeat, you will miss quite a lot tho. Don’t be afraid of using scrolls/wands/potions to survive. If you have lots of food/ring of slow digestion feel free to farm exp to become  Rogue level 9 at dungeon lvl 12.
11)Congratulations, you Rogue is at level 9. Wraiths are really no threat with 2h sword you may even abuse them ( if you got low hp boost after lvl up) to get lowered by them in level and then kill them to get more hitpoints on new lvl than it was on previous one. But don’t risk to touch sleeping Wraiths.
Also, it sometimes may be a great idea to stay a bit on 16 level to farm exp up to become a Rogue’s level 10 before encountering black unicorns.
12)Congratulations, you Rogue is at level 10. Black Unicorns is a real  big threat due to high damage/evasion rating and even being on level 10 usually doesn’t give much bonuses to you. If you meet them and if your 2 first hits do fail to hit then use something from inventory to survive, if they do  not then you might try to kill them in kiting. From now on you rush on levels (this means you should act like a simple Rogue: you see a staircases you run to them and go deeper)
13)Congratulations, your Rogue is at level11. Medusa’s aren’t a threat if you manage them properly:
From now on  (level 18-26) stay in doors of every room and search for 5-6 turns, even if Medusa shows up to kill you and at worst confuses you, you can only go back in tonnel or hit her, Since she dies in 3-4 hits and is easy to hit you should be able to deal with her with no problems.
14)Congratulations, you Rogue is at level 12,13,14 etc. The only real problem on such experience level is Dragon. If ‘D’ aggroes on you zap him with the wand of polymorth, if you have one obv. If you don’t then just fight him drink heal potions and at worst drop scare scroll or read tp out scroll. Dragons are doing tons of damage but they have very low hp and die in 3-4 hits (usually in 3). 
15) After that you’ve found an Amulet it removes all you hunger (so it basically acts like 2 rings of slow digestion) so you  may freely search for trapdoor traps.
16)After that you’ve been lucky enough to come on level 19(No dragons’ threat anymore) you are basically a winner of the game. There are no treasure/gold piles on the way back and Nymphs/Leprechauns came to not dropping such either so be careful with your items inventory management.
All hp monsters conversation into the number of 2h sword hits is applied to +0/+0 sword and 16 str character. Also , sorry for English.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: FamesYASD on August 09, 2015, 06:15:43 PM
Some monster tips:
‘B’ats are quite annoying at first levels due to their very high evasion rating however they can be kited with ranged weapon easily like this:
1)if it stands next to you, you go to the back side;
2)if it does follow you then repeat the first step;
3)if it doesn’t follow you -> you shoot it  if shooting trajectory allows you to do so if not then go to the back side again and repeat the process
‘E’mus are the easiest enemies in the game and even on exp level  1 you may not waste arrows on them
‘S’nakes, ‘K’estrels and ‘H’obgoblins are listed according to the graduation in threat and should be killed from distance.
Vs ‘I’ce monsters tacticks are described in previous post.
‘R’attlesnakes are pretty much much no threat at all if you kill them at distance if possible since strength recovering potions are quite often to be found and real problems with strength start at 5(16) strength; and at 6(16) str you are just a liiiiitle bit less powerful than at 16(16) strength so take a note on that.
‘O’rcs, ‘Z’ombies are not dangerous to the average health boosted characters (5 hp per level is average).
Always try to kill ‘L’eprechauns at least in melee for potential experience.
‘C’entaurs are usually killed in 2-3 hits (More likely in 3).
‘Q’uaggas are usually killed in1-3 hits(Usually in 2)
How to counter ‘A’quators:  wear leather armor if possible, if you do not have such armor or scroll of armor protection then do not wear any armor at all. Don’t worry you can still handle ‘C’ and ‘Q’ on level 7 or even 6. Just regen to 80% of total hp after a fight and you’re good to go!
‘Y’etis  are no stronger than ‘C’ and ‘Q’, they hit you quite often but  also are easy to hit too,  so they can be described in 4 words: free loot and experience.
‘N’ymps are usually killed from distance of at least 5 grids or you can drop all that stuff that you do not wield and wear and put on and then kill her freely to get free treasure.  !If you have scroll of scare monster in inventory then you have 2 options: to kill her from distance or to ignore!
Venus ‘F’lytraps is just a free exp also if you get caught in its traps  while having another monster in that room don’t panic. That monster can’t do anything until you deal with the ‘F’lytrap,  but when you DO have to worry it’s when you’ve been first hit or chased by that monster and then caught by a venus ‘F’lytrap.
‘T’rolls , ‘W’raiths, black ‘U’nicorns , ‘M’edusas and ‘D’ragons  were explained in the post above.
‘P’hantoms usually sleep so they don’t hit you first unless you’ve touched them by accident, also if you poly some monster into ‘P’ it will sleep until you touch it. Kiting-throwing tactics work with them just as well as with bats.
‘X’erocs are a piece of cake.
‘V’ampires usually die in 3 hits and not easy to hit but they are no threat.
‘G’riffins die in3-5 hits(average is 4) and ‘J’abberwocks die in 5-7hits (average is 6). Griffins are always aggressive and Jabberwocks are not, so if Jabberwock is in sleep he will sleep until he is being touched.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: FamesYASD on August 09, 2015, 06:51:34 PM
The art of item identification:
Scrolls:
There is only 1 type of scroll that can be identified without reading it ,- scroll of scare monster. From the very level 1 once you see a scroll you wait for monster to come through it and if monster avoids it on its path then without a doubt you have a scare monster scroll. This waitness requires turns which means waste of food so you might not do this trick on some scrolls to save food, but in that case when you read scrolls on level  8 and earlier use scroll identification scrolls on such possible scare monster scrolls.
Always leave 1 unidentified scroll in inventory if you haven’t found scroll of scroll identification yet. Because this one scroll might be it and it will be a disappointment to waste it.
Potions:
Start quaffing potions when you have no inventory space for items left AND 16(16)str. Or when you have 5(16)strength or on level 12.
First read scrolls then quaff potions.
Wands/staffs:
Use them to identify in lit room on leprechauns from at least 5 grids range.
TP monster  to yourself: ‘L’ appears near you and tries to hit you.
Haste monster: ‘L’ start moving to you with two grids per turn.
Slow monster: ‘L’ moves one tile while you can move two.
Light: I don’t remember but the phrase about this wand includes word ‘room’
Poly or monster’s ability cancellation: ‘L’ will turn into another English letter OR will remain the same in that case let him hit you if it steals your gold after successful hit then it’s polymorph if not then it’s wand of cancellation.
Magic missile, cold, fire, lightning identify automatically.
If you are left with the half of your current hp then it’s: -50% of your current hp goes as damage to the monster staff.
If ‘L’ disappears then it’s either tp monster out staff which you can check by going on grid occupied by Leprechaun or make monster invisible or polymorph ; in that case if monster steals you gold with hit it was make invis and  if it hits hard and doesn’t disappear then it’s poly.
Identify wands whenever possible.
Rings:
If cursed:
Randomly tp all over the level – it’s teleport ring; Ice monsters, Nymphs and leprechauns start agro on you – aggro monsters ring; if you have lesser strength – minus strength ring; if it requires for you to make more hits for monster to die than usual – it’s minus damage ring; if you miss more often – it’s minus hit to chance ring; if monster hit you more often than usual then it’s a minus armor ring.
If not cursed:
Ring of searching: You can find traps by simply going near them and searching take 1-3 turns instead of 5-11.
Armor/strength sustain – Aquators/rattlesnakes can’t low your armor/strength.
Regeneration ring – you start to regen 1 hp per turn.
Ring of stealth: Aggro monsters such as quaggas, trolls may not aggro at you and continue to sleep when you enter room.
Slow digestion: If your hunger-weak or weak-faint stage lasts a lot longer that 150turns with ring being put on then it’s slow digestion ring.
See invis: you can see phantoms now.
+arm/+str/+dmg/+to hit chance rings effects are idenfied in an analogy to the cursed ones.
The most often rings to find are searching/see invis/slow digestion and stealth rings.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: FamesYASD on August 09, 2015, 07:47:01 PM
How to counter negative game effects and abuse positive ones:
Traps: shoot arrow – deals 1-6 hp damage it’s not that bad and you can even have free projectile to throw if it misses(you may abuse this on higher exp levels)
Sleeping gas/bear trap/poison dart trap: always bad
Random effects trap does nothing except of printing fancy messages on your game screen
TelePort trap is usually good: acts like a tp scroll
Trapdoor trap: before level 17 is bad, on levels 18 to 26 is great as it helps you to rush trough levels, on the way back it’s terrifyingly evil.
Scrolls: sleep/monster summon/aggro- always bad, never read after identification
Weapon up –read whenever is possible,  armor up/armor protection read on your best suit of armor (in the meaning of protection value).
Map – read at the beginning of 26 level and on the way back to avoid possible trapdoor traps.
Food – if you have one then read it at the beginning of 26 level to see the location of amulet of yendor , if you have more than 1 read those  extras on level 17 to 25, leaving one for level 26. On the way back they become useless due to no treasure/food on the wayback.
Confusion – has very high value, very useful, best use in hallways aka tonnels you can slay a very powerful monster with that scroll coz it will skip a lots of turns while you keep hitting it. It’s not very good use for black unicorns on low Rogue exp level, because to get the confusion effect on monster you need to hit them and it’s very hard to hit a black unicorn. So best use is against griffins/jabberwocks and dragons.
Tp scroll use if you have nowhere else to run . Effect can be failed so you will teleport to the adjacent tile.
Remove curse – best use when you put on all rings, try all armor so it can uncurse more things at once.
Monster summon – if you summon nymph and kill her she will not drop anything.
Scare- if you play your cards right you will never see a ‘you hear a maniacal laughter in distance’ message on your screen. Best use is when you appear on new level right in a treasure room (Starting from level 12 and so ). Beware of Dragons ,their flame can roast you on the scroll.
Freeze(hold monster) puts nearby monsters to sleep, they will sleep until you touch them. Best use when you when you have nowhere to run and there are more than 1 monster chasing you. If you are being chased by only 1 monster it’s better to use tp scroll instead. (if you have one obv.)
Potions:  monster vision – best use on levels 20-26 if you’ve spent a lot of time on some level or if you appear in the treasure maze room or right after when you’ve teleported out some monster or teleported yourself.
Poison – best use is to cancel hallucation effect.
Hallucation is always bad/blindness is always bad.
Heal/extra heal cure blindness also if you heal with them to full they grant you +1 or +2 max hp.
Heal potion heals like Rogue level d5 and extra one heals Rogue leveld10 but I’m not sure.
Confusion is always bad, counters by standing still. ALWAYS stand still under confusion effect.
Levitation is used to fly over traps.
See invis to see Phantoms
See treasure is used on lvl 26 to see amulet of yendor. If you have extra use them at the beginning of level from 17 to 25
Haste is used to kite monster, note that monster doesn’t hit you after quaffing it so for example you have 5 hp left and there is troll standing near you, you quaff that potion and you can go back and only then troll makes its step forwards you and after that you can easily kite him down.
Lvl up is best use to get from level 10 to 11 to be able to kill unicorns or if found later to lvl up from lvl 13 to 14 or from 14 to 15 etc
Staffs have at least 4 charges to the  best max of 7.
Tp monster to is really useless/ haste monster is worst/make invis is good but only if you also have light wand in hand to lit room first and then if medusa comes to make her invis fom distance so she won’t be able to confuse otherwise that staff is useless.
Magic missile is ok to spend instead of projectiles, light is great as it has a lot of charges (like 20 or 30)
Polymorph is great as it helps to deal with dragons (sure, whatever the outcome is  there’s nothing stronger than dragon anyways) or other strong creatures.
Slow monster is great against almost everyone except dragons since they can shoot you.
Cancellation monster ability is very good to cancel dragon’s flame, to cancel out aggressive ice monsters in treasure rooms or to deal with wraiths and vampires.
-50% hp is an utter shit never worth to use except on nymphs, aggressive ice monsters or wraiths, always puts you in a great danger.
Tp out is also VERY nice wand.
Flame isn’t good it misses a lot and doesn’t work against dragons.
Cold Is a little bit better, it doesn’t deal damagae to yetis but it doesn’t matter.
Lightning is best of them it almost never misses and no one immune to it.
The best use of this ranged damage wands on later 13+ lvls  to use them on strong enemies instead of bow and arrows.
Rings: Slow digestion put on whenever you identify it. Sustain armor/strength only when encounter ‘R’ s and ‘A’s. Stealth ring put on at the staircases to the lvl 20. +dmg/to hit chance/armor/strength put on at lvl 17+. Regen doesn’t worth food consumption  if you are exp  level 10 already, it’s good in early game.
See invis is almost useless. Put on search ring on level 26 and on the way back.  uncursed teleport ring can act like a tp scroll/tp trap quite often and save you from chasing monsters.
Also, never use your best suit of armor unless it’s protected by scroll or you are on level 19 already, from level 1-8 use your second best suit of armor and from 9-18 it’s either leather armor or no armor at all.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on August 11, 2015, 07:17:30 PM
This is good stuff.  What are the approximate odds that you start out with a 2-handed sword in the room you start in?

I don't have a way to quickly restart my game on my Roku version, but I could online.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: FamesYASD on August 12, 2015, 06:13:08 AM
i have in average three 2h swords in 200 games so it's ~1,5%.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: FamesYASD on August 12, 2015, 06:35:15 AM
fix about armor use:
it plays a huge role on  Rogue exp level 1-5, so it's still better to risk and use your best found piece of armor at these levels, + the risk actually is not that huge due to the lack of traps on early levels and absense of 'A'quators.
 Also, it's better to start using best found armor again starting from level 17+ because aquators are not that widely spread at deeper levels and the risk of meeting 'U' or 'M' while rushing from 17 level to 19 is still pretty huge. 'M' has not very high chance of hitting character so even average +6 or +7 armor is good to go.
Other monster tho like 'D', 'G', and 'J' with 'V' has such a great  hitting chance that there is basically no difference between no armor character and +10 armor character;you will need to have at least 11+ armor to feel the diffrence,
but nevertheless armor plays VERY important role in dodging Dragons' fire:  +6 armor makes you dodge ~50% of ranged attacks on level 11-12, and 10+ armor on levels 12+basically  makes a proof vs flames.
So, it is not a mandatory to have great amor to beat the game(4+ armor is enough), When i won the game i had +5 armor in the end.
However, it is pretty much a mandatory to have lots of damage which means  a lot of strength and a really good enchanted weapon, i had +3/+6 2h sword and 19 str in the end.
Also, you should have at least 1 scare monster scroll, which is a rare finding but in every game there is at least 1 of them.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: FamesYASD on August 12, 2015, 10:03:21 AM
about hp:
it almost doesn't ever matter how high or low boost of health you get per lvl in the beginning of the game, in the end of most games at exp level 12-14 you health will be around 80 points so when you have like ~20 hp at level 3 or even at level 4 don't worry about the late game, if you are able to survive mid-early game, usually game begins to get you  more hp per lvl to get you to 80hp at exp levels 12 to 14;
 visa versa even if you have ~30 hp at level 3 or ~40 hp at level 4 don't be very relieved, in 95% of cases game will start giving you like 1-4 hp per lvl so you will be at the same (80) hp at level 12-14.
Having this amount of hitpoints at such levels means that your average health boost per level was ~5 to the very best of 6 in most of games and that's more than enough to be able to beat the game.
Also, use your heal/extra heal potions to heal yourself in fights, it is a huge waste and mistake to use them to upgrade max hp because for example:  having 5 more max hitpoints means literally nothing in fight with dragon/jabberwock/griffin etc because they will at worst 2-3 hit you anyway but what DOES matter is your  possiility to almost fully restore your hitpoints and then deal/survive another couple of attacks!
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on August 13, 2015, 02:56:51 PM
Congratulations on winning!

The tip about farming XP on levels 12 or 16 sounds useful. So does waiting in doorways to see if Medusas or anything else nasty is awake inside.

Warning: if you are playing online and quit whenever there's no two-handed sword, you will get a lot of zeroes on your score page. I don't have a good way of filtering them like the NetHack and DCSS tournaments do.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on September 09, 2015, 05:29:18 PM
I haven't been posting because I went weeks without finding a two handed sword and kept having short runs.

Finally, this morning I hit the jackpot.  A two handed sword and FIVE enchantments.  But I still managed to blow it.  My defense was poor and a Troll knocked me down to 14.  I was at exp level 9, so started running to get my hp back up when I ran right into a Centaur.  The Centaur knocked me down to 4 HP and then the Troll finished me off.  Stupid, stupid.  I had a wand of teleport away to use on the Troll and a couple of HP potions.  It didn't help that I had a zero armor thanks to the Aquators.  What a waste.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on September 27, 2015, 09:23:09 PM
What a cruel, cruel game.  I finally found a one-handed sword early and was getting ridiculously high increases in HP at level ups.  Problem?  NO FOOD. I die on floor 6 after finding only one ration and getting lost in a couple hellish floors where I could not find hidden passages.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on October 27, 2015, 06:01:13 PM
@elwin - any idea when the site will be back up?

I'm having some of my best runs when I find a staff of slow monster.  Finding one of those is essentially getting a free victory against a tough enemy as long as you don't get ambushed in the middle of using it.  In general, I'm finding staves to be more likely to be of value (and of greater value) than most rings.  So many rings are cursed or just not worth the toll on your appetite.  I will sometimes even use a scroll of identify on a staff/wand when I know what it is just to find out how many charges it has left over identifying an unknown ring. The odds are just so low that the ring will be of any value to me.  Only regen, slow digestion, and stealth seem to be of any great value, unless I'm forgetting any.

I finally got to experiment with the ring of stealth.  I see now why it is valuable.  It keeps all monsters "frozen" that originally inhabit the floor (from what I can tell).  The catch is that any monsters that spawn are not affected by it (from what I can tell).

I had my most embarrassing play about a month ago.  I have started dropping my best stuff when I am about to engage a Nymph.  In one particular battle I dropped a bunch of good stuff, the Nymph stole some worthless thing from me, and then I picked all my good stuff back up.  Once I got to the Trolls I was ready to use my two (identified) scrolls of scare monster.  But where were they?  I then realized I had DROPPED THEM BOTH before facing the Nymph and never noticed them turn to dust as I attempted to pick them back up.  DOH!
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on October 31, 2015, 11:03:06 PM
Two questions:

1.  Why is it that the amount of gold on the leaderboard is less than the amount of gold you die with?  For example, I just died with 5044 gold and the leaderboard says I had 4540.

2.  When I drop an item and then kill an enemy on the same floor who drops something - they drop what I dropped, and what I dropped disappears.  Is this supposed to happen or is it a glitch?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Avagart on October 31, 2015, 11:19:02 PM
Which version of Rogue do you play? It sounds strange, and I never encountered these (I think so) bugs.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on November 01, 2015, 03:04:47 AM
5.4.4

It happens at rlgallery.org and the port on my Roku (for both).
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Avagart on November 01, 2015, 02:18:12 PM
1) Ouh, it happens :D I don't know why, it's strange. But I think this is intentional, because I checked other versions (Rogue 5.4.4, 3.6.1, Rogue 1.0, Classic Rogue 2.5, TileRogue 2.3) and I encountered this issue in every game.
2) Hm, maybe this monster just took item which you dropped?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Ancient on November 02, 2015, 10:03:59 AM
1.  Why is it that the amount of gold on the leaderboard is less than the amount of gold you die with?  For example, I just died with 5044 gold and the leaderboard says I had 4540.

There is flat 10% finders fee given to whomever finds your half-digested corpse. This is to differentiate between quitters who keep all their gold.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on November 02, 2015, 03:41:57 PM
A-ha.  Well if that's how it is it's fair for everyone.  Sounds good.

Another item of interest - I've noticed Centaurs don't appear until Floor 7.  That is, unless you find a treasure room on Floor 6.  Then it is possible for a Centaur to appear a floor early.  Anyone else notice this?  I figured I was wrong until it happened a second time.

I had an incredible run last night with two loaded treasure rooms in the first ten floors. So much going for me... two handed sword with a couple of enchantments, no STR issues, plenty of food, good HP bumps, wand of polymorph, two wands of slow monster with approx ten total charges, a scroll of scare monster, etc.  But for the third time this weekend Wraiths ate me alive.  At one point I was at exp level 10 until a wraith knocked me down two notches.  I was not attacking stationary ones.  They were just plain getting hits on me.  I wonder if it had to do with me having poor armor. I never did find waterproofing.  Ultimately, I died at the hands of a Black Unicorn despite having some options.  I had refilled my HP to 38 to use my slow monster.  His free hit on me took it all...
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on November 11, 2015, 03:25:01 PM
I am really not understanding something about this game.  Perhaps it is my inability to understand what is already known about the game probably due to my lack of experience playing other fantasy games like D&D.

Here is what is getting me:

What affects how much damage you take when you get hit?
What affects your ability to dodge an attack?
What affects how much damage you do when your attack hits?
What affects whether you hit your opponent?

Last night I had a great scenario.  I had two rings of slow digestion, a two handed sword with one enchantment, and two identified scrolls of scare monster.  On Floor 13 I did some harvesting to get to experience level 10.  But as I advanced I was not getting enough hits in.  Trolls were dodging my attacks at such a high rate that I was nearly down to nothing when I would beat them.  Even more frustrating was that this would happen against Phantoms as well, and they aren't usually that hard to beat.  Part of the issue may have been my 1 armor (thanks Aquators!) but my attacks were missing quite often.  In the end, a stupid Phantom ended my run way too early... partly due to my frustration.

The FAQ on GameFAQs says that Dexterity is what determines whether you hit your enemy.  But how do you know what your Dexterity is?  The Vade Mecum says that dexterity gains are as random as HP gains at level ups (if I understand correctly), so maybe it's a hidden attribute and we have no idea whether we're getting good gains or bad ones?

Thank you for an insights...
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on November 13, 2015, 02:54:47 PM
So last night I had my best run ever, but I could tell there was something else going on.

First of all, I never improved from my mace.  I did find some enchantments along the way.  But I am certain that my dexterity or something must have been getting big boosts because I was eventually beating Trolls and even defeated a Black Unicorn and three Medusas.  My run ended when I had to face yet another Medusa when I was dropped right next to one in an open room.  That was about Floor 21 or 22.  I had over 5k gold.  If not for that bad luck I think I could have made it a couple floors further.

I did not have a lot going for me.  Just one scroll of scare monster which helped me against a Medusa and nothing more.  No rings of significance - just a ring of see invisible.  Only two wands - a polymorph with 3 charges and a wand of light.  I never did find waterproofing for my shield.  Again, there had to be something else going on with my dexterity or my ability to evade attacks or something.  I was often with weak armor until Floor 18.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Ancient on November 15, 2015, 02:45:31 AM
Interesting. From what I read about Rogue you are not supposed to kill every late game baddie but to avoid them, as monsters grow faster in power than your character does. Me, I have been hardly successful at surviving long.

No idea about answers to your mechanics questions. However, earlier in this thread you wrote your version is based on 5.4.4. Source to this version is freely available. When I read up on the code and get some understanding I am going to come back. For now let me just say I enjoy your story of trying to beat Rogue.

In the meantime spoiler for Rogue 5.3 says this:
Quote
When you attack a monster, your chance of hitting it is 5%, plus 5% times your experience level, plus 5% times the monster's armor class.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on November 20, 2015, 08:47:23 PM
Maybe I need to stop dropping off the Internet. Sorry about rlgallery.org downtime. Sometimes the hosting company reboots the server, and then I have to find out about it and manually restart the Web player. But if the scoreboard page is up, you should be able to play via SSH.

About the 10% death tax: the original developers wanted to give people a tough choice between quitting with a higher score and maybe surviving to do even better. But nobody ever quits.

About items disappearing and reappearing: yes, certain monsters will pick them up.

About the mechanics: they are really quite simple, unlike later games which apply complicated formulas to everything.

Quote
What affects how much damage you take when you get hit?
The monster. Each monster type has a particular number of hit dice with a particular number of sides. They all get rolled and added up.

Quote
What affects your ability to dodge an attack?
The monster's level and your AC.

Quote
What affects how much damage you do when your attack hits?
Your weapon.  It has hit dice just like monsters do.

Quote
What affects whether you hit your opponent?
Your experience level and the monster's AC, just like when it attacks you.

Dexterity does not exist in Rogue. Leveling up gives a 5% boost to your chance to hit, every time.

Maybe you don't understand everything, but you and Pertinax are certainly tearing up my high score list.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Pertinax on November 20, 2015, 09:49:09 PM
Hi elwin,

Thanks for running the rlgallery service. I've been having lots of fun with it.

I used ssh during the web service downtime. A tip for anyone else that's using a mac: I had to change my default "stty erase ^?" to "stty erase ^H" in order to stop my mac terminal from interfering with the in-game ctrl-H cmd to run left until something happens.

Dexterity does not exist in Rogue. Leveling up gives a 5% boost to your chance to hit, every time.

I've seen a ring of +dexterity in the game. Based on my reading (e.g., see https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Rogue_(game) (https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Rogue_(game))), it affects hit chance.

Another item of interest - I've noticed Centaurs don't appear until Floor 7.  That is, unless you find a treasure room on Floor 6.  Then it is possible for a Centaur to appear a floor early.  Anyone else notice this?  I figured I was wrong until it happened a second time.

More generally, I've noticed that all monsters can appear in a treasure room one level earlier than they otherwise would.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Ancient on November 21, 2015, 01:27:10 AM
Elwin beat me to the answers. Indeed, the ring of dexterity is just fancier name of "to-hit" ring.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on November 21, 2015, 07:41:22 PM
Hi Pertinax, I'm glad you're having fun. If it wasn't for you and the few other players who showed up recently, I might have shut down the server, but I certainly can't now.

You're right about the ring of dexterity. I should have said there's no internal dexterity stat. Like Ancient said, the ring works by getting added into the calculations along with your weapon's to-hit bonus.

Is anyone interested in a tournament? I tried to hold one before, but no one came.

Also, does anyone ever watch ttyrec files? Would you if I made it possible to replay them in the Web player?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on November 21, 2015, 10:57:56 PM
elwin - glad to see you back!  Yes, interested in a tournament.

Pertinax - I was hoping you'd show!  I got to watch one of your runs that is in the top 10.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Pertinax on November 22, 2015, 05:05:14 AM
Is anyone interested in a tournament? I tried to hold one before, but no one came.

Yeah, I'd be interested in a tournament. I'd suggest multiple games per round to offset the rng and to allow for some strategic decisions across games.

Also, does anyone ever watch ttyrec files? Would you if I made it possible to replay them in the Web player?

I installed a ttyrec player a while back and took a look at some of the games (after coming to the horrific realization that all of my game-losing mistakes are immortalized). I'd probably do this more often if there were a web interface.

Speaking of feature requests, it would be cool to be able to filter my past games based on score or max dungeon level reached, rather than just having an arbitrarily long table where a third of the entries are "killed by a hobgoblin on lvl 1." In conjunction with the ttyrec playback, this could make it more convenient to find a user's best games and play them back.

Pertinax - I was hoping you'd show!  I got to watch one of your runs that is in the top 10.

I'd been meaning to register here and join in the conversation for a while. You've had some great runs yourself.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Ancient on November 22, 2015, 01:54:01 PM
I would gladly join a tournament instead of just playing locally, although my Rogue skills are thoroughly rusty. I rarely watch playbacks but when this happens ttyrec is no obstacle. Having web player installed is not going to make a difference for me.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on November 23, 2015, 02:01:08 PM
Just so you guys know, not only do I not know much about dice-rolls, but I also don't know much about computers. But I'm willing to try for something as awesome as a Rogue event!

Just curious what it looks like. Are we watching each other play or is the format conducive to some sense of community?  I would love to be able to chat during runs on rlg. When Pertinax was playing last night I tried to fit his game and my game on my screen at one time, but they didn't fit very well.

It's amazing how much difference a long sword or two handed sword makes.  I struggled all weekend until finally getting weapons upgrades and suddenly was able to do something.  Barely missed the top ten in (virtually) back-to-back runs.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on November 24, 2015, 04:23:09 PM
I am using the fight command too much.  It just ended a really quality start.  I had a two handed sword with two enchantments, a wand of light, and a ring of slow digestion.  On Floor 8 I dropped into a treasure room.  I immediately killed two hobgoblins before a Centaur approached me.  I should have slowly taken the battle blow by blow, but instead used the fight command.  While engaged with the Centaur an Ice Monster came up and froze me and just like that my run was over.  What made this even more egregious was that I had a scroll of teleportation identified and didn't get to use it.  The shame...

Speaking of Ice Monsters in treasure rooms, I have actually used the wand of drain life a few times in situations like these where Ice Monsters are activated and I only have one or two moves to do something about it.  I also used the wand of cancel in a recent run and enjoyed robbing all the Leprechauns.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on November 24, 2015, 09:25:05 PM
So after that death described above, I had another wild run.  I made it to Floor 22 with only a mace, although it had four enhancements and I got my STR up to 20 (for damage bonus?).

I beat a few Medusas, although technically it was thanks to the wand of polymorph.  I only beat one in straight up hand-to-hand combat because she hadn't confused me.  I also beat my first Griffin!  I met him in a hallway and read a scroll of monster confusion.  He got some good hits in on me but eventually I got my good hit in on him and was able to back away while throwing arrows (stupid Nymph stole my bow!).

Other key finds:

One wand of polymorph - saved me from at least three Medusas
One scroll of teleportation - saved me when I tried to zap a Medusa with polymorph and I had run out
One scroll of monster confusion - Griffin
One potion of haste - beat a Black Unicorn
Waterproofing for shield
Two treasure rooms
Lots of scrolls of identify scroll
Lots of mazes - love those in the later levels

Did not find any monster hold or scare monster scrolls.  No extra healing, good rings, or any other wands of use.
No Wraiths knocked me down in EXP - ended up at exp lvl 11

But the bad news is that other than a 700+ mother lode from a Lephrechaun I had very little gold luck. Still got on the leaderboard though.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on November 26, 2015, 09:08:43 PM
I was playing on the testing server a few days ago.  The game started normally but kept improving.  I rustproofed my ring mail early on, and found a long sword.  I found a lot of food and a normal amount of gold.  Later I found a two-handed sword and got my strength up to 17.  But the best part was the HP increases.  By XL 10, I was up to 86.  I can't remember ever getting that high, even at XL 12.  I thought I had a good chance of at least meeting a Dragon.

Then on level 19, I blundered into a Medusa and a Venus flytrap on the same turn.  I had a wand of polymorph and managed to turn the Medusa into a Kestrel, but I couldn't get away from the Venus flytrap and I was too confused to hit it.

I hope I'm the only player who's ever had a 86-HP character pecked to death by a chirping Kestrel.

Later I discovered that Venus flytraps are not immune to polymorph and I should have tried zapping it again.

------

I guess there's enough interest in a tournament that I should do one.  It will work like the NetHack or DCSS tournaments - all games played in a two-week period are part of it.  Winners will be chosen by highest average score.

Quote from: Squeeealer
Are we watching each other play or is the format conducive to some sense of community?  I would love to be able to chat during runs on rlg.

I should be able to add chat functionality to the Web player without much trouble.

Quote from: Pertinax
Speaking of feature requests, it would be cool to be able to filter my past games based on score or max dungeon level reached, rather than just having an arbitrarily long table where a third of the entries are "killed by a hobgoblin on lvl 1."

That's another good idea that I should be able to implement quickly.

I've got a bug fix or two that are top priority right now.  After that I'll work on these suggestions, and then I can schedule a tournament.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Pertinax on November 27, 2015, 12:38:50 AM
I guess there's enough interest in a tournament that I should do one.  It will work like the NetHack or DCSS tournaments - all games played in a two-week period are part of it.  Winners will be chosen by highest average score.

Highest average score seems like it might create a disincentive to play: have a great first game on day one, then avoid playing any more games for two weeks so as not to bring down one's average.

Something like "best of n" or "best n of however many" might work better. The latter would create an incentive to play more as there would always be hope that the next game could be The One, but it would favor people who have more free time during the tournament period.

I haven't spent much time looking at the details of the NetHack or DCSS tournaments, but it looks like they both address these issues by rewarding multiple achievements:

NetHack (https://nethackwiki.com/wiki//dev/null/nethack_tournament#Trophies)
DCSS (http://dobrazupa.org/tournament/0.17)

Edited to add:

I hope I'm the only player who's ever had a 86-HP character pecked to death by a chirping Kestrel.

That is brutal (and hilarious).
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Ancient on November 27, 2015, 12:49:45 AM
Agreed that average score over all games kinda sucks enjoyment. I am sure you will find something better.

In my best game I found a two-handed sword on second floor and a scale mail not much later. Got nailed down when I met sleeping Ice Monster in a wide tunnel and typed too fast. It retaliated of course and that was it.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on November 27, 2015, 04:02:31 PM
I can see that average score might be a bad criterion.  But I also don't want to reward whoever has the most time to spend playing.  So I came up with a plan.

There will be one scoreboard for average score, but you will need to play ten games to get on it.  That should even out the luck factor.  Then there will be another board with the best 20 games, where you can fight for the top places.

However, the real Winner of the Tournament will be the person who recovers the Amulet of Yendor.  If more than one player accomplishes this feat, they will share the title and the glory.  Anyone who finds the Amulet but doesn't win gets an honorable mention.  Maybe there can be little icons for making it to level 15, XL 9, etc.

If none of us can even find the thing, then we are all 100% failures, nobody wins the tournament, and we have to try again in six months.

How does that sound?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on November 27, 2015, 04:16:35 PM
Sounds good to me.  I just want to do it to do something with other people who love Rogue - being the winner is pretty secondary.

Pertinax - I saw your game the other day where you got 10th place on the list.  What an awesome run.  For those that didn't see it, he had some incredible luck with two wands of polymorph, two (identified) scrolls of scare monster, potion of haste, scroll of teleportation, waterproofing, etc.  I think the only thing you didn't find was wand of slow monster.

But you also had some really bad luck.  You deserved a much higher gold count.  There just weren't many Leprechauns... and a ton of Nymphs I might add.  Also when you decided to use your wand of polymorph... that was insanely bad luck.  The Wraith went from Dragon, to Wraith, to Black Unicorn, until finally something manageable if I recall.  Great run - too bad it wasn't reflected in the gold count.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on November 29, 2015, 09:38:00 PM
DANG!!!!!  I got to Floor 24, but couldn't find the Amulet.  I had to take the stairs to avoid a dragon.  On Floor 25 still couldn't find it and died.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Legend on November 30, 2015, 06:16:13 AM
Is there a way to use/activate the extended ascii mode and color used in the 3.6.2 version of rogue in rogue v5.4? Other than that what are the major differences between those version?

Anyone playing with the Donnie Russel port? https://sites.google.com/site/donnierussellii/rogue (https://sites.google.com/site/donnierussellii/rogue)
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on December 02, 2015, 12:59:37 AM
Sorry Squeeealer, there's no Amulet on floor 24.  You have to keep going another two levels.  That's still an impressive run.

@Legend: I didn't know about the color version of 3.6.2.  I'll have to take a closer look.  I don't know of any similar mode added to 5.4.  Version 5.4 has some improvements to the UI, and it's been rebalanced, with a few added items and renamed monsters.  I think it ended up being slightly harder.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on December 02, 2015, 04:51:37 PM
Oh, okay.  26, not 24.  I don't think it would have made a difference because on Floor 25 I landed right next to whatever it was that killed me.

I finally got to spend some good time with the ring of stealth today.  It's great when you get to the Trolls... and the Black Unicorns I bet!  Unfortunately, I met up with a spawned Troll in a maze.  Even more unfortunately, I tried to get away with just using a scroll of monster confusion on him.  After confusing him I missed like four times in a row and with 20 HP left he took me down with one blow despite a 9 armor.  Then again, I never seem to understand if armor class determines ability to dodge an attack or affects how much damage you take on a hit.  My strategy would have been to back up and hammer him with projectiles, but I had none.  I left a wand of polymorph, a wand of slow monster, and a scroll of scare monster on the table.  My main problem was my cursed -2 long sword.  After two enchantments it was simply a 0,0 long sword when I died.  Still, I think the pieces were in place for me to take it to the Medusas or beyond and I failed.

Oh, and 3-4 treasure rooms in the first 12 floors helped.  I found and identified three rings of protection, a ring of dexterity, a ring of stealth, a ring of see invisible, a ring of searching, a ring of increase damage, a wand of polymorph, a wand of magic missile, a wand of drain life, and a wand of slow monster.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on December 04, 2015, 03:42:16 AM
DANG!  Made it to 24 again, but poor gold count.  I had two unidentified scrolls and dropped them as a Black Unicorn chased me, but neither were a scroll of scare monster.  Had I read them one might have been a scroll of hold monster. Oh wait, I bet one was scroll of monster confusion!  DANG DANG!  I then defeated the Black Unicorn anyway, but another one was right behind... I was really low on resources, but it would have been cool to actually see the Amulet.  I also had the misfortune in this run of clearing a treasure room only to step on a trapdoor before collecting the loot.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on December 04, 2015, 04:16:43 AM
Thanks for the lesson, Pertinax. I just watched you get back on a scroll of scare monster. For some reason I thought I'd tried it and it didn't work so I assumed it wasn't in this version.  Now I know. I also learned (from the help menu) that I could have picked the scrolls back up that I'd dropped as I stood on them... although I bet it would have cost me a turn.

Pertinax - how do you stand still and gain HP in giant chunks?  Are you just holding down the rest button?

When is "/" (identify object) useful?  Can you stand next to a Xeroc and identify it before it attacks you?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Pertinax on December 04, 2015, 05:09:04 AM
How does that sound?

Sounds good.

Pertinax - how do you stand still and gain HP in giant chunks?  Are you just holding down the rest button?

I'm typing a number prior to hitting period, which causes one to rest for that number of turns, or until something happens. I use a similar command (e.g., 10s) to search a particular number of times rather than having to hit s repeatedly.

When is "/" (identify object) useful?  Can you stand next to a Xeroc and identify it before it attacks you?

It's just a form of help intended to tell you what an ASCII character means in case you don't know or have forgotten.  I think that it will tell you that X is a Xeroc and that % is a staircase, but not that the particular % that you're looking at is really a Xeroc.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on December 04, 2015, 01:50:10 PM
Pertinax - how do you stand still and gain HP in giant chunks?  Are you just holding down the rest button?

I'm typing a number prior to hitting period, which causes one to rest for that number of turns, or until something happens. I use a similar command (e.g., 10s) to search a particular number of times rather than having to hit s repeatedly.
[/quote]

Holy crap - this is huge for me.  The key is this part, "or until something happens."  So many times I am repeatedly searching or resting and hit the button one too many times and get hit.  It's particularly a problem when it's a Rattlesnake, Aquator, or an enemy who you need every bit of HP for.  Thank you for all the help!
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on December 08, 2015, 09:39:21 PM
Well, I made it to 24 again with a stupid flippin unenchanted mace (found no weapon enhancements the entire run).  I had some good wands, but I just got inundated with powerful monsters on 24 as I was searching for the stairs.  Two Jabberwocks, two Medusas, and a Griffin.  A stupid Phantom polished me off.  And man those Wraiths can change the course of a run.  I did at least beat some Trolls, my first Jabberwock, a Griffin or two, and a Medusa or two for some nice exp gains.  Poor gold count.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Pertinax on December 09, 2015, 07:15:27 AM
Well, I made it to 24 again

You've had some nice runs recently. Grats on those.

I've been in a bit of a slump. The top two annoying things that I've been experiencing recently are (1) having 20 hp at level 5, and (2) swinging at a level-appropriate monster literally a dozen times and missing every time. Going to keep plugging away at it...
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on December 09, 2015, 02:43:45 PM
My last run last night I got a two handed sword early with THREE enchantments!  Woohoo, right?  The problem was that Rattlesnakes bit the hell out of me and I was down to 5 STR in no time.  Almost impossible to get out of that without a potion of restore STR.

I am noticing that one common factor in my successful runs is my ability to maintain and increase STR for the damage bonuses or whatever it is STR does.  I assume that's the only way I was able to get 24 with an unenchanted mace while still beating some tough enemies (I think I was at 20 STR).  Because of this, I've started quaffing all potions on the first three floors as soon as I get them.  Getting blinded isn't that big a deal that early (unless you run into an Ice Monster) and hallucinating is even less of a problem.  The sooner I identify my gain STR potion then the sooner I can quaff them when I find them and boost my STR to get those bonuses.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on December 11, 2015, 04:32:59 AM
I still just do not understand how this game functions and it affects my ability to play skillfully.  I identified two potions of increase skill, or whatever the hell they are called.  I waited until I leveled up to 8 and then quaffed them both putting me at level 10 (and just 55 HP).  This seemed to have absolutely zero impact on my ability to hit enemies.  I missed time and again and again. It really cost me against Trolls.  I had a two handed sword, but no enchantments.  I really got unlucky in the way I died - found a Black Unicorn, backed away and right into another Black Unicorn.  They were both awarded a turn and I was dead despite charges left in my wand of polymorph and my wand of slow monster.

What affects your ability to hit your enemy other than your enemy's attributes?  Can you increase your ability to hit your enemy?  Does it occur at level ups or with equipment or what?  What exactly does STR affect?

I also did not find a potion of restore strength the entire run and I believe that it cost me in the end.  I had two potions of increase STR just waiting to be quaffed when I died.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Pertinax on December 11, 2015, 07:39:13 AM
What affects your ability to hit your enemy other than your enemy's attributes?  Can you increase your ability to hit your enemy?  Does it occur at level ups or with equipment or what?  What exactly does STR affect?

Your chance to hit is based on your level, the monster's armor class, your strength, the "to hit" bonus on your weapon, any rings of dexterity that you might be wearing, and whether the creature is asleep or held (you get a +20% bonus in this case).

The Rogue's Vade-Mecum (http://userpages.monmouth.com/~colonel/rvm.html) (Latin for "walk with me", i.e., a walkthrough) says "When you attack a monster, your chance of hitting it is 5%, plus 5% times your experience level, plus 5% times the monster's armor class." So your two raise level potions ought to have added 10% to your hit chance. According to the vade-mecum, a troll's AC is 4, so, based on what you said (lvl 8 before drinking the potions, lvl 10 afterwards, no weapon enchantments), you should have gone from a 65% chance to hit the troll to a 75% chance after quaffing the potions. However, your hit chance might have been significantly decreased if your strength was low.

After having written the first draft of this post, I wasn't sure about the exact effect that strength had, so I took a look at the 5.4.4 source code and found the following in fight.c:

Code: [Select]
/*
 * adjustments to hit probabilities due to strength
 */
static int str_plus[] = {
    -7, -6, -5, -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1,
    1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3,
};

/*
 * adjustments to damage done due to strength
 */
static int add_dam[] = {
    -7, -6, -5, -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 2, 3,
    3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6
};

If you don't read C, these are arrays of hit and dmg bonuses that are indexed using the character's strength (ranging from 0 to 31). Meaning that the first number in each list corresponds to str 0, the second number to str 1, and so on. As you can see, you take hit and dmg penalties if your str is 6 or below, and you get a hit bonus if it's 17 or higher and a dmg bonus if it's 16 or higher. The slightly good news is that there's code in another file that enforces a lower bound of strength 3, so the worst penalties from those arrays seem not to actually be in play.

Looking at the code that computes hits, it generates a virtual 20-sided die (d20) roll, modifies it based on the various factors that I mentioned above, and then determines if it was a hit. Since 1/20 = 5%, this is where the percentages in the formula in the vade-mecum come from. Each point of weapon and strength bonus/penalty adjusts the d20 roll, which means that it actually corresponds to a 5% increase or decrease in hit chance. So, e.g., the -4 for str 3 is actually -20%, a significant penalty. On the positive side, I think that your earlier post where you said

I am noticing that one common factor in my successful runs is my ability to maintain and increase STR for the damage bonuses or whatever it is STR does.

was right on the money. It also means that weapon enchantments are a pretty big deal.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on December 11, 2015, 08:18:20 PM
I was just frustrated because when I find or do certain things I have expectations that things should go a certain way.  But it's stupid of me to have those expectations without completely understanding.  I'm not very smart, so I just like things easy.

Thank you for your post, Pertinax.  It helps me to understand the game better and appropriately adjust my pie in the sky expectations.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on December 15, 2015, 07:45:39 PM
Sorry Squeeealer, there's no Amulet on floor 24.  You have to keep going another two levels.  That's still an impressive run.

@Legend: I didn't know about the color version of 3.6.2.  I'll have to take a closer look.  I don't know of any similar mode added to 5.4.  Version 5.4 has some improvements to the UI, and it's been rebalanced, with a few added items and renamed monsters.  I think it ended up being slightly harder.

@elwin - site's down
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Pertinax on December 15, 2015, 10:38:02 PM
@elwin - site's down

Looks like just the web service, as I'm able to login via ssh without a problem.

Does your hosting service allow you to configure the server so that the web service will start automatically on boot?

If so, here are some starting points for Linux (https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-configure-a-linux-service-to-start-automatically-after-a-crash-or-reboot-part-1-practical-examples) and OS X (https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/BPSystemStartup/Chapters/CreatingLaunchdJobs.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/10000172i-SW7-BCIEDDBJ).

Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on December 16, 2015, 12:28:36 AM
The player is up again.  Sorry about that.  Writing a systemd unit file is now several steps higher up my to-do list.

@Squeeealer: I think you're expecting things like swords and high strength to help more than they really do.  The luck of what kind of monsters you run into still has more effect on your fate.

EDIT: Apologies for the latest crash.  The server found a new and creative way to break, by filling up the entire disk with 7 GB of log files.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on December 18, 2015, 02:30:16 PM
I was playing a game yesterday when the player went down again.  The player is back up, but when I try to resume my game it says, sorry, your game is out of date.  Then it does not let me play V5 at all.  I even played a game of V3 to see if that would reset V5, but that did not work.  Any ideas?  I did try it on more than one computer.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on December 18, 2015, 05:33:58 PM
Since the disk was full, rogue wasn't able to put any data in your savefile.  I've fixed it so you should be able to start a new game, but the one you were playing can't be recovered.  If the game had previously been saved and restored, there might have been a copy in backup, but I've looked and there isn't.

Sorry about that.  I should have known this could happen.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on December 19, 2015, 11:40:21 AM
Thank you!
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on January 12, 2016, 01:58:55 PM
Another "so close" run last night.

Started off on the right foot with a treasure room on the first floor packed wall-to-wall with enemies. Somehow I beat them all including surviving being frozen once by an Ice Monster.

Once again, I never improved from my mace.  Eventually, I did find about four enhancements. As far as armor, I never found waterproofing nor Leather Armor. At one point I had Chain Armor, but for the majority of the run I had a 1 for armor. I found one ring the entire run and it was a ring of slow digestion. But considering my stock of food I didn't really need it.

I had good luck keeping my STR high. I found two potions of gain strength early. Later in the run I was able to restore strength and then add one more point of STR. I only found two wands/staves, but I was able to identify them immediately. The first was a wand of teleport away, and that came in very handy. Late in the run I found a wand of polymorph with mixed results. At one point I used it on a Griffin, and it turned into another Griffin. Then it turned into a Black Unicorn. Later on I turned a Medusa into a Jabberwock, but since the Jabberwock was stationary I was able to chuck stuff at him to lower his health. My two potions of haste self and my three scrolls of monster confusion each helped me to defeat a difficult enemy and I never had to escape two enemies at once.

The run took a turn for the worse when, despite 19 STR and an enhanced mace, a Wraith knocked me down from exp lvl 10 to 8. But soon thereafter I used my one scroll of scare monster and kept going back to it as I explored the floor for easy victories against tough enemies.  It wasn't long before I was at exp lvl 11. In all, I defeated quite a few tough enemies including about five Medusas and Griffins and my first Jabberwock. I think I've beaten every enemy now except a Dragon, and I think I've only seen one of those (outside of polymorph).

My gold count should have been way better. The Leprechauns I defeated dropped tiny amounts, but the two that robbed me took about 600-700. But that level 25 to a Jabberwock looks good on the leaderboard.

Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on January 16, 2016, 09:37:32 PM
Well, we've got a killed w/ Amulet on the leaderboard now.  8)   I didn't realize the Amulet was a comma - I almost overlooked it.

I made a huge mistake around 17-18.  I did not test out my unidentified wands on Aquators and died with two unidentified in my inventory. I'd already identified a wand of slow monster and later figured out I had a wand of teleport away.  But if one of those was a polymorph, I might have had a chance.

I lived through my other big mistake.  I got confused by a Medusa, so I decided I should drop my scroll of scare monster, rest until no longer confused, then beat her up. I dropped the scroll, then go so excited to hit her that I moved before resting OOPS.  In desperation, I read my unidentified scrolls because I was certain one of them was a scroll of teleportation. First one was no help.  Second one was scroll of monster hold.  Bingo.

Also, beat my first two Dragons. One popped up right next to me and I was able to use scroll of slow monster. He did try to roast me once, but it whizzed on by.  The second one I found in a long room and I had a ring of stealth on.  I was just able to shoot arrows at him until he was dead.  Both kills resulted in an experience level boost.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on January 16, 2016, 10:50:54 PM
(http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr359/Squeeealer/Amulet%20of%20Yendor_zps6pdamgal.png) (http://s499.photobucket.com/user/Squeeealer/media/Amulet%20of%20Yendor_zps6pdamgal.png.html)
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: jim on January 18, 2016, 06:15:38 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/HXBsQPJSt9iWA/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on January 19, 2016, 01:39:43 AM
Well done!  First death with Amulet in the V5 dungeon.  You did it with surprisingly low max HP: 73 would be normal for that level.  And you recovered well from those mistakes.

I was thinking of playing some more this week, but you've used up all the two-handed swords, getting three in one game.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on January 19, 2016, 03:56:43 PM
How can you see my run?  You're right, I had three two-handed swords in like the first ten floors.

I see it now.  TTYREC.  Which player do you recommend for the computer illiterate?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Pertinax on January 20, 2016, 12:10:49 AM
Well, we've got a killed w/ Amulet on the leaderboard now.  8)

Awesome job! Congrats! Now we need to get that sucker to the surface.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on March 02, 2016, 03:42:10 PM
Quaggas coming back!   ???

http://secondnexus.com/ecology-and-sustainability/extinct-zebra-back-from-dead/?utm_content=inf_10_1164_2&tse_id=INF_c2d9a8d2ec5e479c8e9d2b9b2a1940c0
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Pertinax on March 08, 2016, 06:46:35 AM
Quaggas coming back!   ???

http://secondnexus.com/ecology-and-sustainability/extinct-zebra-back-from-dead/?utm_content=inf_10_1164_2&tse_id=INF_c2d9a8d2ec5e479c8e9d2b9b2a1940c0

Wow. That's crazy. Let's hope that they don't bring trolls back next.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: forumaccount on March 17, 2016, 05:16:41 AM
Interested in opening a time capsule?

Here are Brian Walker's, the creator and "B" part of of Brogue, thoughts on Rogue circa 2009.

Lessons from the original Rogue (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.development/browse_thread/thread/c4420207be6cea21)
(found on http://brogue.wikia.com/wiki/History_of_Brogue)

This may help the OP with attempts to beat Rogue, or at least give you interesting context for the design decisions that made Brogue so very Rogue-like.

I'd really really like to play an updated UI/controls version of Rogue, basically the Brogue engine running Rogue would be perfect.

This is a really cool idea. Especially if the autoexplore button is part of the plan. Was anyone able to pitch this idea to Lord Brogueish?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on April 12, 2016, 07:41:04 PM
Well, I got the new high score, but a very disappointing run after I realized what I had in inventory.

At one point I had a staff of slow monster with six charges, three staves of polymorph (although most of them with few charges), and a scroll of monster confusion.  When it's going that good, you have hopes of the Amulet.

Pros
Pretty high STR - ended with 20 I think
Very rarely lost any STR and had many potions of restore strength
Food was plentiful
Seemed to get lots of drops from enemies
Staff of Light
Cleared about three treasure rooms
Found waterproofing early + 3 armor enchantments

Cons
Never improved from mace, but did find 2-3 enchantments
Average HP increase a measly 4.2.  Was at 59 HP despite Level 12.
No potions of raise level
No rings other than a ring of dexterity +2
After realizing a scroll in a treasure room was a scroll of scare monster, I stupidly read it.  WTF
Ran out of arrows really early and only found more projectiles late
Got dinged once by a Wraith and it made a noticeable difference

On Floors 24 and 25 started going through my charges like crazy.  On Floor 25 by the time I'd defeat one enemy another had spawned and I was getting no breaks.  Medusae, Black Unicorns, Griffins, and even a Dragon.  Never did find the stairs.

I swear there is some underlying attribute(s).  Despite my poor weaponry and only slightly above normal STR at the time, I was beating Trolls quite easily. Things really seemed to change for the worse when that Wraith knocked me down a notch, even though you essentially gain it right back.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on April 16, 2016, 02:29:12 PM
I agree, a great and disappointing run.  The game looked winnable, up until that time you leveled up and only got 1 HP increase.  That changed it from manageably low to disastrous.  On level 14 and 15, you were killing everything, but with the Wraith and the Vampire, the balance shifted faster than usual.

I am beginning to think max HP is a much bigger factor than weapons or armor.

Toward the end, you started using up charges rapidly.  I don't have much experience with Griffins, but did you need to zap all of them?  One more charge might have gotten you a little farther.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on April 17, 2016, 05:36:39 AM
Perhaps I am overreacting, but in my little experience, almost all enemies that late (in the 20s) require some sort of special attention (wands, scrolls, etc.). Griffins are super dangerous in the same way as are Jabberwocks and Black Unicorns because of their agility and attack multipliers (if I understand correctly). Medusae are certainly beatable in hand-to-hand combat, but mostly when you are not confused.

elwin - I was playing at the same time as you today. Did you see me get snookered by a room full of nasties about Floor 22? Black Unicorns, a Medusa, and a Dragon. On my final move I used a potion of monster detection and sure enuff, there was a treasure room adjacent to where I was. Trapped. I burned three scrolls of monster hold, to no avail. Totally blocked by an avalanche of these high-level enemies.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on April 17, 2016, 01:13:45 PM
I missed your demise (I was busy getting killed by Quaggas, despite my two-handed sword.)  Looked at the ttyrec... that was painful.  There's not much you can do if you find a treasure room before finding the stairs.

About deep-level monsters, I did some math.  Here is a table of their average damage per hit:

Griffin: 17
Jabberwock: 18
Medusa: 21
Troll: 16
Unicorn: 20

(This assumes you have no armor.  Any armor will give some protection from Trolls, but you need +3 plate mail to have any effect on Jabberwocks.)

The important difference is that Griffins and Jabberwocks have over twice as many hit points as Trolls.  Still, 7 hits with a two-handed sword should demolish the average Jabberwock, and 6 should suffice for the average Griffin.

Getting in that many hits before getting killed requires you to start with over 100 hit points.  So a direct attack is likely to fail.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on April 17, 2016, 06:33:27 PM
STUFF I'M JUST NOW LEARNING OR CURRENT STRATEGIES FOR ITEM USE

I am just now understanding the actions of putting on/taking off armor and rings. Armor seems to take forever - like two turns to take off and two turns to put on or something. Ah, wait. I bet it's just one turn, but it seems like two when you're facing off with a faster Aquator.

Rings, on the other hand (no pun intended), seem to take zero turns. Previously, I had been pretty much ignoring my rings of sustain strength or sustain armor unless I had truckloads of food. I didn't realize that once I came face to face with a Rattlesnake or Aquator I could simply slip on the ring with no turn taken, finish the fight, then take the ring right back off.

Item use:

Wands and Staves

Lightning/Fire/Cold/Missile - I'm not sure I have ever had a good experience with any of these. They seem to miss, you can't use them in close quarters, and I just plain have better luck with a bow and arrow or other projectiles. Maybe I'm doing something wrong like not using them at the right distance or vs the right enemies?

Haste Monster and Teleport To - almost no idea unless these are just supposed to be evil tricks on us. Maybe if you have two enemies chasing you, one is an Aquator and you have waterproofing, so you want the Aquator right next to you acting as a virtual roadblock to the other enemies coming from that direction.

Invisibility - this must just be another evil trick on us unless using it on a Medusa prevents them from confusing us. Almost all strategies I've seen for Medusae are nearly worthless unless you are in a lit room.

Drain Life - I will actually use this sometimes now. If I can recover HP quickly due to ring of regeneration or simply a higher experience level, I'll use this to kill Leprechauns or Nymphs when I'm low on projectiles or they are in close quarters. When else is a good time to use this?

Cancellation - I've also been using this on Leprechauns and Nymphs in specific situations. I would really prefer to use vs Wraiths since one bad battle against them can ruin a run. Not really interested in using vs Rattlesnakes or Aquators, and have never had a good opportunity to use vs Medusae.

Polymorph - everyone know when to use this, but sometimes it's fun to use really early in a large lit room to see if you get an enemy you can beat with arrows at a distance.

Rings

Rings of Add STR, Dexterity, Protection, Increase Damage - I almost never use these. I don't want the drain on my appetite. Maybe I use one when I have a Ring of Slow Digestion to go with it. I always tell myself I'll slip one on when I run into a tough enemy, but then I get scared it will count as a turn.

Searching - I never use this. Do you guys?

Stealth - only started using this after that guy talked about it earlier in this thread. I usually don't have a bunch of extra food, so I am constantly taking it on an off as I cross room thresholds and make sure rooms are clear.

Regeneration - again, my concern is my appetite. So I just put it on when I need to recover or am about to have a tough fight. Otherwise, not wearing it.

Scrolls

Monster Confusion - works best in hallways. Best to just go ahead and use at the beginning of battle instead of waiting to see how the first few attacks go. What I don't understand is how it's decided when an enemy recovers from being confused. Sometimes it seems to happen pretty quickly and sometimes they seem to stay confused for quite a while. Or maybe it's 18 turns just when we get confused?

Remove Curse - I love having an identified one of these. Then I can feel free to test out all my equipment - especially rings since you've got two hands to use!

Aggravate Monsters - I've never really found a good use for this. I understand like when you've dropped a Scroll of Scare Monster or you are in a large lit room and want to beat up enemies from a distance, but winding or blocked hallways often prevent it from working out the way I want it to.

Create Monster - I usually use this when I've cleared a floor and am on the stairs. If it's something I don't like I just go downstairs. If it's something I do like I get experience or maybe even a Leprechaun. By far the most awesome use of this was when a super tough enemy was around a corner from me, in desperation I used a scroll hoping it would teleport me, and instead it created a stationary monster blocking the one I was scared of an letting me get away.

Potions

Magic/Monster Detection - I try to use this about two rooms into a new floor.  That way a monster might have already spawned and I can see where and who all the enemies are. I especially love when it turns out there is a treasure room on that floor so I can prepare or avoid accordingly.

Blindness - recently I quaffed one of these and since I had another I went ahead and quaffed it to get it out of inventory. I think it made me blind for twice as long - not what I was expecting.

Confusion - can you throw this at an enemy to confuse them in V5?

---

Projectiles - what does it mean when a projectile has a negative value to it? Less damage? Less likely to hit?

Any strategies you guys like to use in item usage?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on April 22, 2016, 12:51:10 PM
Got another spot on the leaderboard, but it was so cheap.  I just faced a lot of Leprechauns. I identified a wand of cancellation early and burned all the charges on Leprechauns.  It was fitting that I was killed running from a Wraith as I had no charges left to use on him.

Also for the first time had to commit suicide.  Found a floor with no stairs.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on April 22, 2016, 01:16:34 PM
I never knew putting on and taking off rings doesn't use a turn.  I have used the ring of searching a few times.

I agree that some items are almost useless.  I think their purpose is to make it risky to use unidentified items in tense situations.

Throwing potions at monsters has no effect in V5.  That feature was added to PC Rogue.

One strategy I use is avoiding reading unidentified scrolls if they might be scrolls of identify for a category I don't have.  I hate wasting them that way.

Quote from: Squeeealer
Also for the first time had to commit suicide.  Found a floor with no stairs.

That's a bug that needs investigation.  Which game was it?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on April 23, 2016, 04:38:44 AM
I never knew putting on and taking off rings doesn't use a turn.  I have used the ring of searching a few times.

I agree that some items are almost useless.  I think their purpose is to make it risky to use unidentified items in tense situations.

Throwing potions at monsters has no effect in V5.  That feature was added to PC Rogue.

One strategy I use is avoiding reading unidentified scrolls if they might be scrolls of identify for a category I don't have.  I hate wasting them that way.

Quote from: Squeeealer
Also for the first time had to commit suicide.  Found a floor with no stairs.

That's a bug that needs investigation.  Which game was it?

Looks like the site is down right now, but I believe it was a run that ended on Floor 7.  Just happened within the past three days, I'd say.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on April 23, 2016, 05:20:26 PM
Sorry about the Web app downtime.  I'm going to have to fix it again, properly this time.

I found your ttyrec.  There was a room in the lower right corner, six spaces wide and five spaces high.  You kept going down the right-hand side, across the bottom, up the left-hand wall, and back across the top.  Going across the top and bottom of a room five spaces high will miss the middle row.  When you went along the right wall, you saw the right two spaces of that row.  Sometimes you walked down the column next to the wall, and saw the right three spaces.  When you went up the left wall, you saw the left two spaces.  But you never explored the third space from the left in that middle row.  You walked around it four or five times, but you never saw it.  Without a savefile, I can't be certain, but I suspect that's where the stairs were.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on April 23, 2016, 09:04:01 PM
Sorry about the Web app downtime.  I'm going to have to fix it again, properly this time.

I found your ttyrec.  There was a room in the lower right corner, six spaces wide and five spaces high.  You kept going down the right-hand side, across the bottom, up the left-hand wall, and back across the top.  Going across the top and bottom of a room five spaces high will miss the middle row.  When you went along the right wall, you saw the right two spaces of that row.  Sometimes you walked down the column next to the wall, and saw the right three spaces.  When you went up the left wall, you saw the left two spaces.  But you never explored the third space from the left in that middle row.  You walked around it four or five times, but you never saw it.  Without a savefile, I can't be certain, but I suspect that's where the stairs were.

That seems far more likely than my explanation.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on May 02, 2016, 07:00:54 PM
So I got to test using a ring of sustain strength. Once I was face-to-face with a Rattlesnake I could slip it on. It took a turn, but it let me go first. So I might take a hit, but at least it didn't sap my strength.

If I recall correctly, it's similar with the ring of sustain armor. I could slip it on before the Aquator got its licks in.

Of course the danger is still running into one in a dark room unless you have so much food you can just leave it equipped.

In other news I found another treasure maze. These sure are rare.

Also I now believe that it is possible for some enemies to drop TWO items. I wasn't sure the first time because I figured maybe he was standing on one and/or it was a dark room and I just didn't see the other treasure at first. But this last time it occurred in a hallway.  But I've been wrong before.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on May 03, 2016, 12:31:04 AM
I have some very bad news for anyone hoping to beat Rogue.  I fixed venus Flytraps (aka violet Fungi).

They were designed to have their damage increase a point with every hit.  And you are hurt every turn you are stuck to one, whether it hits or misses you that turn.  You may have wondered why there was a monster that did zero or one damage on every hit, but sometimes a lot more when it missed.  That was a bug.  It is now squashed.  Flytraps are no longer annoyances worth 100 XP.  They are once again a menace that can destroy almost any character in eight to twelve turns.

I almost regret finding this bug.

Quote
Also I now believe that it is possible for some enemies to drop TWO items.

That is definitely possible.  A monster can only be generated with one item, but there's no limit to what it can pick up.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on May 03, 2016, 01:29:44 AM
I have some very bad news for anyone hoping to beat Rogue.  I fixed venus Flytraps (aka violet Fungi).

They were designed to have their damage increase a point with every hit.  And you are hurt every turn you are stuck to one, whether it hits or misses you that turn.  You may have wondered why there was a monster that did zero or one damage on every hit, but sometimes a lot more when it missed.  That was a bug.  It is now squashed.  Flytraps are no longer annoyances worth 100 XP.  They are once again a menace that can destroy almost any character in eight to twelve turns.

I almost regret finding this bug.

Quote
Also I now believe that it is possible for some enemies to drop TWO items.

That is definitely possible.  A monster can only be generated with one item, but there's no limit to what it can pick up.

First, screw you for fixing that  ;D

Second... monsters can pick up treasures?!
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on May 06, 2016, 02:47:25 PM
Ohhh man!!!!!!!!!  I was rockin' and rollin' until I ran right into another treasure room full of high level monsters.  I managed to teleport away, but landed right next to a Medusa who confused me. So I polymorphed her into a Flytrap. So then I was confused and held. I actually might have been able to survive all this with a decent stock of potions but I stupidly allowed myself to faint.  ARRRGH!

The best part of all was that I was killing it.  I had a two-handed sword with two enchantments plus a STR of 22 plus an XL of 11.  I was beating Trolls in two hits from the very first time I found them.  I even beat two Griffins in hand-to-hand combat. This was a rare run that had the potential for victory. DAMN.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on May 15, 2016, 05:47:09 PM
I just had my best run in terms of attack power. A two-handed sword with a couple enchantments plus a really high STR of like 23.  I was beating Trolls and even Black Unicorns without batting an eye. I beat two Medusae in hand-to-hand combat, but the third one caught me in an open room. This shouldn't normally be an issue as this late you should have some options available to you and I really only needed to hit her about three times. But in this run I found zero staves.  I had no way to teleport or to teleport her, no polymorph, no nothing.  All I could do was quaff two healing potions and attack.  I got two hits in on her, but died.  Really disappointed right now.  I was on such a roll that now I'm wondering if I forgot one of the rules of success - take the stairs after Floor 16 as soon as you find them.  But no staves, man that's tough.  I found so much treasure this run - hard to believe no staves.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on May 25, 2016, 03:11:44 PM
Wouldn't it be awesome if I had a scroll of Monster Hold?

(http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr359/Squeeealer/Rogue%20Treasure%20Room_zpsnc487fly.png) (http://s499.photobucket.com/user/Squeeealer/media/Rogue%20Treasure%20Room_zpsnc487fly.png.html)
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on June 03, 2016, 03:08:48 PM
The more I realize the ramifications of trapdoors the more I despise them.

It totally sucks to get one in the first 12 floors. You need to find every treasure you can get your hands on that early in the run. What's worse is that you might miss your rations and who knows when the next one will pop up.

Sometimes when I fall down multiple trapdoors I wish I could quit  :-\
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on June 30, 2016, 03:33:50 AM
I wish I could find a community that was still actively discussing this game.  Thank you elwin for your web-based Rogue.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on July 02, 2016, 02:31:22 PM
Sorry there's not more community discussion. Rogue is a niche game with a very small niche. Maybe we need somebody to promote it on social media.  ::)

I don't find that a single trapdoor fall has much effect. It's unlikely that the unexplored part of the level actually had anything good in it. Missing a food ration can hurt. But even falling through more than one trapdoor is often survivable.

What worries me is those rust traps.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Lord_Mork on July 03, 2016, 09:45:53 PM
I wish I could find a community that was still actively discussing this game.  Thank you elwin for your web-based Rogue.

Well, it is very old. Most people would probably prefer to play nethack or one of the *bands over Rogue. In other words, the roguelike formula has been improved and strengthened a lot over the years, so I'm not surprised that much of the discussion is no longer centered on the 36-year-old original.

That said, the social media idea in elwin's post as well as a fancy website somewhat like this one: http://www.thegreatestgameyouwilleverplay.com/ (http://www.thegreatestgameyouwilleverplay.com/) could help breathe life into the Rogue community. So much of modern-day video game attention is based purely on marketing and packaging or as it is called, 'hype'.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 04, 2016, 02:01:12 PM
I wish I could find a community that was still actively discussing this game.  Thank you elwin for your web-based Rogue.

Well, it is very old. Most people would probably prefer to play nethack or one of the *bands over Rogue. In other words, the roguelike formula has been improved and strengthened a lot over the years, so I'm not surprised that much of the discussion is no longer centered on the 36-year-old original.

That said, the social media idea in elwin's post as well as a fancy website somewhat like this one: http://www.thegreatestgameyouwilleverplay.com/ (http://www.thegreatestgameyouwilleverplay.com/) could help breathe life into the Rogue community. So much of modern-day video game attention is based purely on marketing and packaging or as it is called, 'hype'.

Does NetHack have a community? I was hoping to escape with the Amulet of Yendor before moving on to another roguelike, but maybe it's time...
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on July 07, 2016, 11:16:25 PM
I wasn't exactly serious about the social media idea, but I'll give it a try.  Sometime this month, I'll write a blog post about the things Rogue does better than its successors.  Then we can post links to it on social media.

Someone just grabbed the #3 spot in Super-Rogue.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on July 08, 2016, 04:23:11 PM
I had a series of good runs this weekend including my first ever meeting with and eventual death to a Medusa.  I honestly don't see a way to beat her without some sort of action that short-circuits her ability to confuse/freeze me.

Make her invisible and she will not be able to affect you. It also works for some other monster(s)... or so they say.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on July 08, 2016, 04:47:29 PM
Hmm, I've never heard of TileRogue before. It seems as though it should be functionally the same game as the original Rogue.

Amiga, Atari ST, and Mac Rogue all use tiles, and C64, Amstrad and Spectrum versions also. Actually it's only PC version that doesn't. Laziness? Inability? Go figure! In my opinion Mac rogue is by far the best version of the game.

Here, try it out:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/9yo369c422935kq/vMac-Rogue.zip

- hold windows (apple) key to identify what's under mouse pointer
- to throw something drag it on the map from the inventory window
- to zap a wand drag it on the map while holding shift
- use ctrl-f to switch to full screen or ctrl-m to double the window size


I actually just started working the other day on elwin's Rogue 5.4.5 to look and play like Mac version, except for inventory which will work more like Atari ST version. I believe these changes will make the game at least 100x more playable and attractive for new people to try out. -- I have no idea how to make it work through ssh, Elwin let me know if you have time to help make that possible.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 08, 2016, 07:52:42 PM
I had a series of good runs this weekend including my first ever meeting with and eventual death to a Medusa.  I honestly don't see a way to beat her without some sort of action that short-circuits her ability to confuse/freeze me.

Make her invisible and she will not be able to affect you. It also works for some other monster(s)... or so they say.

But my problem is that she confuses me before I even see her most of the time.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on July 08, 2016, 11:50:43 PM
But my problem is that she confuses me before I even see her most of the time.

One of the victors who wrote a Usenet post would wait in the doorway whenever entering a new room, letting the monsters come to him until he could be sure nothing awake was left there.  I've never had the patience to try this consistently.

I actually just started working the other day on elwin's Rogue 5.4.5 to look and play like Mac version, except for inventory which will work more like Atari ST version. I believe these changes will make the game at least 100x more playable and attractive for new people to try out. -- I have no idea how to make it work through ssh, Elwin let me know if you have time to help make that possible.


That sounds intriguing.  I don't have much time to help, but if you put your code online, send me a link.  Can you explain more about what you're trying to do?  It sounds like your main goal is adding a graphics layer.

Graphics don't work too well over SSH.  The easiest course these days would probably be to write a graphical program that communicates with the server over the Web.  I've always intended to make it possible for people to write their own clients or interfaces for the Gallery.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on July 09, 2016, 09:27:16 AM
I made a new thread to discuss it:
http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=5114.0
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 14, 2016, 07:41:15 PM
DANG - made it to 25 again.  This was a really weird run.  Perhaps my best with the least.

I quaffed a potion early and when I saw it was a potion of gain strength, I mostly did not quaff any more unless I knew what they were. Eventually I had identified most of the "good" potions, so any other potions I just dropped assuming they were bad.  I got a couple of gain strengths late, but for the most part had 18 STR.

I had a +2 mace and left it on even when I found a long sword.  Eventually I found a two handed sword, and equipped it.  It was cursed DOH! But I eventually found a curselifter and one enhancement, so I probably was working with a base sword the rest of the way.

I found or was dropped a ton of rings, but I only ever found out what one of them was.  Fortunately, it was a ring of regeneration.  In other words, only one scroll of identify ring, wand, etc.  Nymphs stole two of my rings before I could even try to figure out what they were. This was due to an ill-timed scroll of aggravate monster and finding quite a few treasure rooms.

Speaking of treasure rooms, none of them were particularly difficult, and in fact one of them was my second treasure maze ever. It was jam-packed with about 12 treasures.

My fighting style was to try to beat them as soon as I engaged them, but slip on my ring of regen first. Then hit & run. Beat a lot of Trolls like this. This was a burden on an already average food supply, so I never felt comfortable as far as food.

I found a few staves, but two were magic missile (lame) and the other two did not seem to be very helpful when I tested them out on Aquators. Still not exactly sure what they were, but they were definitely not the important ones.

I struggled the entire run with armor.  I never got waterproofing and didn't find leather armor until late.

I only needed to use a potion of restore strength once, and even had to start dropping them.  My scrolls of teleportation saved me each time I used them and my scrolls of magic mapping were extremely useful - even saving me late as it helped me find the stairs while a Black Unicorn was on my ass.

I did identify a scroll of monster hold and a scroll of scare monster kinda late.  The monster hold helped me beat a Black Unicorn.  The scare monster helped me beat a Medusa.  I beat a Jabberwock and a couple more Black Unicorns straight up.

My gold count was low, so I did not make the leaderboard.  I swear I ran into about three Leprechauns thanks again to the ill-timed aggravate monsters and all the treasure rooms.  In general, I found very few of them.  They didn't steal much, but didn't leave much either.

I got to experience level 11 for the first time since May 15.  That run I died on Floor 18 to a Medusa. I was very fortunate this run to only run into the one Medusa and to find stairs somewhat easily after Floor 16.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on July 14, 2016, 11:36:30 PM
I got to experience level 11 for the first time since May 15.  That run I died on Floor 18 to a Medusa. I was very fortunate this run to only run into the one Medusa and to find stairs somewhat easily after Floor 16.

Playing it for more than a year in a row, huh? Every week, every day? I like your passion, and I'd  like to hear from you what is it you like about the game, what do you not like, and what changes do you think would make it even better game.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 15, 2016, 02:05:26 PM
I got to experience level 11 for the first time since May 15.  That run I died on Floor 18 to a Medusa. I was very fortunate this run to only run into the one Medusa and to find stairs somewhat easily after Floor 16.

Playing it for more than a year in a row, huh? Every week, every day? I like your passion, and I'd  like to hear from you what is it you like about the game, what do you not like, and what changes do you think would make it even better game.

I got into the roguelike concept about 2001 playing the Ancient Cave sidequest on Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals for SNES.  It's a 99-floor cave with many of the aspects of a true roguelike - no save point, permanent death, randomly created floors and treasure distribution, etc.  I haven't stopped playing since.  I've logged a sickening number of hours in the Ancient Cave - probably years of my life.  :-\

Rogue caught my attention when I saw it was a game app on Roku 3 for just $1. I was already aware of Rogue and immediately bought it thinking I'd learn how to play the next time I got sick and had to stay home from work. A year later I still hadn't gotten sick so I dived right on in. It was very confusing and hard to learn how to play, but in searching for assistance on the web I found this forum and elwin's site.

Like a lot of roguelike players, I am captivated by the concept of random. I love the difficulty level and how whenever someone actually beats Rogue it is likely the biggest accomplishment in their gaming career.  I also have this ideal of maximizing every run I make, even if that run has no chance at victory. I rarely live up to this, but when I feel I have done the best I can do with the hand I was dealt, I find it satisfying despite technically being a loss.

I also like how fast you can play a game, especially in version 5, without taking away from the skill of the game. I regularly use the CTRL+direction to sprint until I run into something. I regularly fight until near death with F+direction, although I do not like that sometimes I actually die when doing this. And I've been getting better about using a number+action to save time and keystrokes. Conversely, the Ancient Cave is a huge undertaking with a successful challenge run taking anywhere from 8-13 hours. And now I cannot stand playing versions of Rogue without these shortcuts.

I hesitate to say what I do not like or what changes I would make because I know so many people have already identified and changed these things in creating their own roguelikes, and I know more intelligent answers would come out of brainstorming with other gamers. I also hate to make anything easier because then you've just cheapened the victory - yours would not match up to previous victors. So any improvements I can think of would likely be gameplay mechanics-related without altering the difficulty level. I'd have to think about what those might be.

My biggest disadvantage is just plain not understanding the mechanics of the game. I have never played D&D or anything similar. I have been to the vade-mecum and honestly do not understand how stuff works. As you can probably tell by now, I'm not particularly smart. What would be huge for me is if there was a visible statistic that gave me some indication at how good I am in that moment at hitting opponents. I know it's more complicated than that, but I often have no sense of my ability to hit opponents other than from "feel."
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 15, 2016, 05:39:18 PM
So after I wrote that response...

(http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr359/Squeeealer/Rogue%20-%20Sweet%20Victory_zpsq3j12gae.png) (http://s499.photobucket.com/user/Squeeealer/media/Rogue%20-%20Sweet%20Victory_zpsq3j12gae.png.html)

(http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr359/Squeeealer/Rogue%20-%20Sweet%20Victory2_zpsxidgalqy.png) (http://s499.photobucket.com/user/Squeeealer/media/Rogue%20-%20Sweet%20Victory2_zpsxidgalqy.png.html)
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 15, 2016, 05:49:50 PM
Two funny things - I was carrying around that vermillion potion waiting to identify it.  Obviously never used it.  Would have been nice.

Second - zapped a Medusa with that wand of polymorph and she hit me. I assumed that meant I was out.  I used my absolute last item of desperation (a scroll of teleportation) at that point not realizing I really did have two charges left.

That confrontation with that Medusa could have been the end for many reasons. As soon as I saw her I should have defeated her because I could have done so without becoming confused and I was killing her in like 2-3 hits. Instead I walked away, saw she was not moving, then re-engaged her and she immediately confused me. That's when the whole polymorph/teleportation confusion happened.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on July 15, 2016, 07:22:24 PM
Like a lot of roguelike players, I am captivated by the concept of random. I love the difficulty level and how whenever someone actually beats Rogue it is likely the biggest accomplishment in their gaming career.  I also have this ideal of maximizing every run I make, even if that run has no chance at victory. I rarely live up to this, but when I feel I have done the best I can do with the hand I was dealt, I find it satisfying despite technically being a loss.

Maximizing every run. That's interesting aspect of replayability. I haven't really thought of it like that before. It's a very good point, and I see now that's why hi-score table is important part of the game.

But, don't you think it's unfair, that something is wrong with the game balance, when you really don't have even a theoretical chance to beat the game without 2hand-sword? I think if there is no good weapons in the dungeon the game should compensate by providing more enchant weapon scrolls. I think that's what "game-balance" ultimately needs to provide, to decrease the impact of random factors and make separate runs have similar chance for victory.
 
By the way, have you ever tried enchanting arrows?


Quote
I also like how fast you can play a game, especially in version 5, without taking away from the skill of the game.

Then you will like Rogue+ with mouse support. I think with it the same game can be played in half the time than regular keyboard version even with its shortcuts. I'll upload new, now mostly complete, version later today.


Quote
I hesitate to say what I do not like or what changes I would make because I know so many people have already identified and changed these things in creating their own roguelikes, and I know more intelligent answers would come out of brainstorming with other gamers.

Having played it that much I think it is you who have the best perspective and can give the most valuable opinion about it. For example, don't you think the blindness effect takes too long? It's a good concept for a difficulty factor, but it's also annoying, and I think its long duration takes away from enjoyment, more than it contributes to the difficulty as a game mechanics.

By the way, have you noticed if the potion of haste actually works?


Quote
My biggest disadvantage is just plain not understanding the mechanics of the game. I have never played D&D or anything similar. I have been to the vade-mecum and honestly do not understand how stuff works.

The game is made opaque like that on purpose. You can see how vague potions/scrolls effects are. You really are not supposed to know how everything works, but rather get a feel for it. Learn bit by bit, and try to do better in every next run. Still, showing exactly how much HP monsters loose when you hit them is a good idea, and I don't think it would take away anything from the game.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on July 15, 2016, 07:28:33 PM
So after I wrote that response...

Congratulations! I've done it only once, and that was with save scumming. So now that you've beaten it, do you think you will still continue playing? I guess not as much as before, but if you are looking for more of the same challenge let me recommend Brogue to you.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 15, 2016, 08:56:03 PM
Quote
Like a lot of roguelike players, I am captivated by the concept of random. I love the difficulty level and how whenever someone actually beats Rogue it is likely the biggest accomplishment in their gaming career.  I also have this ideal of maximizing every run I make, even if that run has no chance at victory. I rarely live up to this, but when I feel I have done the best I can do with the hand I was dealt, I find it satisfying despite technically being a loss.

Quote
Maximizing every run. That's interesting aspect of replayability. I haven't really thought of it like that before. It's a very good point, and I see now that's why hi-score table is important part of the game.

But, don't you think it's unfair, that something is wrong with the game balance, when you really don't have even a theoretical chance to beat the game without 2hand-sword? I think if there is no good weapons in the dungeon the game should compensate by providing more enchant weapon scrolls. I think that's what "game-balance" ultimately needs to provide, to decrease the impact of random factors and make separate runs have similar chance for victory.
 
By the way, have you ever tried enchanting arrows?

Yes, the hi-score table is also important to me because it gives me a sense of community. I had the most fun when both Pertinax and I were playing regularly. Is it really that bad without a two handed sword? I've had at least a couple really good runs with a mace, but it did require a handful of enchantments. So I can see your point there.

But then again the unfair, unforgiving, and absolutely brutal nature of this game is what made it so satisfying to beat. As I realized I had a chance my hands were trembling and I actually felt emotional about finally defeating this game that has brutalized and abused me for over a year. Okay, that's a little melodramatic, but you get the idea.

No, I have never enchanted an arrow. I have accidentally enchanted a bow before, but I don't know that it did anything.

Quote
I also like how fast you can play a game, especially in version 5, without taking away from the skill of the game.

Quote
Then you will like Rogue+ with mouse support. I think with it the same game can be played in half the time than regular keyboard version even with its shortcuts. I'll upload new, now mostly complete, version later today.

I dunno - I can be pretty dang fast on a keyboard  8)


Quote
I hesitate to say what I do not like or what changes I would make because I know so many people have already identified and changed these things in creating their own roguelikes, and I know more intelligent answers would come out of brainstorming with other gamers.

Quote
Having played it that much I think it is you who have the best perspective and can give the most valuable opinion about it. For example, don't you think the blindness effect takes too long? It's a good concept for a difficulty factor, but it's also annoying, and I think its long duration takes away from enjoyment, more than it contributes to the difficulty as a game mechanics.

By the way, have you noticed if the potion of haste actually works?

The more I play the better I get with dealing with and avoiding blindness:

1. I start quaffing potions immediately until a) I find a potion of gain strength; b) I poison myself (thus losing STR and wasting a potion of gain strength should I find one); or, c) I get to about Floor 4. That early in the dungeon you can usually explore at will and have a decent chance of surviving even when blind.

2. From about Floor 4 I just let my inventory build up until Floor 7. Then I go through most of my scrolls seeing if I can identify some potions. If that fails, and I blind myself by randomly quaffing, there's a pretty good chance I have a potion of healing, extra healing, or see invisible to cure my blindness somewhere in my built up inventory. Of course, if I have any of those blindness cures already identified and in inventory then I feel far more free to test my unidentified potions.

3. Sometimes you can almost figure out what unidentified scrolls and potions are just by process of elimination. Or at least know if it's a bad bet.

4. If you start a level in a room with no access points, only one access point, or a maze, then at least you can usually wait out blindness depending on your ration supply. Then again, all that running around means lots of monster spawning.

In this run I just completed I almost screwed it up.  I had already identified quite a few potions and had 4-5 unidentified in inventory. I started quaffing and by the end was both blind and hallucinating. Fortunately, I was able to beat whatever unseen foes approached me. Some of them may have even been Trolls!

Yes, the potion of haste self works wonders. It just doesn't last very long. What I don't understand is when I use a scroll of monster confusion, confuse a monster, but then he is not at all confused and continues to chase me. I've seen this Trolls mostly.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on July 15, 2016, 09:50:47 PM
Yes, the potion of haste self works wonders. It just doesn't last very long. What I don't understand is when I use a scroll of monster confusion, confuse a monster, but then he is not at all confused and continues to chase me. I've seen this Trolls mostly.

How do you know it works? When I am myself hasted I see monsters moving one tile when I move one tile, and when I hit them, they hit me in the same turn. On the other hand, when monsters are hasted with the wand of haste they move two tiles when I move one, and they hit me two times in one turn.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on July 15, 2016, 10:10:09 PM
No, I have never enchanted an arrow.

But it's not an arrow, it's arrows, you enchant them all. I doubt it, but it might actually be worth it under some circumstance. In any case, making enchanted arrows a viable tactical option is kind of improvement I think the game would benefit from. Let me know if you think of something that would expand tactical/strategy aspect of the game, or would otherwise make it more interesting.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on July 15, 2016, 10:42:21 PM
Congratulations!  At last we have a total winner!

When you came down the stairs next to the Troll, had you identified the wand of slow monster, or were you just zapping desperately?

I noticed once you got to the 20+ levels, you used a wand on almost everything dangerous.  Maybe I conserve charges and items too much.  I'd probably have tackled that Dragon on the way up.  And I'd probably be dead.

Quote
I also hate to make anything easier because then you've just cheapened the victory - yours would not match up to previous victors. So any improvements I can think of would likely be gameplay mechanics-related without altering the difficulty level.

I agree with you there.  Especially now that we know it can be done.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 15, 2016, 10:49:53 PM
Yes, the potion of haste self works wonders. It just doesn't last very long. What I don't understand is when I use a scroll of monster confusion, confuse a monster, but then he is not at all confused and continues to chase me. I've seen this Trolls mostly.

How do you know it works? When I am myself hasted I see monsters moving one tile when I move one tile, and when I hit them, they hit me in the same turn. On the other hand, when monsters are hasted with the wand of haste they move two tiles when I move one, and they hit me two times in one turn.

I think something wrong must have happened to you. Let's say you are right next to a Troll.  It's your turn, so you quaff a potion of haste self. Here's the best part - you get the first and second move! Hit him, walk one space away. Hit him, walk one space away, etc. Definitely try it again and you'll see.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 15, 2016, 10:51:05 PM
No, I have never enchanted an arrow.

But it's not an arrow, it's arrows, you enchant them all. I doubt it, but it might actually be worth it under some circumstance. In any case, making enchanted arrows a viable tactical option is kind of improvement I think the game would benefit from. Let me know if you think of something that would expand tactical/strategy aspect of the game, or would otherwise make it more interesting.

Wow, really?! That would be interesting! The guy that ported Rogue to Roku 3 emailed me a trick for hacking the game, so maybe I could try that sometime. OK - I'll think on it and if I think of anything I'll let you know.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 15, 2016, 10:59:52 PM
Congratulations!  At last we have a total winner!

When you came down the stairs next to the Troll, had you identified the wand of slow monster, or were you just zapping desperately?

I noticed once you got to the 20+ levels, you used a wand on almost everything dangerous.  Maybe I conserve charges and items too much.  I'd probably have tackled that Dragon on the way up.  And I'd probably be dead.

Quote
I also hate to make anything easier because then you've just cheapened the victory - yours would not match up to previous victors. So any improvements I can think of would likely be gameplay mechanics-related without altering the difficulty level.

I agree with you there.  Especially now that we know it can be done.

Thank you, elwin! And thank you so much for your site. I've had a blast playing and it is FAR more enjoyable and playable on your site than on Roku. Also thank you for all the advice and resources you've provided me throughout this topic.

Absolutely. In fact, I've started using my best stuff earlier and earlier in runs. You couldn't really tell it this run, but my intention now is to use what I need to for survival and presume that in the near future I will get something else that will be at least as valuable. I feel like I have to have this mindset because if it is going to be a successful run you have to have luck. Yes, I knew it was a wand of slow monster because I had just tested it on an Aquator who started moving one space at a time instead of two. When I have waterproofing I test out my wands on Aquators.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 15, 2016, 11:35:53 PM
One of my favorite things to do after a successful run of the Ancient Cave in Lufia II is to consider what stuff I randomly DIDN'T find because it makes the victory seem even more impressive.

Here's what I recall, or think I recall. My brain was fried by the end:

- I don't think I found a ring the entire run
- I found a few daggers (?) early, but found no projectiles afterward except maybe a spear or two
- I did not find a scroll of hold monster and only had one scroll of monster confusion early
- I believe I only found one scroll of magic mapping
- I believe I found either zero or one of both healing and extra healing. This really worried me.

Other luck stuff - good and bad

- Slaughtered like seven Leprechauns, but they were particularly stingy. One dropped me three gold.
- My staff/wand luck was amazing. Two slow monster, two polymorph, and light. That's my perfect combo.
- At one point I had two unidentified scrolls and read them in the wrong order. I read the scroll of scare monster, and then a scroll of identify scroll. DOH!
- Late in the run I was having a little trouble finding the stairs and quaffed a potion of detect monsters. I saw there was a horrible treasure room and was so lucky the stairs were not in there. They were instead right next to a sleeping Jabberwock in a corner I almost did not investigate.
- Never had to worry about rations.
- My scale mail was +3 when I found it and then found four enchantments taking me to that +10. Not to mention the waterproofing!
- Skill or luck? I only once got sandwiched and it was early against two easy enemies. Not getting surrounded is so important.
- Again, the vermilion potion - I had a potion of raise level and never used it. So glad that didn't cost me.

Hey, just realized something. I saved my scroll of food detection for Floor 26 and I don't think it detected the Amulet. It did detect the food that was like two spaces away. Hmm.

What should I play next? Are any of the other Rogues on your site good?  They look a lot more complicated.

LazyCat - where do I play Brogue?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on July 15, 2016, 11:37:00 PM
I think something wrong must have happened to you.

Ah yes, I was drinking it too far in advance, and it expires very quickly in maybe 10 turns or so.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on July 16, 2016, 12:03:02 AM
Quote
I also hate to make anything easier because then you've just cheapened the victory - yours would not match up to previous victors. So any improvements I can think of would likely be gameplay mechanics-related without altering the difficulty level
I agree with you there.  Especially now that we know it can be done.

Let's say the whole dungeon is generated at the beginning and the game knows in advance all the items that will be in there. So now we have dungeon A where you get 2hand-sword on the first floor, and dungeon B where there is not one at all.

Dungeon A is easier than B, but does that make your victory in dungeon A cheap?

Now, make the dungeon B compensates with few extra enchant scrolls. Yes, you could say that kind of mechanics would overall make the game easier, but I think that's a wrong way to look at it, and it would really make it just more balanced.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on July 16, 2016, 12:27:56 AM

What should I play next? Are any of the other Rogues on your site good?  They look a lot more complicated.

LazyCat - where do I play Brogue?

You should play Brogue, definitively. In my opinion it is by far the best, by far! Others don't even compare if you ask me, and it is the most similar to original Rogue. It's really kind of a sequel, Rogue 2. It's streamlined and well balanced, everything has a purpose and usually multiple ways in which to be used. Simple elements that combine in versatile ways, so often times what seems to be inescapable situation can actually be overcome by inventive and out of the box kind of thinking. For example, traps and other hazards that most times should be avoided can under circumstances be used to you advantage. People who play it for years still are coming up with new trick and things to do they have not thought of before. Read the forum to find out more, but perhaps it's better you don't and go discover things on your own.

https://sites.google.com/site/broguegame/

Here is my mod that adds music and sound effects:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/brogueaudio/


If you want to change the settings I'd highly recommend AliensRL.
http://alien.chaosforge.org/downloads

These are only two I play and I've tried many. It's not just how good they are, but also how much all the others suck. Heh! Of course that's just my opinion and I hope it does not offend anyone.  But since you like Rogue, I think it's possible we have somewhat similar taste and that you will like these two as well.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on July 17, 2016, 12:58:26 AM
Hey, just realized something. I saved my scroll of food detection for Floor 26 and I don't think it detected the Amulet. It did detect the food that was like two spaces away. Hmm.
That is because the Amulet is not edible.  You need a potion of magic detection to detect it.

Quote
What should I play next? Are any of the other Rogues on your site good?  They look a lot more complicated.
V3 and V4 are earlier versions, probably slightly easier.  Super-Rogue makes the dungeon deeper, adding more monsters and items, but with few big changes.  The others are a lot more complicated.

Let's say the whole dungeon is generated at the beginning and the game knows in advance all the items that will be in there. So now we have dungeon A where you get 2hand-sword on the first floor, and dungeon B where there is not one at all.

Dungeon A is easier than B, but does that make your victory in dungeon A cheap?

Now, make the dungeon B compensates with few extra enchant scrolls. Yes, you could say that kind of mechanics would overall make the game easier, but I think that's a wrong way to look at it, and it would really make it just more balanced.

You could say the game overall is more balanced, but the game in dungeon B has become easier and the game in dungeon A has not gotten harder.  So while it may be more balanced, it is also balanced somewhere easier.


WARNING!  I found another bug.  If you save the game while levitating or hallucinating, the effect will not wear off after you restore the game.  I plan to get this bug fixed in a few days.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 17, 2016, 03:05:47 AM
The only reason I said that about food detection was because I read somewhere that you could detect the Amulet with it. Thank god that food was right next to it or I would have been totally confused!
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 18, 2016, 06:55:20 PM
I used a wand of cancellation on a Venus Flytrap today. Not only did it let go of me, but its attacks did not gradually increase in damage (from what I could tell). Still better saved for Medusae, but when you're in a jam like I was, makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Lord_Mork on July 19, 2016, 02:51:25 AM
So after I wrote that response...

Well I'm a few days late...

But that's awesome!

Now that you've beat Rogue, what will be the fate of this thread? Will you tackle a separate game like nethack or a rogue derivative like Hexrogue? Or something else?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 19, 2016, 01:52:35 PM
So after I wrote that response...

Well I'm a few days late...

But that's awesome!

Now that you've beat Rogue, what will be the fate of this thread? Will you tackle a separate game like nethack or a rogue derivative like Hexrogue? Or something else?

Thanks! Good question - not sure about this thread. At some points I felt like I was the only one posting heh. That also made me go back to page one. Some guy with only two posts is who started this thread. I only picked up on it about five months afterward. It was fun to see my first post asking questions about how the game works.

Yep! Per LazyCat's recommendation, I've already moved on to Brogue. So far it's capturing my attention, but it sounds like it won't take as long to beat as Rogue did. I have always wondered about Nethack, so that's also got to be a consideration.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 27, 2016, 09:01:54 PM
Had an odd run today that almost made the leaderboard.

I found something like five or six rings, but could only identify one of them. Fortunately, that one was a ring of regeneration. I bet one of them was a ring of stealth, and had I had that at the end I might have had a shot again.  I just didn't have the patience to test them all out, and it was really late (Troll territory) before I had a curselifter in my inventory that allowed me to see if any of them were cursed - none of them were.

I had a two handed sword (may have even found a total of three), but ZERO enchants. Also never found a scroll of monster confusion, a scroll of magic mapping, or a scroll of monster hold. I did have two scrolls of scare monster, and used those to advance in the later levels.

My armor situation was so frustrating. I found about 3 or 4 armor class 6s, but every time I encountered an Aquator it was in a hallway or in the dark and he got first move. I must have corroded about 8 different armors. Throughout the run my defense was atrocious and I took heaps of damage. I had my ring of regen to recover, but I had to burn my precious few charges of slow monster and polymorph due to a combo of low defense and relatively low attack power. Never did find waterproofing.

In the end I was dropped on Floor 24 (or 25?) right next to a dragon. I had nothing on hand I could beat him with. I tried to run but just ended up getting fried three consecutive times. Wish I could have saved one of those scrolls of scare monster - that would have been fun. And that was the point where had I had a ring of stealth it would have saved my life. I've found that on those late levels equipping the ring of stealth right before descending the stairs is a really good idea.

***Almost forgot - the most frustrating part of this run was how poor my... hit% (?) was. Against the tougher enemies I would miss over and over again. My experience level was about right and my strength was in the 15-17 range, so I don't know what the problem was.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on July 27, 2016, 11:02:17 PM
Now that you've beat Rogue, what will be the fate of this thread? Will you tackle a separate game like nethack or a rogue derivative like Hexrogue? Or something else?
The thread will go on, most of us still haven't beat it. ;D

***Almost forgot - the most frustrating part of this run was how poor my... hit% (?) was. Against the tougher enemies I would miss over and over again. My experience level was about right and my strength was in the 15-17 range, so I don't know what the problem was.
On most good runs, you have strength at least 18 by the time you're down deep.  And there were no enchantments on the sword.  That makes a big difference.

The bug I mentioned with hallucination and levitation is fixed now.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 27, 2016, 11:36:12 PM
Question about the spear - is it supposed to be a more powerful projectile weapon than the others? Because I notice no difference and carrying one seems to take up precious inventory space. I just assumed since you only get one spear that was strongest.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on July 28, 2016, 02:12:09 AM
***Almost forgot - the most frustrating part of this run was how poor my... hit% (?) was. Against the tougher enemies I would miss over and over again. My experience level was about right and my strength was in the 15-17 range, so I don't know what the problem was.

+A, +B weapon

First enchant parameter (A) increases chance to hit, second (B) increases damage. With no enchants your weapons would have their default chance to hit %, which is apparently quite poor against deeper level monsters. Factors that influence chance to hit are: weapon chance to hit, your strength, and monster's armor.


Quote
Question about the spear - is it supposed to be a more powerful projectile weapon than the others?

Spear is 2d3 (2-6) melee and 1d6 (1-6) thrown. Shuriken is the best throwing weapon 2d4 (2-8). Arrows with bow are 2d3 (2-6). Darts 1d3 (1-3). Daggers 1d4 (1-4). That's just damage, not sure about chance to hit %, possibly the same.


Code: [Select]
    { "2x4", "1x3", /* Mace */
    { "3x4", "1x2", /* Long sword */
    { "1x1", "1x1", /* Bow */
    { "1x1", "2x3", /* Arrow */
    { "1x6", "1x4", /* Dagger */
    { "4x4", "1x2", /* 2h sword */
    { "1x1", "1x3", /* Dart */
    { "1x2", "2x4", /* Shuriken */
    { "2x3", "1x6", /* Spear */

First column is melee, second is thrown. By the way, in Rogue+ when a weapon is selected it shows this damage info, like this: "A +1, +1 mace [2-9]". If it is not identified it shows its base damage, like this: "A mace [2-8?]".
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on July 28, 2016, 03:40:07 AM
The bug I mentioned with hallucination and levitation is fixed now.

Is this available for download? Where do you keep most recent version? It seems download from rlgallery is different than the one on bitbucket.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 28, 2016, 12:20:55 PM
Died in a stupid way last night with a chance to go deep.  I had a two handed sword with two enchants and a STR of 18, slow monster, and light. Quagga took me from 50-something to 6. I was in a maze so I ran until I had 24 HP and tried again. Again he took me to 6. Checked my inventory and I had a bow equipped the whole time.  EFF.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on July 28, 2016, 02:28:38 PM
So after I wrote that response...

Wow, congratulations!
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on July 28, 2016, 03:02:56 PM
I'm gonna take another crack at this.

I'm currently playing the IBM port of 1.1.  Is there any particular reason to prefer another version over this one?

By the way, Squeeealer, if you want to get into other games in the genre, I recommend Brogue, Sil, and the original Shiren the Wanderer.

Brogue, as you probably know, is essentially a more refined and complex version of Rogue.

Sil has what I consider to be the best tactical combat in the genre, as well as a solid and unique character building system.  It's based on JRR Tolkien's "The Silmarillion" and is very faithful to the source material.

Shiren the best consumable-based strategic gameplay I've ever seen.    Very high frequency of dangerous enemies, but it gives you the tools you need to deal with them.  Make sure to avoid the item warehouse, as it makes the game too easy.  The SNES version is slightly preferable over the DS port, but both are good.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 28, 2016, 03:16:56 PM
I'm gonna take another crack at this.

I'm currently playing the IBM port of 1.1.  Is there any particular reason to prefer another version over this one?

By the way, Squeeealer, if you want to get into other games in the genre, I recommend Brogue, Sil, and the original Shiren the Wanderer.

Brogue, as you probably know, is essentially a more refined and complex version of Rogue.

Sil has what I consider to be the best tactical combat in the genre, as well as a solid and unique character building system.  It's based on JRR Tolkien's "The Silmarillion" and is very faithful to the source material.

Shiren the best consumable-based strategic gameplay I've ever seen.    Very high frequency of dangerous enemies, but it gives you the tools you need to deal with them.  Make sure to avoid the item warehouse, as it makes the game too easy.  The SNES version is slightly preferable over the DS port, but both are good.

Thanks!

I have been playing Brogue now for a little over a week. I am still learning and making tons of dumb mistakes. Part of it is that I'm stumped every time I encounter something new. Last night I finally put my efforts into an elite weapon (war hammer) and boy what an eye opener that was. But I still managed to screw it up and I died about Floor 13.

I bought Shiren for Wii last year and haven't played it yet. Is the SNES version in English? For some reason I thought it was Japanese language only.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on July 28, 2016, 08:45:51 PM
The SNES version is JP only, but there's a fan translation.  The Wii game is actually one of the sequels.  I haven't played it but I hear it's pretty different from the original.  The DS version is a slightly modified port of the SNES version, and it has an official English release.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 28, 2016, 10:47:50 PM
Okay, so the fan translation rom is floating around out there?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on July 28, 2016, 10:59:19 PM
I assume Slash doesn't want any talk about how to obtain roms in here.

The patch itself is perfectly legal though, and it can be found here (http://agtp.romhack.net/project.php?id=shiren).  You can use Lunar IPS (http://fusoya.eludevisibility.org/lips/) to apply it.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on July 28, 2016, 11:38:54 PM
I'm currently playing the IBM port of 1.1.  Is there any particular reason to prefer another version over this one?

You have Elwin's Roguelike Gallery: http://rlgallery.org/

The reason to play there, version 5.4.5 over Epyx version is because everyone else is playing that, and also the scoreboard is online, so your efforts will get recorded for everyone to see, if sufficiently good, which makes playing the game more meaningful.


And there is Rogue+: http://52.42.113.72:9999/

It's 5.4.5 with fully mouse driven interface. The reason to play that one is because it's more enjoyable and relaxed, also much faster to play with mouse. Plus the scoreboard is online as well, so you can compete with the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on July 29, 2016, 02:08:58 AM
You have Elwin's Roguelike Gallery: http://rlgallery.org/

Cool, thanks.

This is surprisingly different from the IBM port.  From what I've seen I like this one better mechanically.

Is there a way to fast move with the arrow keys?  I don't like hjkl.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 29, 2016, 02:37:40 AM
You can play very fast with the keyboard, maybe even faster than with the mouse version. Looks like you are playing now and playing quite quickly, so you may already have the hang of it.

CTRL+directional is the way to go. Using F to fight makes fights go much faster. I key an 8 before each search - helps searches go faster.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on July 29, 2016, 03:08:03 AM
Yeah I've got all that.  The problem is that the ctrl + direction functionality only works for me when the direction key is one of hjklyubn.  I'm much more used to moving around with numpad but ctrl doesn't do anything when I use that.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on July 29, 2016, 03:46:18 AM
Is there a way to fast move with the arrow keys?  I don't like hjkl.

Shift and Ctrl modifiers seem to work only with hjkl. To make situation worse it is not possible to just hold a key for continuous movement as the strokes will get recorded in the keyboard buffer and make your character move after you release the key and past the point where you wanted to stop


Quote
From what I've seen I like this one better mechanically.

Mechanically Rogue+ is far superior, or so it is intended to be. For what takes several key presses, and usually switching from map to inventory screen, and back, it can be achieved with only two mouse clicks. Also, you always move fast and usually can go where you want with a single click, which with keyboard could require pressing different directional keys plus changes in holding/releasing of shift/ctrl key.

As I am putting final touches on it any feedback is valuable, so I'd like to encourage you to try it out and let me know what you think in this thread here: http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=5114.msg47508
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on July 29, 2016, 01:36:57 PM
Rogue V5 at rlgallery.org is the "real" rogue right? It's by Glenn Wichman, Michael Toy, and Ken Arnold, and the mechanics/items/monsters haven't been tinkered with by others?

I tried Rogue+ for a few minutes and it seems like most of the keyboard commands don't work or have been changed?  And ctrl + numpad for fast move still doesn't work, so suggestion is to get all of that running.  Mouse support is nice but keyboard support is still faster and a complete necessity.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on July 29, 2016, 03:38:18 PM
The bug I mentioned with hallucination and levitation is fixed now.

Is this available for download? Where do you keep most recent version? It seems download from rlgallery is different than the one on bitbucket.
The newest source code is always in the Bitbucket repository.  Official releases (both source and binary) are on the rlgallery.org download page.  That bugfix is currently the only difference.

I'm currently playing the IBM port of 1.1.  Is there any particular reason to prefer another version over this one?
That is the original authors' last and most polished version.  Its disadvantages are needing DOS to run it and its questionable legality (unless you bought the floppies back in 1985).

I did not realize CTRL+arrow does not work reliably.  Another item for my list of things to do...

Rogue V5 at rlgallery.org is the "real" rogue right? It's by Glenn Wichman, Michael Toy, and Ken Arnold, and the mechanics/items/monsters haven't been tinkered with by others?
Yes, it's the real thing, based on the code Ken Arnold put on SourceForge (http://rogue.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/rogue/src/).  The Roguelike Restoration Project and I have only made maintenance updates.  None of the mechanics have changed.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on July 29, 2016, 04:39:03 PM
The real disadvantage of the IBM version is that nearly every room is dark even in the early parts of the game.  It also seems to be missing a few features, like instead of different versions of identify scrolls, there's just one scroll that works on any item.

Yes, it's the real thing, based on the code Ken Arnold put on SourceForge (http://rogue.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/rogue/src/).  The Roguelike Restoration Project and I have only made maintenance updates.  None of the mechanics have changed.

Awesome.  Your site is really cool, thanks for running it.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 31, 2016, 01:26:30 PM
Vanguard - did you see the ending to my deep run yesterday? So painful. I had a lot going for me, but I needed one more trick up my sleeve...

It was Floor 21. I started in the bottom middle room and a Medusa was blocking my passage (I had a ring of stealth on). I wasted a lot of turns trying to find an alternate route until ultimately using a scroll of magic mapping, and found out that the stairs were in the adjacent room just beyond the Medusa. I thought I could beat her in hand-to-hand combat, and wanted to because I knew my wand of poly was almost out. I was barely right. With something like 12 HP left and no room to move away further I beat her with my last gasp. I hightailed it to the stairs only to find a Black Unicorn sitting on them. So then I screwed around until I had full HP, moved one space away and threw a random projectile at him. I was going to move up diagonally, then down diagonally, assume I survive the two hits, and I should have been able to go down the stairs at that point.

But when he moved one space toward me, another Medusa pops out of the hallway at the exact same time and I'm completely blocked. Out of desperation I am able to change the Black Unicorn to a Venus Flytrap, but when I use it on the Medusa it's out of charges. At this point I know it's over so I quaff a potion of monster detection. All the wasted moves has created a horde of horribles.

Looking back I don't really think there was anything I should have done differently, so at least I don't have that awful feeling of regret. Trying to find an alternate route before using up my precious scroll of magic mapping was the right move. And considering that between that scroll and the one charge of the poly, only a miracle would have made it a successful run. Hmm, but maybe not. With my ring of stealth and tons of charges on my two staves of light the key would be finding the stairs ASAP without monsters spawning. I just ran into terrible luck being forced to engage two major enemies because they were in exactly the wrong places.

This run did have a couple of firsts for me. For one, it was the first time I'd ever had a ring of stealth with enough food that I could just keep it on permanently. That was fun. It was also the first time that I had a ring of stealth on while navigating a treasure room. I still managed to bumble around and run into a Nymph who promptly stole my bow, but considering what else she could have taken I was lucky.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on July 31, 2016, 02:34:25 PM
Vanguard - did you see the ending to my deep run yesterday? So painful. I had a lot going for me, but I needed one more trick up my sleeve...

I missed that one, but I do like to take a look when you've got a game going.  I like your lightning fast playing speed, and sometimes it's educational.

Too bad about your run, though.  This game is brutal.

You got any pro tips?  I recently learned that it's better to enter rooms vertically than horizontally.  Rooms tend to be wider than they are tall, so if you wait in the northern or southern doorway, it's more likely that an enemy will move into the spaces diagonal from your position, giving you an extra turn to react.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 31, 2016, 03:17:11 PM
Vanguard - did you see the ending to my deep run yesterday? So painful. I had a lot going for me, but I needed one more trick up my sleeve...

I missed that one, but I do like to take a look when you've got a game going.  I like your lightning fast playing speed, and sometimes it's educational.

Too bad about your run, though.  This game is brutal.

You got any pro tips?  I recently learned that it's better to enter rooms vertically than horizontally.  Rooms tend to be wider than they are tall, so if you wait in the northern or southern doorway, it's more likely that an enemy will move into the spaces diagonal from your position, giving you an extra turn to react.

Whoa, I never really thought of it that way. That's important for Medusae, but that deep in the cave I don't know if I can split hairs over which room entrance I'm taking. Good stuff.

I haven't watched enough of your play yet to see if I have anything for ya. It looked like you are still finding your rhythm in searching rooms. As a time saver, I recommend the A button for repeating actions. It makes using a bow and arrows/projectiles much faster and less chance of keystroke errors.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 31, 2016, 03:23:04 PM
***Almost forgot - the most frustrating part of this run was how poor my... hit% (?) was. Against the tougher enemies I would miss over and over again. My experience level was about right and my strength was in the 15-17 range, so I don't know what the problem was.

+A, +B weapon

First enchant parameter (A) increases chance to hit, second (B) increases damage. With no enchants your weapons would have their default chance to hit %, which is apparently quite poor against deeper level monsters. Factors that influence chance to hit are: weapon chance to hit, your strength, and monster's armor.


Thank you for this!  I never knew!  So is it random which one gets the increase when you read a scroll of enchant weapon? Does anyone have an opinion about which is preferred? I think I would much rather have the chance to hit over damage.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on July 31, 2016, 03:28:26 PM
The real disadvantage of the IBM version is that nearly every room is dark even in the early parts of the game.
I didn't know that.  It sounds quite annoying.  Rogue Clone did the opposite, and abolished dark rooms entirely.

Squeeealer, I saw you walking around the treasure room with stealth, but I missed the ending.  A sad tale.  I can't think of anything you could have done differently either.

I recently got killed between two Centaurs, which could probably have been avoided if I'd used my two scrolls of enchant weapon on my long sword instead of waiting to see if a two-handed sword got generated.  I still try to conserve items too much.

+A, +B weapon

First enchant parameter (A) increases chance to hit, second (B) increases damage. With no enchants your weapons would have their default chance to hit %, which is apparently quite poor against deeper level monsters. Factors that influence chance to hit are: weapon chance to hit, your strength, and monster's armor.


Thank you for this!  I never knew!  So is it random which one gets the increase when you read a scroll of enchant weapon? Does anyone have an opinion about which is preferred? I think I would much rather have the chance to hit over damage.
Yes, it's random.  Usually I prefer the to-hit bonus, but when enchanting your original mace, you need some of both.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on July 31, 2016, 03:59:21 PM
Thank you for this!  I never knew!  So is it random which one gets the increase when you read a scroll of enchant weapon? Does anyone have an opinion about which is preferred? I think I would much rather have the chance to hit over damage.

I'd rather have +damage on my starting mace and +hit on longswords and two handers.

I didn't know that.  It sounds quite annoying.  Rogue Clone did the opposite, and abolished dark rooms entirely.

I've played a few more rounds of that version and now I think it's probably the same.  I get superstitious when I play Rogue.  Start noticing patterns that aren't there.  Doesn't happen with any other game.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 31, 2016, 04:24:39 PM
So I've now had two runs recently where I found 5-6 rings, but only one scroll of identify. I also did not have a curselifter. What would you do in such a situation where you could tell you needed help to make it further? Would you test drive some rings or just hope there's good fortune just around the corner? What if two of the rings were identical? Would that have any bearing?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on July 31, 2016, 05:58:11 PM
If I find one really early on I put it on, and if it's not cursed I test to see if it's regeneration, otherwise I just name it "good" so that if I do find a scroll of identify, I can find out what that one is instead of wasting it on something cursed.  If it is cursed then I read my scrolls to try for remove curse, and failing that I kill myself.

Once I'm a little ways into my run I won't test them without either a scroll of remove curse, or a stack of unidentified scrolls large enough that there's a good chance of remove curse being in there.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on July 31, 2016, 09:11:45 PM
If I find one really early on I put it on, and if it's not cursed I test to see if it's regeneration, otherwise I just name it "good" so that if I do find a scroll of identify, I can find out what that one is instead of wasting it on something cursed.  If it is cursed then I read my scrolls to try for remove curse, and failing that I kill myself.

Once I'm a little ways into my run I won't test them without either a scroll of remove curse, or a stack of unidentified scrolls large enough that there's a good chance of remove curse being in there.

What a cruel game. Just watched you get two early gain strengths, a wand of poly, and an incredible string of HP gains. I think you were at 71 max HP at exp level 8? But you had sketchy armor and your mace with maybe one enchantment? And then you got a Troll sammich. Was that wand called "teleport" a wand of teleport to or teleport away?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on July 31, 2016, 09:46:56 PM
What a cruel game. Just watched you get two early gain strengths, a wand of poly, and an incredible string of HP gains. I think you were at 71 max HP at exp level 8? But you had sketchy armor and your mace with maybe one enchantment? And then you got a Troll sammich. Was that wand called "teleport" a wand of teleport to or teleport away?

Teleport away.  I totally had a way out of there, I just pressed the move button one time too many before I saw that second troll.  Oh well!

Those HP gains really were incredible, though.  I got 10 on both of my first two levels, and iirc I got an 8 on the third one.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 01, 2016, 12:17:33 AM
I'm really gaining an appreciation for this game.

The basics of Rogue are much the same as any other roguelike.  Get the first hit, don't get surrounded, have an escape route, manage your lifesaving items, etc.  What makes Rogue unique is the way it combines a extreme unforgiving difficulty with a very limited player character.  The end result is that you have to make every minor optimization you possibly can.  Like, I don't put too much thought into exactly how I'll explore empty rooms in Sil or how to squeeze every bit of utility out of doorways in Brogue because those little optimizations don't really matter compared to the bigger things you can do.  But in Rogue you need every single advantage you can get.

It's an incredible scrub filter.  If you come into the game with the attitude that you deserve to win, or that obsessing over minor details is beneath you, or that your failures aren't your fault and it's just a matter of rolling the dice enough, then you are going to get crushed.  The improvements you need to make to succeed in Rogue are subtle and you won't see them if you aren't actively looking for them.  There was a similar thread to this one that I participated in some years ago, and from reading my own posts, I clearly had a scrub attitude then.

That's not to say that I think it's a perfect or that I wouldn't have made any changes if I was one of its developers, but appreciate it for what it is - a mercilessly brutal game that tests your perseverance and attitude just as much as your tactics.

I've made two recent modifications to my play.  First, I test-ID early rings to see if they're stealth rings.  Stealth is possibly even more useful than regeneration, and it's not too hard to test for.  Other rings are difficult to test for and generally not worth it.  Maybe I'll start checking for slow digestion as well, but that's it.  The other change is that from floor 9 onwards, I step into a doorway, and then back into the nearest bend in the hallway.  This takes a few more turns than waiting in the doorway, but it's more reliable in getting the drop on aquators and other nasties.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on August 01, 2016, 03:18:15 AM
I still remember how I felt when I first started playing. I questioned what the point of this was. I thought there was no strategy because all you could do engage or run with the enemy tailing you the entire way. The "strategy" of this game is so subtle, it's hard to even recognize. And it comes with absolutely no guarantees. Now that I've escaped the Dungeon of Doom once, I almost feel like it wasn't real. I went back and watched the TTYREC, and while I was proud that I made some good moves, I still feel like there was plenty of luck involved or that I was somehow "blessed" for that moment in time.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 01, 2016, 08:30:58 AM
That's not to say that I think it's a perfect or that I wouldn't have made any changes...

I was asking before and I am still interested to hear what changes anyone think would benefit the game. So please, do tell, what would you change?


I think some use for useless/negative items would make the game more interesting. For example, potions of LSD, blindness and confusion could have confuse effect when thrown at monsters, while potion of poison could decrease monster's HP by point each turn. Also negative/useless wands. There could be "break a wand" action which could give its effect to the player, so breaking haste monster wand could haste you instead, while breaking invisibility wand could give you 'ring of stealth' effect.

Dark rooms, are they really a difficulty factor, or more of an annoyance factor? If there were no dark rooms at all, would you really be able to beat the game more often? Would the game be more enjoyable with less dark rooms, and is that worth making it slightly less difficult?


I already know the objection, people do not like the idea of making the game easier. But how much easier are we talking about, and does easier really mean "worse"? I think there is about only 1 in 100 dungeons with actual realistic chance to beat the game, even if you play every dungeon with the best logic and strategy. You will die 99% of the time simply because your sword does not hit hard or often enough. And so those changes I'm talking about will actually not make much difference, perhaps increase the chance of beating the game from 1% to 2%. But if they are going to make it more interesting, more enjoyable, even by 1%, then I think it's worth it, and easier game in that case would actually mean "better" game.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 01, 2016, 08:52:04 AM
I went back and watched the TTYREC, and while I was proud that I made some good moves, I still feel like there was plenty of luck involved or that I was somehow "blessed" for that moment in time.

It was luck that you got the dungeon generated with a theoretical chance to be beaten, but that you actually made it through had to be due to your skill, or let's call it ability to not make (many) tactical/strategic mistakes. In other words, it's definitively something you can brag about. However, it does make me wonder if another 100 people played as many games as you did, how many times, if any, would they ascend.

This brings me to Brogue, and what I really like about it. However relatively hard, and always challenging, it seems with every dungeon there is still at least some theoretical chance to make it out with the amulet. I call that well-balanced game, and I think in that sense Rogue should be more Broguelike.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 01, 2016, 01:56:23 PM
I was asking before and I am still interested to hear what changes anyone think would benefit the game. So please, do tell, what would you change?

The thing about improving Rogue is that the roguelike genre has gotten so much better over the years that there's no point.  You're never gonna tweak Rogue until it's more tactical than Sil or has as much cool stuff as Nethack or is as overall excellent as Brogue.  The reason for playing Rogue is because it's Rogue, you know?  Not because it's the best roguelike but because of its historical importance, or so you can say you've beaten such an infamous game.

With that said, I'd start by increasing the game's tendency to generate light rooms over dark rooms.  I'd still keep dark rooms and I wouldn't increase the player's default vision radius because those are very important parts of the game's personality and difficulty.  One extra turn is enough to turn tons of encounters in your favor.  Aquators in particular don't matter at all if you can see them coming.  Dark rooms are sort of interesting because they reduce your tactical options by a lot, so initially I thought that it'd be better if they were removed.  But the thing is, all the depth Rogue loses to dark rooms can be found in other roguelikes, and the depth Rogue gains from forcing you to engage with dark rooms is unique.  Anyway, I'd say a good change would be to make the rate of dark rooms increase at one half of the game's default rate.  By the time you reach the bottom everything would be dark, but you'd still have at least one light room in most lower floors as a good place to rest, retreat, test ID, etc.

I'd do something about the difficulty of finding an endgame-worthy weapon without increasing the power of endgame weapons.  Something like changing spears to 2d8 and longswords to 3d5 sounds about right.  It might also be worth changing maces to 2d6 and starting the player with a +0,+0 mace instead.  That way your starting position would be about as strong as it currently is, but it'd be worth identifying other maces in case you found a good one.

Oh yeah and I'd give elemental staves 100% accuracy because why not.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on August 01, 2016, 02:55:27 PM
That's funny you mention elemental staves - I was just thinking about them last night. Right now I consider them disposable because the juice doesn't seem to be worth the squeeze. They miss so often and seem awfully weak for such cool sounding items.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 01, 2016, 04:39:10 PM
Their damage is superb, but yeah they're still not very good.  I recently had a game where I fired a staff of cold at a centaur 5 times and none of them hit.  At this point I just treat them as slightly better arrows.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 01, 2016, 05:07:43 PM
Here's a good suggestion for that Rogue variant: let enemies trigger traps on themselves.  Also it might be good to make traps break after a certain number of activations.  That way it's not too exploitable and it fixes the problem of a teleport trap blocking a room.

Squeeealer, have you spent much time with other roguelikes yet?  What do you think of them?  Two more that you may want to try out are ADOM and Ragnarok.  Both are hacklikes, which mostly means that they're full of complex interactions between items, monsters, the dungeon, etc. and that success is more about what you do to prepare for an encounter rather than what you do during the encounter.  ADOM has optional tiles and Ragnarok is tiles-only if you care about that.  Also, do you have any interest in action games?  I think you've got the right personality for arcade 1CCs.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 01, 2016, 08:24:45 PM
TIL that Xerocs can imitate stairs.

RIP that character.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 01, 2016, 10:37:50 PM
The thing about improving Rogue is that the roguelike genre has gotten so much better over the years that there's no point. 
You're never gonna tweak Rogue until it's more tactical than Sil or has as much cool stuff as Nethack or is as overall excellent as Brogue.  The reason for playing Rogue is because it's Rogue, you know?  Not because it's the best roguelike but because of its historical importance, or so you can say you've beaten such an infamous game.

I don't think "better" is quite adequate, for they are in different categories. I play Rogue for kind of similar reasons I might play some Solitaire card game rather than playing Chess. Different game categories scratch different kind of itch and fit in different time-investment slots. Rogue, in its category, let's call it "coffee-break", I think is still one of the best.

So when I'm talking about improving Rogue, it's not about making it more complex, but more balanced. It's not about adding new stuff, but rather making what's already there more versatile, and in turn perhaps making it slightly more tactical.


Anyhow, I agree with the changes you suggested. Ultimately they all would make the game easier, but I think they would also make it more balanced, which is more important, or so I say. Look at those Solitaire games for example, again, the fact you can beat them relatively often doesn't take away from their replayability at all.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 02, 2016, 12:31:42 PM
That's funny you mention elemental staves - I was just thinking about them last night. Right now I consider them disposable because the juice doesn't seem to be worth the squeeze. They miss so often and seem awfully weak for such cool sounding items.

Looking at the code I think they actually never hit. The damage is 6d6 (6-36), so it's pretty good, but range is limited.

Note to Elwin:
Quote
        if (hurl)
        {
            if ((weap->o_flags&ISMISL)
                && cur_weapon != NULL && cur_weapon->o_which == weap->o_launch)
            {
                cp = weap->o_hurldmg;
                hplus += cur_weapon->o_hplus;
                dplus += cur_weapon->o_dplus;
            }
            else
            if (weap->o_launch < 0)
                cp = weap->o_hurldmg;
        }

In "fight.c", function roll_em(), there is that piece of code which assigns damage string to 'cp' variable.  The thing is 'o_launch' is never defined for elemental wands, and without it cp doesn't get initialized with o_hurldmg, so it stays NULL and thus the dice don't roll. My quick fix for that is to initialize "bolt.o_launch= -1;" in "sticks.c", fire_bolt() function.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 02, 2016, 08:14:39 PM
You hear maniacal laughter in the distance
The medusa hit you
You die

Rogue!
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 03, 2016, 12:27:12 AM
Getting confused by Medusa's gaze can be avoided by making her invisible, by making yourself blind, or by taking hallucinogenic drugs. So some of those negative potions are not useless after all, that's what I call versatility!
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on August 03, 2016, 06:24:57 PM
Here's a good suggestion for that Rogue variant: let enemies trigger traps on themselves.  Also it might be good to make traps break after a certain number of activations.  That way it's not too exploitable and it fixes the problem of a teleport trap blocking a room.

Squeeealer, have you spent much time with other roguelikes yet?  What do you think of them?  Two more that you may want to try out are ADOM and Ragnarok.  Both are hacklikes, which mostly means that they're full of complex interactions between items, monsters, the dungeon, etc. and that success is more about what you do to prepare for an encounter rather than what you do during the encounter.  ADOM has optional tiles and Ragnarok is tiles-only if you care about that.  Also, do you have any interest in action games?  I think you've got the right personality for arcade 1CCs.

No, I've spent very little time with them. In fact, just a couple weeks of Brogue, now. I'm wondering if I'd even enjoy more complex/immersive roguelikes. I do like Rogue for the reasons mentioned - you can have a quick game or even a few games. There's no expectation going in and there's no time commitment issues. What are arcade 1CCs?

What's weird is that the other roguelike I play is far more of a time commitment - you can complete most runs, even challenge runs, about 50% of the time and they take about ten hours. There's lot of preparing for encounters like you mentioned - swapping equipment around, getting your equipment right, etc. So who knows what I'd like. I think I'm just overwhelmed when I first start a game because I want to know everything and I know so little. Also I have not improved at Brogue, so kinda frustrating.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 03, 2016, 10:54:56 PM
1CC stands for 1 credit clear.  It's where you play an arcade or arcade-style game, and you try to beat it without using any continues.  The levels of depth and challenge you can find in some of them are even higher than roguelikes, and a lot of them feature in-depth scoring systems if you want to play competitively.  In my opinion it's the pinnacle of single-player gaming.

Brogue is one of the more hardcore roguelikes.  It's an excellent game, much deeper and more fair than Rogue, but it's also gonna be really rough if you're not familiar with the genre.

I've been playing roguelikes for more than 20 years now, and despite my repeated failures in Rogue, I'm pretty good at them.  If you want I can write up descriptions of different roguelikes to try to find some that appeal to you.  I'd also be willing to throw together some guides if you want help getting started in anything.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on August 04, 2016, 06:08:34 PM
1CC stands for 1 credit clear.  It's where you play an arcade or arcade-style game, and you try to beat it without using any continues.  The levels of depth and challenge you can find in some of them are even higher than roguelikes, and a lot of them feature in-depth scoring systems if you want to play competitively.  In my opinion it's the pinnacle of single-player gaming.

Brogue is one of the more hardcore roguelikes.  It's an excellent game, much deeper and more fair than Rogue, but it's also gonna be really rough if you're not familiar with the genre.

I've been playing roguelikes for more than 20 years now, and despite my repeated failures in Rogue, I'm pretty good at them.  If you want I can write up descriptions of different roguelikes to try to find some that appeal to you.  I'd also be willing to throw together some guides if you want help getting started in anything.

Ahh, I see on 1CCs. Part of my fascination with roguelikes is my fascination with random. I'm not a very big fan of memorization. I recently watched a couple minutes of a Mega Man 5 (?) speed run and I hated that it reduced the game to a series of memorized button pushes and such. I'm still having fun with Rogue and I'm still working on Brogue, but I'll definitely come to you when I'm ready for a new challenge.

Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 04, 2016, 07:41:37 PM
If you're not interested, it's fine, but just for the record, there are tons of action games that use small amounts of RNG in things like enemy AI to make them fairly memorization-proof, and there are also non-random action games that have a sort of butterfly effect, where extremely minor differences in player input lead to very different outcomes, so that even world record-level players need to improvise.  The megaman series is generally very susceptible to memorization though.

Anyway, good luck with Brogue.  Since you can beat Rogue, you'll definitely be able to handle it.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on August 04, 2016, 09:29:17 PM
My favorite arcade game is Bubble Bobble. But I don't know how to MAME.  :D
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on August 05, 2016, 01:14:02 AM
@LazyCat: I think you're right about the elemental staves.  I'm going to run it through the debugger to make sure, but the fix should be online soon.  Thanks for reporting this.

@Squeeealer: Ever tried HyperRogue (http://www.roguetemple.com/z/hyper)?  The geometry is counterintuitive, and the mechanics are very different from Rogue, but the overall gameplay has some similarities.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on August 05, 2016, 01:46:30 AM
I had a run tonight where I think I made the most of what I had. Once again, I found no rings. I found one wand, and it was a measly wand of magic missile. I did have a two handed sword with one enchantment, and I got my STR up to 20. Trolls were no problem. But anything tougher was a major ordeal. I had to use monster confusion against a Griffin to beat him. I never did see a Medusa. If I had a wand of slow monster I could have taken this a lot farther.

I think one thing that was a drain on my finds was that I was finding a ridiculous amount of food. If you are finding food does that necessarily mean that you aren't finding something else?

I died on Floor 22 after reading another scroll of monster confusion but not being able to connect against a Black Unicorn in three tries.  I had waterproofing, but couldn't improve my armor class past 6. It feels good to have performed well, but I can't help but wonder what if...

Also, Rattlesnakes have been plaguing me recently. I have strength-sapped induced deaths 3x in the past couple days.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 05, 2016, 02:27:13 AM
@LazyCat: I think you're right about the elemental staves.  I'm going to run it through the debugger to make sure, but the fix should be online soon.  Thanks for reporting this.

Code: [Select]
.
.
            else
            if (weap->o_launch < 0)
                cp = weap->o_hurldmg;

It is puzzling to me why is there that test for o_launch being less than zero at all. Without it would work, if it was just like this:

Code: [Select]
.
.
            else
                cp = weap->o_hurldmg;

Let me know if you figure out more about it.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Lord_Mork on August 05, 2016, 01:56:26 PM
The geometry is counterintuitive, and the mechanics are very different from Rogue, but the overall gameplay has some similarities.

I think the one major uncomfortable difference between HyperRogue and others of the genre is the lack of inventory management.
You don't have to keep track of armor, weapons, scrolls, potions, rings, etcetera. Most of the items have little effect aside from unlocking new area types. The ones that do have an effect are quite cool but also don't really need to be managed. The lack of Hunger bothers me somewhat, but I guess the game is difficult enough.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 05, 2016, 06:37:56 PM
@LazyCat: I think you're right about the elemental staves.  I'm going to run it through the debugger to make sure, but the fix should be online soon.  Thanks for reporting this.

I know for sure I've hit with elemental staves in v4, and I'm pretty sure I've gotten them to hit in v5.  If there is a bug, and it was present in the original, I'd like to have the option to still play the game with its original balance.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 05, 2016, 10:48:24 PM
I just got an early wand of cold in v4 and used it to clear out a treasure room.  It hit every single time, so I think either they got nerfed in v5 (whether intentionally or unintentionally), or they have a base level of accuracy that doesn't improve as the player grows, so they're only reliable in the early game.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on August 05, 2016, 11:19:07 PM
After spending a day digging through the tombs of long-dead source code, I have unearthed a few facts:

If an elemental bolt is working properly, it will hit a monster 50% to 80% of the time, depending only on the monster's level.

Rogue V5 contains the bug found by LazyCat, where the bolt's launcher is an uninitialized variable.  If this uninitialized value turns out to be positive, the bolt will do no damage.  The value is often the same throughout a whole game, so either the bolt always works properly, or all elemental staves are useless.  I suspect the compiler and its settings have the most influence over which happens.

This bug appears in our version of Rogue V5, but is not in PC Rogue, which makes me suspect someone introduced it at Berkeley after the original authors left.  It is definitely not intentional, and is not the behavior described in the Vade-Mecum.

There may be other bugs affecting elemental staves in other versions.

I intend to fix this.  The game will not get any easier than it often is.

Code: [Select]
.
.
            else
            if (weap->o_launch < 0)
                cp = weap->o_hurldmg;

It is puzzling to me why is there that test for o_launch being less than zero at all. Without it would work, if it was just like this:

Code: [Select]
.
.
            else
                cp = weap->o_hurldmg;

Let me know if you figure out more about it.

That test is there to rule out weapons which need a launcher that you don't have equipped.  Otherwise o_hurldmg would be used for all thrown weapons.  There would be no difference between shooting arrows with a bow and throwing them by hand unless the bow had an enchantment.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 05, 2016, 11:19:55 PM
I know for sure I've hit with elemental staves in v4, and I'm pretty sure I've gotten them to hit in v5.  If there is a bug, and it was present in the original, I'd like to have the option to still play the game with its original balance.

What is the original, Epyx version for DOS? Then perhaps you also want different ID scrolls be merged into one, to have ability to throw potions and affect monsters, to have vorpal enchant, ice monsters to shoot ice blasts? Also, I doubt very much "the original" has this bug. I'm certain Mac and Atari ST originals don't.

Unfortunately, judging by the lack of features and presence of bugs, it seems v4, v5 and whole that branch was split from the original source before the game was actually complete or properly tested. Anyway, what v4 are you talking about, where did you get it?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 05, 2016, 11:39:36 PM
That test is there to rule out weapons which need a launcher that you don't have equipped.  Otherwise o_hurldmg would be used for all thrown weapons.  There would be no difference between shooting arrows with a bow and throwing them by hand unless the bow had an enchantment.

Quote
        if (hurl)
        {
            if ((weap->o_flags&ISMISL)
                && cur_weapon != NULL && cur_weapon->o_which == weap->o_launch)
            {
                cp = weap->o_hurldmg;
                hplus += cur_weapon->o_hplus;
                dplus += cur_weapon->o_dplus;
            }
            else
            if (weap->o_launch < 0)
                cp = weap->o_hurldmg;
        }

It looks to me the first test takes care of arrows when bow is equipped. So then for every other case I don't think there should be any test and cp would simply be initialized with the default damage.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 06, 2016, 12:27:48 AM
Just looked at v4 source from rlgallery and indeed it doesn't have that second test:

Quote
   if (hurl)
       if ((weap->o_flags&ISMISL) && cur_weapon != NULL &&
         cur_weapon->o_which == weap->o_launch)
       {
      cp = weap->o_hurldmg;
      hplus += cur_weapon->o_hplus;
      dplus += cur_weapon->o_dplus;
       }
       else
      cp = weap->o_hurldmg;


Epyx 1.48 version handles it without additional test as well:

Quote
    cp = weap->o_damage;
    if (hurl && (weap->o_flags&ISMISL) && cur_weapon!=NULL && cur_weapon->o_which==weap->o_launch)
    {
      cp = weap->o_hurldmg;
      hplus += cur_weapon->o_hplus;
      dplus += cur_weapon->o_dplus;
    }

...but this fails to assign throwing damage for all the other cases, so instead those projectiles incorrectly deal melee damage, or so it would seem.


Also, in Epyx 1.48 missile wand has "bolt.o_hplus = 1000;" which should make them hit every time, while elemental wands have "bolt.o_hplus = 30;" that probably also makes them hit pretty much every time. In v5 they all have "bolt.o_hplus = 100;", so I think the intention was to make them hit every time, which makes sense for them being late game weapon and it's really needed to help handle late game monsters.

Now looking back at Squeeealer's victory without being able to use these very helpful wands, it was really a some kind of miracle.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 06, 2016, 02:42:40 AM
More bugs...

This one is really funny and quite unfortunate, present in v5, v4, and also Epyx 1.48:

Quote
    /*
     * If the creature being attacked is not running (alseep or held)
     * then the attacker gets a plus four bonus to hit.
     */
    if (!on(*thdef, ISRUN))
   hplus += 4;

File "fight.c", function roll_em(). This is supposed to give the player bonus chance to hit sleeping (held) monsters, and monsters to get this bonus when player is faint or frozen/paralyzed. The funny part is that it actually gives monsters this bonus all the time, while player never gets it. Ha-ha! As if the game was not intended to be hard enough these bugs make it still much harder and super-very unfair. And that Squeeealer managed to beat it with all these bugs and against all odds, I have to say again it's some kind of miracle.

Anyhow, there are two problems. First, ISRUN flag for the player is not handled properly somewhere else in the code so effectively the player is always "fainted" and thus the monsters always get this to-hit bonus. Second, in function fight(), there is a call to function runto(), which wakes up monsters, before the dice roll, so by the time it is decided whether to give the player to-hit bonus for sleeping/held monsters they are already up and running and thus the player never gets it.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 06, 2016, 03:07:01 AM
What is the original, Epyx version for DOS? Then perhaps you also want different ID scrolls be merged into one, to have ability to throw potions and affect monsters, to have vorpal enchant, ice monsters to shoot ice blasts? Also, I doubt very much "the original" has this bug. I'm certain Mac and Atari ST originals don't.

Unfortunately, judging by the lack of features and presence of bugs, it seems v4, v5 and whole that branch was split from the original source before the game was actually complete or properly tested. Anyway, what v4 are you talking about, where did you get it?

The Unix version was the original, but that's not what I'm talking about.  If I play Rogue v4 I want it to be the same v4 as everyone else has been playing throughout the years.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 06, 2016, 04:28:41 AM
More bugs...

This one is really funny and quite unfortunate, present in v5, v4, and also Epyx 1.48

Looks like someone else noticed the same thing in another thread a few years ago.  http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=3491.0 (http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=3491.0)
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 06, 2016, 05:04:49 AM
Alright I just did some testing that seems to confirm that the bug is present in v4 but not v3 on Elwin's site.

I let level 1 enemies attack a fresh character 150 times in v3 and 52 of them hit, so that's 34.667%.  Next I took 156 attacks from level 1 enemies as fresh character in v4 and 84 of them hit, which is 53.846%.  A +4 bonus to hit is 20%, so that's exactly what I'd expect to see.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 06, 2016, 07:57:48 AM
Alright I just did some testing that seems to confirm that the bug is present in v4 but not v3 on Elwin's site.

I let level 1 enemies attack a fresh character 150 times in v3 and 52 of them hit, so that's 34.667%.  Next I took 156 attacks from level 1 enemies as fresh character in v4 and 84 of them hit, which is 53.846%.  A +4 bonus to hit is 20%, so that's exactly what I'd expect to see.

v3 doesn't have that bonus damage code at all, so yes, that fits your observation. The bug came with v4 as soon as the bonus to-hit feature was implemented. In other words, it was not implemented properly from the start and obviously it was not tested properly, which is disappointing.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 06, 2016, 08:52:23 AM
Looks like someone else noticed the same thing in another thread a few years ago.  http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=3491.0 (http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=3491.0)

Interesting. I have to comment on what Elwin said there...


Quote from: elwin
Monsters getting a bonus is probably not a bug.

Code: [Select]
    /*
     * If the creature being attacked is not running (alseep or held)
     * then the attacker gets a plus four bonus to hit.
     */
    if (!on(*thdef, ISRUN))
hplus += 4;

If you look at the comment, it talks about: "creature", "asleep", "held". All those point that the bonus was meant to help the player against monsters primarily, and possibly not the other way around at all. The test against ISRUN flag is used a lot in the code handling monsters, but only a few times concerning the player, so I would not be surprised if whoever wrote that didn't know ISRUN flag would actually apply to the player and thus give monsters the bonus as well.

In conclusion, monsters getting the bonus when character is frozen could very well not actually be intended, but the fact monsters get this bonus all the time is almost certainly a bug, and definitively not justified as monsters were already deadly more than enough.


Quote from: elwin
The Rogue devs extensively tested the game, and I doubt they accidentally made it substantially harder than they intended.

If it was only about monsters getting the bonus, and getting it all the time, but it's even worse than that, it's about player never getting the bonus at all. Clearly that was not intention, so it seems whoever wrote that didn't really have a clue what they were doing, and however extensive the testing, it was obviously not proper.

It's not kind of thing you would normally notice through play-testing having the game employ a very wide RNG range for most outcomes. It ought to had been tested within the code itself. I tested it by simply putting a print string command that would print on the screen "bonus" if the test passed and "no bonus" if it didn't. When monsters attack it always says "bonus", and when player attacks it always says "no bonus" even when when attacking sleeping ones. As I pointed out earlier, when looking in the code it is clear why is that so.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on August 06, 2016, 12:09:35 PM
There are two possible issues here.

1. Monsters always get a to-hit bonus when attacking the player.

If you work through the numbers in the Vade-Mecum's sections on fighting and armor, you'll see that it describes the +4 bonus.  See in particular the part about how much AC is needed to block all hits from Hobgoblins.  If the mechanics have always been that way, to the point where they're described in the Vade-Mecum, I'm not going to call it a bug.

While the authors may not always have understood why their code did what it did, a 20% increase in monster accuracy has a significant effect, one that they and their lab of playtesters would have noticed.  It may have been introduced by accident, but it remained deliberately, and became part of the balance of the game.

2. The player never gets the bonus, even when attacking a sleeping monster.

If this is happening, it is definitely a bug.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 06, 2016, 01:41:00 PM
There are two possible issues here.

1. Monsters always get a to-hit bonus when attacking the player.

If you work through the numbers in the Vade-Mecum's sections on fighting and armor, you'll see that it describes the +4 bonus.  See in particular the part about how much AC is needed to block all hits from Hobgoblins.  If the mechanics have always been that way, to the point where they're described in the Vade-Mecum, I'm not going to call it a bug.

While the authors may not always have understood why their code did what it did, a 20% increase in monster accuracy has a significant effect, one that they and their lab of playtesters would have noticed.  It may have been introduced by accident, but it remained deliberately, and became part of the balance of the game.

I get what you're saying but it should be clear if the original intention was for monsters to get the bonus all the time there wouldn't be any test against ISRUN flag.

Regarding historicity of it, it seems to me you give too much credit to some random people I think we don't know who they actually are, and I don't see a reason why should their version of the game be taken as the reference.

Why not Epyx DOS version be the reference? Even better, Mac or Atari ST versions as they came later and likely were more refined and more bug-fixed, plus they were made by the actual original authors of the game.


Quote
2. The player never gets the bonus, even when attacking a sleeping monster.

If this is happening, it is definitely a bug.

It is happening. Simple solution is to move the call to runto() function from the beginning of the fight() function to its end.

This makes it obvious the whole addition of "to-hit bonus" feature in v4 was half-assed. Instead of giving the player slightly better chance of fighting monsters, it made already hard game not just harder but also unfair.

I also think this shows your reasoning regarding historical preservation is flawed. You could just as well say you want to preserve this bug for the same reasons you want to preserve the first bug. The flaw is not in your desire to keep it historically accurate, the problem is in choosing which version to take as a proper historical reference.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 06, 2016, 06:32:18 PM
It's clearly a bug rather than an intended feature, but it's still part of the game people have been playing for 30 years.  Rogue v5 without the ISRUN bug isn't Rogue v5 anymore.  It might be a better game than Rogue v5 but it's not the same game people have been playing for decades and beating it isn't the same achievement.

As for me, I'm going to chicken out and play v3 instead.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on August 06, 2016, 08:16:47 PM
Just got done playing and had a run with a staff of lightning with three charges. First charge defeated a Troll.  Second and third charges also connected and combined to beat a Troll. Nice  8)
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: elwin on August 07, 2016, 01:30:47 AM
I get what you're saying but it should be clear if the original intention was for monsters to get the bonus all the time there wouldn't be any test against ISRUN flag.
I know.  Sometimes I think I should have fixed the broken flag instead of excising it.  I'll experiment and see how much difference it really makes.

Quote
Regarding historicity of it, it seems to me you give too much credit to some random people I think we don't know who they actually are, and I don't see a reason why should their version of the game be taken as the reference.

Why not Epyx DOS version be the reference? Even better, Mac or Atari ST versions as they came later and likely were more refined and more bug-fixed, plus they were made by the actual original authors of the game.

There is one good reason to use Unix Rogue, and that is that we have legitimate copies of its source code.

Quote
I also think this shows your reasoning regarding historical preservation is flawed. You could just as well say you want to preserve this bug for the same reasons you want to preserve the first bug. The flaw is not in your desire to keep it historically accurate, the problem is in choosing which version to take as a proper historical reference.
I would not say that trying to preserve Unix Rogue as it was distributed with BSD is an inherently flawed goal.  It is a real historical game, as much as PC Rogue, Mac Rogue, or Atari Rogue, though it differs from them.  Transforming it into one of them is an ambitious project, and probably a valuable one, but it's a different project.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 07, 2016, 02:04:52 AM
I would not say that trying to preserve Unix Rogue as it was distributed with BSD is an inherently flawed goal.  It is a real historical game, as much as PC Rogue, Mac Rogue, or Atari Rogue, though it differs from them.  Transforming it into one of them is an ambitious project, and probably a valuable one, but it's a different project.

https://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/NetBSD-release-7/src/games/rogue/

This BSD distribution looks quite different than v3/v4/v5 branch. Do you know how v3/v4/v5 came about and how come it differs from that BSD version? Was any of the original, actual authors still involved at the time v3/v4/v5 was released? Or was it that at the time any of them were still involved it was with the branch from that NetBSD link above?

Do you know which of these two versions was distributed more and played by more people throughout the years, or could it actually be Rogue Clone that was distributed and played the most?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 07, 2016, 02:20:44 AM
It's clearly a bug rather than an intended feature, but it's still part of the game people have been playing for 30 years.  Rogue v5 without the ISRUN bug isn't Rogue v5 anymore.  It might be a better game than Rogue v5 but it's not the same game people have been playing for decades and beating it isn't the same achievement.

As for me, I'm going to chicken out and play v3 instead.

You seem to think v5 is the most spread out version and thus played by the most people throughout the years. Do you actually know this to be true? I do not know, but my impression was that it is a version produced by some random people only after any of the original, actual authors were involved, and I think it's questionable how much widespread it really is. But again, I don't really know, and I would like to know.

Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 07, 2016, 04:06:42 AM
That has nothing to do with my point, but v5 was made by the original authors.  It's the final release of the the original Unix version of Rogue.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 07, 2016, 07:25:23 AM
That has nothing to do with my point, but v5 was made by the original authors.  It's the final release of the the original Unix version of Rogue.

Your point seems contradictory. You first say leave the bugs, but then you also say you will not play it.

It is true, Rogue v5 without ISRUN bug isn't Rogue v5 any more. But neither was Rogue v3 anymore when it became Rogue v4.
So how about we fix v5 bugs and call it v6, then this v6 could be the reference point for everyone and the most played version in the next 20 years. Doesn't that make more sense than sticking with bugs or rolling back to some old version?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 07, 2016, 07:33:26 AM
I found out that there's a way to get permanent haste in v3.  I assume it's a bug.  It's probably something similar to the ISRUN situation.  Don't know if it works in other versions.  And with that said...

(http://i.imgur.com/0pzemhM.png)

I wouldn't blame someone if they didn't consider this a legitimate win, but it's good enough for me.  I don't want to play any more Rogue.

Permahaste aside, I had extremely good luck in that run.  I found the only two handed sword I've ever seen in v3 and the only scroll of genocide I've seen in any version.  I used it on umber hulks, of course.  I also had really nice armor that was at one point enchanted all the way to AC -1 (the equivalent of AC 11 in v5). 

I had beaten a xorn in a fight before I was able to trigger permanent haste (I had triggered it in one prior game), and I considered not doing it because that character might have been strong enough to win without it, but in the end I decided to play it safe.

I don't know if I'd recommend playing v3 for a lower difficulty.  The absence of the ISRUN bug makes a huge difference, but v3 doesn't have some of the useful items in later versions, and umber hulks/medusas are even more hardcore than they are in v4 and v5.  Two handed swords seem much more rare as well.  Most importantly, it's just not as fun or polished as later versions.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 07, 2016, 07:42:29 AM
Your point seems contradictory. You first say leave the bugs, but then you also say you will not play it.

It is true, Rogue v5 without ISRUN bug isn't Rogue v5 any more. But neither was Rogue v3 anymore when it became Rogue v4.
So how about we fix v5 bugs and call it v6, then this v6 could be the reference point for everyone and the most played version in the next 20 years. Doesn't that make more sense than sticking with bugs or rolling back to some old version?

Anything that presents itself as Rogue v5 should keep whatever bugs were present in Rogue v5.  For your new variant you should, of course, fix the ISRUN bug.  It will be a better game without it.  But as I said before, I think the only reason to play Rogue is for its historical value.  Now there are dozens of excellent roguelikes that blow the original away.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 07, 2016, 02:01:49 PM
I wouldn't blame someone if they didn't consider this a legitimate win, but it's good enough for me.

Congratulations. I'd say it counts, as far as v3 goes, but of course it doesn't compare to Squeeealer's miraculous victory in v5.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: LazyCat on August 07, 2016, 02:18:37 PM
So I discovered the NetBSD Rogue link I posted earlier is actually Rogue Clone.

- "The 'Rogue' that many users play is not Toy's and Wichman's original game, nor is it a port of that game, but it is a reimplementation of that game called a Rogue clone... The source code of one such clone found its way its way into the Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD) at about 1987, and both FreeBSD and NetBSD continue to distribute it today."
http://gaming.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue

- "I wrote this code (Rogue Clone) out of disgust for the inexcusable number of bugs that rogue 5.3 is famous for... "
http://www.mobygames.com/game/rogue-clone


Elwin, in case you want to host Rogue Clone on your website here is the Linux port:
https://github.com/qbradq/rogue-clone
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 07, 2016, 08:14:55 PM
Congratulations. I'd say it counts, as far as v3 goes, but of course it doesn't compare to Squeeealer's miraculous victory in v5.

Thanks.  And yeah, clearly any win that abuses permahaste is far less impressive than one that doesn't.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on August 07, 2016, 11:33:10 PM
Spent some time reveling in my victory. Ahh, glory days... here's a fight summary of the tough floors.

13 - Troll - slow
13 - Troll - normal
13 - Troll - slow
14 - Troll - normal
15 - (was blind and hallucinating for a while)
15 - Troll - normal
16 - Phantom x3 - normal
17 - Troll - normal
18 - Phantom, Xeroc, Flytrap - normal
21 - Black Unicorn - slow
21 - Phantom - normal
21 - Griffin - slow
21 - Griffin - slow
21 - Vampire - normal (lost 3 max HP)
21 - Medusa - normal (while confused in hallway)
21 - Vampire - normal (lost 3 max HP)
21 - Vampire - normal
23 - Griffin - poly (to Emu)
24 - Medusa - normal (monster detection)
24 - (found second poly)
24 - Xeroc x2 - normal
24 - Griffin - slow
24 - Black Unicorn - normal
24 - Black Unicorn - slow
24 - Vampire - normal
24 - Jabberwock - poly (to Phantom - normal)
25 - Vampire x2 - normal
25 - Medusa - normal (in hallway)
26 - Griffin - slow
26 - Medusa - normal (backpedaling)
26 - Black Unicorn - slow (final slow charge)
25 - use final light charge
24 - Vampire - normal
22 - Dragon - poly x3 (to Griffin to Jabberwock to Phantom - normal) I just realized the Jabberwock probably would have sat still.
22 - Wraith - normal (weakened once, but came out +2 max HP)
22 - Dragon - poly (to Xeroc - normal) (after monster detection)
22 - Jabberwock - poly (to Snake)
21 - Troll - normal
21 - Griffin - poly (to Hobgoblin)
20 - Vampire - normal
19 - Troll - normal

I also realized I was doing the doorway strategy wrong. I was supposed to sit on space in from the threshold, not ON the threshold.

Is there a way I can post a video on the run on youtube? Maybe we can direct some traffic to elwin's site. Also, when I watch the ttyrec it's kind of a jumbled mess. Is that true for everyone or am I doing something wrong?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on August 08, 2016, 03:42:49 PM
More cruelty...

I had the best run ever last night in terms of HP gains. I had a ridiculously high amount by exp level 8. In the high 70s perhaps. But the run had zero chance. I still had my base mace, I found no potions of STR, and I had no get out of jail free cards except a pair of scrolls of teleportation. I had absolutely no answer for Trolls, so as soon as I faced one I teleported right next to a Venus Flytrap. I tested my unidentified wand on him and it was a wand of haste. I burned my other scroll of teleportation to get the heck out of there and it teleported me right back to the Troll. No chance.

And just had yet another run ruined by Rattlesnakes.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Vanguard on August 11, 2016, 12:08:53 AM
Spent some time reveling in my victory. Ahh, glory days... here's a fight summary of the tough floors.

Dang, that's intense.  How strong was your guy?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on August 15, 2016, 01:23:40 PM
Having issues on my laptop that I have the ttyrec reader on...

I think my two handed sword was +2, +2 and I think my strength was about 19 most of the time with a 20 max?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on September 01, 2016, 07:59:54 PM
Had a deep run end the other day. I was disappointed. I had a great use of my scroll of scare monster killing a Griffin, Dragon, and something else with it. On the next floor there were few rooms connected by long hallways. I figured I could play hit & run in the hallways to kill most enemies. I just could not get to the stairs, and as I was playing hit & run with a Griffin I ran right into a Medusa. I had a couple tricks up my sleeve, but one of them was teleportation which I was guessing wouldn't be very helpful unless I was really lucky. Still - hate to leave any cards on the table when I'm that deep.

Had a funny series of events leading to my demise this morning. Fell down a trapdoor right next to a Flytrap. Polymorphed it into something manageable. Soon thereafter, stepped on a teleportation trap, then down another trapdoor - again putting me right next to a Flytrap. Had to burn another polymorph charge, but at least it worked. But by this point I was way underleveled and failed attempts to polymorph a Troll into something easier spelled death.

Another thing I'm noticing about more successful runs is that I often have good luck finding plenty of stuff. Obvious, I know, but it means that the more trapdoors I fall down or the more dead-end hallways or the more mazes I find, the less stuff I find. It doesn't even necessarily have to be good stuff - even identifying bad stuff is extremely helpful, especially early in the run.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on September 07, 2016, 04:05:24 PM
I had one of my most interesting runs this weekend playing Rogue on Roku. Rogue on Roku is not nearly as good as online, but my wife took my monitor when hers died. The controls are clumsier and any item you normally would identify by typing in a descriptor - that doesn't exist. So you would have to take a paper and pen to track what's what. I'm too lazy for that, so it's frustrating.

I got to Level 25 and was in a great position to get to the Amulet, although not a very good chance at ascending. I had incredible luck with potions of raise level - I found a total of four, although one was wasted early on as I hadn't identified it yet. I ended up at experience level 12. I did have a two handed sword, but found no enchantments. I can't recall my strength, which would be important to know.

I found four rings and identified them. Two of them were worthless rings of searching. The other two were rings of slow digestion. They're nice to have, but I found plenty of food, so they were completely unnecessary.

I had much better luck with wands - two wands of slow monster and two wands of teleport away.

The critical moment came on Level 25. I was in the bottom left room and had already searched the other two rooms in the left column and all three rooms in the middle column. I did not see a way to get to the right column. This room was two spaces tall and very long. I dashed toward the end and found a sleeping Medusa. You might recall I made a mistake in this exact same scenario in my successful run.

I believe what I should have done in this moment is hit her when I was adjacent to her. Had I just left the room to search the other three rooms I was afraid she would have awoken and followed me. Instead, I backed up to the clear end of the room, fired four projectiles, then planned to move down to the space adjacent to the threshold at the same moment she appeared out of the darkness thinking this would ensure I would not be confused. Wrong. As I moved down one space, she moved adjacent to me out of the darkness and it said I was confused. I was one space away from the hallway where I am certain I could have beaten her in combat despite being confused. Instead, my move put me above her and I was in peril had I not used one of my remaining tricks.

I used my final scroll of teleportation, and what do you know, it moved me to the top room in the column of three unsearched rooms. Certainly the stairs would be here as there were only a handful of tiles beyond the Medusa. No luck in the first room and no luck in the second room. On my way to the bottom and third room, I had to use my second-to-last charge of slow monster to defeat a Black Unicorn. Right behind that was... another Black Unicorn. I had to use my final charge to beat him. When I got to the room it was only four tiles and no stairs.  I still had no idea where the hidden doorway was to the rest of the level.  I searched a ton and for a moment started walking on every tile praying for a trapdoor. Then I realized how many monsters I must be spawning and quit. Suddenly a Griffin was on me. I was able to defeat him in combat, but I had to burn my two potions of healing to do it.  I finally find the hidden doorway and take out a Vampire. I move back toward the room where the Medusa was, realizing that I would find her on the way and probably more monsters. I find a Medusa in a hallway and beat her without being confused. She drops a scroll in the space to my left. But in that instant another Medusa followed and this time she did confuse me. Despite the confusion, I was able to move left to pick up the scroll and it was a scroll of hold monster. I rested until I was no longer confused, and continued to rest until I had full HP all the while knowing it would just spawn more hell. I then defeated the Medusa.

By this point I was out of all my tricks. I don't even recall what happened next but I died. Terrible luck on that level. Of all the places for those stairs to be...  If I could turn back time I would have just attacked that Medusa when I was adjacent to her, won the fight (assuming she didn't confuse me), and then hit the stairs to the level that would have had the Amulet. And I still would have had a scroll of teleportation, two potions of healing, and two charges on my wand of slow monster. It was a punch in the gut.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Lord_Mork on September 08, 2016, 11:54:27 AM
I had one of my most interesting runs this weekend playing Rogue on Roku.

Neat! Which version of Roku? And did the game cost money?
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on September 08, 2016, 01:07:23 PM
I believe I have a Roku 3 and it costs 99 cents. I've emailed with the guy that ported it.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on September 19, 2016, 04:52:24 PM
Wow, I've been playing this over a year and I just realized that weapons can be found already enchanted. I had no idea. I was convinced that maces, long swords, and two handed swords could only be found cursed or unenchanted, and that only projectiles could be found enchanted.

This morning I found a +3, +0 long sword. It kicked ass. Unfortunately, I had no GOOJFC and the first Medusa I found killed me.

I've had lots of interesting runs recently, but the common theme is that I'll get one or two things that are keys to victory, but then get shut out of other necessary things.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: ant on December 05, 2016, 03:21:43 PM
i'm not sure which version you normally play, but the
code i am looking at it seems like about a 15% chance of
a weapon being +'ed (1-3) and 10% chance of being
cursed (-1 - -3).
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on April 12, 2017, 04:52:27 PM
It's been a long time since the last post.  I'm still playing, although not with any good results.

I further believe now that early trapdoors can deal a severe blow to your chances, especially if you haven't had an opportunity to pick up all the treasures.  You need all the stuff you can get - good or bad.  You need those early battles for leveling up. I also have noticed this bizarre phenomenon that when I get a trapdoor, I don't just get one. It is not unusual that once I get one, that I get them for three consecutive floors.

My current avg score is 973. I would love to get that up to 1,000.  But even more I would like another total victory :)
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: Squeeealer on April 14, 2017, 07:44:30 PM
I just had the amazing combo of stealth and slow digestion. For the first time ever. Certainly I've had them before, but I have a hard time getting rings ID'd.

Unfortunately, it was not to be.  I was not finding the stairs fast enough. I had to use up my scroll of scare monster on a single Black Unicorn. I burned through my six charges of teleport away quickly, four of them on the same damn Black Unicorn. I did love my wand of slow monster and used it to beat back-to-back Griffins. I think I gained levels with both kills. Speaking of which, I was able to use my potion of gain level as soon as I attained level 7, and that was helpful. I did find a two handed sword, but I had already used my two enchants on my base mace.

The worst thing of all was all the times Wraiths knocked me down a level.  Finally, one of them knocked me down two levels and I was screwed.

That still was not the end of me.  I ended up on a floor where I had explored 8 of the 9 areas on the floor, and the stairs must have been in the final one.  Had I had luck finding stairs or falling down trapdoors, this was a winnable game.
Title: Re: Rogue - let's beat it
Post by: jim on April 14, 2017, 08:02:41 PM
GO ON MY SON